What was the Forge incident?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Corlagon
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 6 2007, 14:49

If they have blasters, readers usually are warned before hand. HoMM players weren't.


Then that's primarily down to the players' ignorance of the game world. The developers aren't to blame for that. And, even if we overlook the fact that Might and Magic VII's ending was a clear indicator of the Forge's introduction into Heroes, the players were 'warned' beforehand by the developers, which is how they managed to kick up a storm about it before the game's release. Otherwise, we'd be playing with the Forge town today.

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Postby AngelEyes » Oct 6 2007, 17:35

I admit I was anti-Forge at first. Like some others here, I had only previous experience with the Might and Magic universe was Heroes 2. So, to me, the Forge felt very unnatural.

However, looking back years later, I do kinda wish they had gone ahead with the Forge. I never really liked the Conflux and I now feel the Forge might have added a unique element to the HoMM universe, provided it was handled correctly.

Of course, the 'handling it correctly' issue is the big key here.

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Postby ByteBandit » Oct 6 2007, 18:00

I liked what was mentioned here earlier, that if the Forge town was introducd, it should'nt be mechanical. but rather more Alchemist. That would've made more sense. And not necessarily redrawn HoMM3 creatures, but rather the introduction of new ones. A mechanical town somehow does not really fit into the HoMM3 world. IMHO, I beleive 3DO should've introduced something along the lines of a Drow town. That would've made more sense than wrenches and oil.
All in all I guess you could say I am one of those that are anti-Forge. There are so many other town types that could've fit in so much better.

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Postby Darmani » Oct 6 2007, 18:16

Corlagon wrote:
If they have blasters, readers usually are warned before hand. HoMM players weren't.


Then that's primarily down to the players' ignorance of the game world. The developers aren't to blame for that. And, even if we overlook the fact that Might and Magic VII's ending was a clear indicator of the Forge's introduction into Heroes, the players were 'warned' beforehand by the developers, which is how they managed to kick up a storm about it before the game's release. Otherwise, we'd be playing with the Forge town today.


I said HoMM players. I did not say M&M players. I did not say HoMM players who also read HoMM forums. My point stands*.

Someone who played HoMM 1, HoMM 2+ PoL, HoMM 3, and then played HoMM 3 AB with no other contact with the M&M world would be absolutely shocked at the introduction of the Forge. My 8-year-old self would have been one of those people (minus PoL).

Of course, after reading this thread, I am now pro-Forge, agree that this was where they sold their soul, and wish NWC would have gone along with it. That doesn't mean I can't argue that HoMM players would have been shocked, however.


*No, I am not latently reinterpreting my statement to hide an oversight. That's what I meant from the beginning.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 6 2007, 18:47

No, I am not latently reinterpreting my statement to hide an oversight. That's what I meant from the beginning.


Fair enough, though you might have detailed what you meant. 'Heroes players' is hardly a specific term. Anyway, once again, there was plenty of warning in Might and Magic. There was evidently a lot more warning on the Internet or fan wars wouldn't have broken out. In the event that you really had only played Heroes, you'd be pretty shocked, but that's what was coming to you for not keeping up to speed with the storyline. So what. If you really had a hardcore dislike of the Forge, you wouldn't play the campaign, as that's all it concerned, not the rest of the game. I'm sure the natives of Antagarich would have been a little surprised too if they saw robots traipsing across the countryside. Serves them right for not paying attention.

Someone who played HoMM 1, HoMM 2+ PoL, HoMM 3, and then played HoMM 3 AB with no other contact with the M&M world would be absolutely shocked at the introduction of the Forge.


Like just about all of us, I was in the same boat as you. I'd started with Heroes III, and had never played Might and Magic beforehand. However, I was absolutely shocked in a good way when I learned about all this sci-fi stuff. I felt it was what kept Might and Magic well away from the abyss of generic fantasy. Give me Kastore and the Forge any day.

Of course, after reading this thread, I am now pro-Forge, agree that this was where they sold their soul, and wish NWC would have gone along with it. That doesn't mean I can't argue that HoMM players would have been shocked, however.


And there we have it. Reasoning triumphs once again. Behold the difference in opinion when you actually understand the storyline and are aware of the direction in which 3DO was heading towards. :D
Last edited by Corlagon on Oct 6 2007, 19:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Pol » Oct 6 2007, 19:01

How people can be against forge with that excellent Topless Naga as the top tier unit?

Damn, I will never understand. That would be a new blood into veins of 3DO mixing fantasy with sci-fi. I believe that it would be refreshing.
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Postby Darmani » Oct 6 2007, 22:11

Corlagon wrote:In the event that you really had only played Heroes, you'd be pretty shocked, but that's what was coming to you for not keeping up to speed with the storyline. So what. If you really had a hardcore dislike of the Forge, you wouldn't play the campaign, as that's all it concerned, not the rest of the game. I'm sure the natives of Antagarich would have been a little surprised too if they saw robots traipsing across the countryside. Serves them right for not paying attention.


Here we have the one major flaw in your post:

A company is not supposed to make things hard for its users. Nintendo could very easily give you only one life in Super Mario Bros. The makers of Trivial Pursuit could very easily make cards with extraordinarily obscure questions (so, how many Wicket Men are there on a 43-Man Squamish team?). Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman could easily leave out all information of what a draconian is in their Dragonlance books and expect all readers to read enough AD&D manuals to follow along anyway. Or, more closely, when R.A. Salvatore mentioned Cadderly in his Drizzt Do'Urden books, he could have left out all information about him and assumed the reader already knew all about Cadderly from his Cleric Quintet.

They don't, however. As people trying to create sellable products, it is the burden of the producer to make their product easy to use and understand by most users. And thus, they did. Nintendo gave you extra lives; Trivial Pursuit's makers focus on questions that someone in a crowd has a good chance of knowing; Weis&Hickman/Salvatore include 'redundant' background on draconians/Cadderly.

And, so it would have been with the Forge. It was NWC's/3DO's responsibility to at the very least drop hints about the Sci-Fi backdrop of HoMM before AB. Please don't lean too much on the pleasant plot twist argument. Maybe it's a pleasant plot twist to play through M&M 1 and suddenly encounter aliens. The Forge would have been more like having M&M 1 contain no references to Sci-Fi, and then had "Cyborg" as one of the available race choices when you first load up M&M 2.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 6 2007, 22:40

I'm not really trying to argue with you at all, nor am I trying to have a debate here. I just want you to see the reason why 3DO wanted to make a sci-fi town. Things aren't in black and white here. 3DO did what they did because of the story and thus the benefits toward the story are how I'm going to spin things. They probably didn't drop hints in Heroes III precisely because of what you're saying - the shock factor. Nobody who hadn't played Might and Magic VII expected the Forge. The surprise of all this futuristic stuff packed into their 'fantasy' game was obviously too much to handle.

I don't pretend to understand the minds of game developers, I'm merely trying to point out that there were many good reasons to include the Forge.

Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman could easily leave out all information of what a draconian is in their Dragonlance books and expect all readers to read enough AD&D manuals to follow along anyway. Or, more closely, when R.A. Salvatore mentioned Cadderly in his Drizzt Do'Urden books, he could have left out all information about him and assumed the reader already knew all about Cadderly from his Cleric Quintet.


You assume that 3DO wouldn't have included any backstory of any type on the Forge, as though you boot up the game and there's a load of cyborgs across your map without any reason for being. NWC weren't idiots. I have no doubt that they'd have eased players into the Forge with nice long text events packed with references to MM7's plot, just like MM6 was packed with references to Heroes II. As another example, Roland was rescued from the Kreegans in MM7. We don't know that from the offset, though it's explained to us clearly and well in scenario 5.

The Forge would have been more like having M&M 1 contain no references to Sci-Fi, and then had "Cyborg" as one of the available race choices when you first load up M&M 2.


...Not quite. There was no reason whatsoever to have Cyborgs as a playable race in MM2. There were plenty of reasons to include a Forge faction in AB.

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Postby Darmani » Oct 7 2007, 0:55

Again and again, you miss the point completely.

I understand perfectly why NWC wanted the Forge, and should have put it in there. All I've argued in this thread is that it would have shocked and alienated HoMM fans to include the Forge without dropping any hints as to how their inclusion makes sense in any of the earlier HoMM games.

I have no doubt that they'd have eased players into the Forge with nice long text events packed with references to MM7's plot,


Yes, and Margaret Weis could write a Dragonlance book tomorrow in which the evil deity Takhisis decides to travel to the Prime Material Plane from the Abyss in a giant tunneling machine, along with lots of flavor text about how the Abyss is really an underground facility and not another dimension. Dragonlance readers would be horrified nonetheless, as Margaret would be radically altering everyone's understanding of the backstory out of the blue. Maybe the giant tunneling machine was well-warned against beforehand inside the book, but nothing beforehand have any sign that anything of the sort belongs in the series (with the exception of crude Gnomish machinery).

So, while M&M players would have been well prepared for the Forge, for exclusive HoMM players, it would have been as if Margaret Weis wrote the aforementioned book.

...Not quite. There was no reason whatsoever to have Cyborgs as a playable race in MM2. There were plenty of reasons to include a Forge faction in AB.


That is 100% irrelevant. All analogies and metaphors are wrong if you look at the wrong aspects*. According to a line in Shakespeare, Juliet is the sun. According to you, that would mean there was a giant ball of hot gas very close to Romeo. I wonder why he wasn't fried?

I meant that the kind of shock at seeing the Forge town would have been the same as in the aforementioned alternate history of the M&M series. It would have been a "Where the heck did that come from? Is this the same game series?" rather than a "Woah...there's an unforeseen twist."


*Unless is reflective. Statements like "Juliet is like Juliet" are (worthless) exceptions.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 7 2007, 9:14

Again and again, you miss the point completely.


Do I? I don't recall denying at all, let alone again, that it would have shocked HoMM players. It seems that you've overlooked some of my post. Allow me to present it to you again.

They probably didn't drop hints in Heroes III precisely because of what you're saying - the shock factor. Nobody who hadn't played Might and Magic VII expected the Forge. The surprise of all this futuristic stuff packed into their 'fantasy' game was obviously too much to handle.

I don't pretend to understand the minds of game developers, I'm merely trying to point out that there were many good reasons to include the Forge.


There really isn't any point in arguing about something we agree upon. Now, moving on.

I understand perfectly why NWC wanted the Forge, and should have put it in there.


Alright. That's great. Then I'm just perfectly happy to forget about all the rest. My work here is done. If you want to argue about the shock factor or whatever, please do it with someone else, because:

I'm not really trying to argue with you at all, nor am I trying to have a debate here. I just want you to see the reason why 3DO wanted to make a sci-fi town.

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Postby Odish » Oct 7 2007, 11:49

OK, you're in a loop people. break it up, break it up...

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Postby Meandor » Oct 7 2007, 12:06

It seems that you either love the idea of Forge or not and there is no point in debating over this topic.
...

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Postby Darmani » Oct 7 2007, 13:37

Corlagon wrote:
Again and again, you miss the point completely.


Do I? I don't recall denying at all, let alone again, that it would have shocked HoMM players. It seems that you've overlooked some of my post. Allow me to present it to you again.


If you didn't deny it, you wouldn't have argued against me. I've never tried to say anything else in this thread other than that it would have shocked HoMM players and thus NWC should have dropped hints about the Sci-Fi background earlier in the series. It's pretty hard to argue against someone without arguing against what they're saying. ;)

Anyway, I would like to thank the previous three posters for trying to end this squabble; I would have otherwise tried to do the same in this post, and run the risk of my opponent being carried away in trying to continue.

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Postby Ohma » Oct 7 2007, 15:53

If you didn't deny it, you wouldn't have argued against me. I've never tried to say anything else in this thread other than that it would have shocked HoMM players and thus NWC should have dropped hints about the Sci-Fi background earlier in the series.


Well, to be fair they did kinda' almost nearly really vaguly imply that Ironfist was from another world (or dimension, either way...) in the manual for HoMM 1. But other than that, yeah, no hint whatsoever that cyber-zombies with rocket launchers and lasers for eyes would ever make an apperance.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 7 2007, 15:56

Ohma wrote:Well, to be fair they did kinda' almost nearly really vaguely imply that Ironfist was from another world


Coz changing sun color is rather vague...
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Postby Ohma » Oct 7 2007, 16:03

ThunderTitan wrote: Coz changing sun color is rather vague...


Well, there was also a mention that gravity was lower than where Ironfist came from. But yah, it was vague in that people getting transported from another world isn't all that out there in fantasy, even less so when what description of the other world you get makes it seem more or less like the only differences are slightly smaller sun, higher gravity, and not as magical. (or at least Goetherk...err whatever his name was...wasn't as powerful as most of the magic users in HoMM)
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Postby HodgePodge » Oct 7 2007, 16:53

Pol wrote:How people can be against forge with that excellent Topless Naga as the top tier unit?

Damn, I will never understand. That would be a new blood into veins of 3DO mixing fantasy with sci-fi. I believe that it would be refreshing.

Topless Nagas?!? The first time I heard about them was much later at the Round Table. Since most Heroes players are guys, topless Nagas might … um … increase their bloodflow, but they wouldn't do a thing for me. :-D Still, since the original Forge dispute (which I was firmly anti-Forge) my attitude has softened a bit, but I wouldn't trade the Fabulous Conflux for the Forge.

ThunderTitan wrote:
Ohma wrote:Well, to be fair they did kinda' almost nearly really vaguely imply that Ironfist was from another world

Coz changing sun color is rather vague...

Really, I had no idea Rollie, Archie & Nicky were aliens! ;|

ByteBandit wrote:I liked what was mentioned here earlier, that if the Forge town was introducd, it should'nt be mechanical. but rather more Alchemist. That would've made more sense. …

Yes, I agree. People may have been much more welcoming to the Forge if it were an Alchemical Town instead of Mechanical. I know I would've been. :hoo:
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Postby Pol » Oct 7 2007, 17:19

I guess that 3DO planed to introduce both towns at right time. But here weren't released further information, so it's hard to assume more.

However these Nagas had also lasers, that sounds pretty convicing ain't it? :tonguehands:

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Oct 7 2007, 17:40

HodgePodge wrote:Topless Nagas?!?


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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Oct 7 2007, 17:44

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