HoMM II: Best level 6 creature

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

In my opinion, the best level 6 creature is:

Crusader
3
6%
Cyclops
1
2%
Phoenix
10
21%
Black Dragon
20
42%
Titan
14
29%
Bone Dragon
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 48

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Metathron
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Unread postby Metathron » 15 Nov 2007, 20:22

Jolly Joker wrote:Growth factor? Ah, yes. Right. That would make Storm Elementals still best level 2 - but Phoenix best level 7 and Sprites best level 1 - undisputedly I presume.
Why?

I can understand the odds being in favour of the phoenix due to the insane growth, but why should the sprites and storm elementals be the outright best, still less indisputably so?
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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 15 Nov 2007, 23:41

When I was playing RoE and reading about AB I thought that the Phoenix' imens growt will create a huge advance, but than I realized that even with growt and speed it's a weak unit. The Phoenix' only greatness imo is the first cast opportunity.

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UndeadHalfOrc
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 15 Nov 2007, 23:46

What about rebirth?

What about the fact that 4 out of 7 units from the lineup are immune to armageddon?

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Muszka
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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 00:43

Sorry. I forgot the Rebirth. But even with that they are still weak. But that's only my experience.

Too respect the topic; In H2, they had no rebirth and the first cast was useless contra Black Dragon except Mirror Image and Mass Haste/Haste

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Unread postby Darmani » 16 Nov 2007, 01:14

Muszka wrote:Too respect the topic; In H2, they had no rebirth and the first cast was useless contra Black Dragon except Mirror Image and Mass Haste/Haste
You're forgetting something: Dragon Slayer

(And Blood Lust, and Stoneskin, and Steelskin, and Bless, and Mass Slow, and....quite a few other things.)

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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 02:22

If you cast bless, mass slow, dragon slayer, and things like that, you just wasted, your cast, and when the Black Dragon is coming, (and that's the next move, without the three spells I've mentioned) I'll cast a mass slow (suposedly I have) and with that I have the next cast.
But all that is just theory... Reality rarely/never meets theory imo.

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Unread postby Darmani » 16 Nov 2007, 03:19

Okay, what you said is true of Mass Slow.

It's not true of any of the others. If casting Dragon Slayer/Bless let's my Phoenixes kill 3 Black Dragons before retaliation rather than 2, it makes a difference in that A)Phoenixes will be retaliated against by a weaker force B)You've just lost another Black Dragon than you would have otherwise.

(Of course, in the above case, having the first strike is just as important as the first cast.)

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Nov 2007, 08:45

Metathron wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:Growth factor? Ah, yes. Right. That would make Storm Elementals still best level 2 - but Phoenix best level 7 and Sprites best level 1 - undisputedly I presume.
Why?

I can understand the odds being in favour of the phoenix due to the insane growth, but why should the sprites and storm elementals be the outright best, still less indisputably so?
Speed 9, No-Retaliation Flyer, damage 1-3 and a Growth of 50 is an incredible creeping force. Centaur Captains have a growth of 28 only, so Sprites have nearly double as much in numbers. True, in an end battle the Caps may be more durable, but for heroes 3 mechanics a level 1 unit that is its own creeping force, coming in these numbers, doing enough damage with speed NINE (heroes are FAST on the adv. map) must be considered best level ONE unit without any discussion. Note further that the speed 9/no-retal combo allows taking on the speed 3 and 4 walkers in small numbers even.
For the Storm Elemental: 25 HPs (for a level 2 shooter!) = 300 HPs for 12 units. The 18 Wolf Raiders have 180; 16 Lizardmen come with 240. 18 Marksmen come with 180 as well. 20 Battle Dwarves have 400, okay. Next, attack and defense 9, Gargoles and Dwarves have 7,7 as next best, while Raiders have attack 8, Lizards Defense 8. Speed is 8, beaten only by Gargs by 1. So what about damage? 2-8 with attack 9. Average damage of 5 is the same as Marksmen with their 2 shots. That means, 18 Marksmen will do an average of an unmodified 90 damage compared to the modified 69 of the Storms. However, Blessed, Marksmen will do 108 damage only, Storms 110.
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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 12:02

@Darmani.
It's true, a Phoenix can kill 1,2, or even more (depending on the greatness of the armies) Black Dragons just because of the first cast. That's rarely such an advantage, what can turn a battle,
but after than it's the black dragons turn.
That's why is more favorable imo a mass haste, when GDruids, and Elves comes before dragon, also Unicorns (don't know if that reaches though). That's a big thing. And in that comes the Phoenix' true strenght, not the 100 HP , 'cos they fall as grass under scythe.

@JJ
I agree that stormies are the best 2nd lvl unit, though they have a big disadvantage, as you've said, their number is small, and you can let them die, 'cos resurrection can't help.
How about the Sprites, don't forget ther fragileness. They strike the first two times, but then they fall.
And of conflux supremacy? Beside sprites, phoenix numbers, storm elementals supremacy over 2nd lvl units, and Melementars' magic imunity and first cast Conflux has no power.

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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Nov 2007, 12:23

About Phoenixes and Black Dragons in H 2:
The difference is that Phoenixes will be available much earlier than Black Dragons and are much cheaper as well, so a battle between a Sorceress and a Warlock will very probably don't see a direct comparison between them. The good Sorceress player will face the Warlock before he gets to Black Dragons.

For H 3, Conflux and Sprites the fragileness doesn't count much in the time you mainly use them. They develop one hell of a lot of creeping power, allowing a conflux player to move really FAST, no matter the difficulty (and the higher the difficulty the better for them). Even on impossible difficulty you may build the Pyre in week 2, which means you have 6 Firebirds on day 15, an incredible force that easily beats everything out there.
With Conflux you have to move fast and hit fast - you'll have a superior hero - level-wise -, a magic hero at least expert in one magic school and an extremely dangerous and fast BASIC level 7 monster that is cheap as well. I mean, compare the Firebird with, for example, a Green Dragon - the latter cost 2400, has the same attack and defense, but deals an average 10 more damage with additional 30 HPs - but 5 less speed. For 1500 Gold I'll take the Firebird any time - and you get double as many.

So the bottom line is, against Conflux you can't win - except when the Conflux loses.
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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 12:42

It's somehow a blind opinion. But everybody can have his. And I think there's no reason too argue about it. If you are just as stuborn as me than we'll never settle the Speed vs. Might discussion.
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 16 Nov 2007, 12:46

What gets me is that after all these years Jolly Joker and myself seem to be the only players who see the Conflux for what it truly is - a poorly designed town, made ON THE SPOT due to lack of preparation and time. Look at the AB artwork (can still see Forge remnants), the AB campaign, the pathetic AB intro movie - EVERYTHING about the change from Forge to Conflux was rushed, and as such, EXTREMELY POORLY playtested.


Side note, funny how most everybody now uses the term "creeping" - which was invented in Warcraft 3 because its neutral creatures are called, creeps :)

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Unread postby Kristo » 16 Nov 2007, 13:54

Ok kids we're getting a bit OT here. If you want to discuss the unbalancedness of Conflux, please start a new thread.

UndeadHalfOrc, how does the Sorceress vs. Warlock battle shape up with your lowered Dragon growth rate? I'd expect 50% more Phoenixes than Dragons plus another 1-4 Phoenixes depending on how good the players were at acquiring their rare resources. My gut tells me that a Warlock-led Warlock army still wins that fight, even if a Barbarian leads the Sorceress troops.

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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 16 Nov 2007, 17:34

I didn't see any straight up full castle army vs army duels (I play alone), but I would guess that the sorceress comes out on top until the Warlock can get a good 3 weeks worth of production of black dragons. I have to admit that having 0 dragons in the tower when you first build it hurts quite a lot at first. :(
Still I made some test duels, and if both castles get their fully upg. stuff at the same time, 2 black dragons can kill 4 phoenixes.

But I have the mention that it's not the only change I made. Among other minor unit changes, the one major change I made was the primary stat probability for magic heroes. Sorcs, Warlocks and Wizards now have a much better chance of getting att/def before level 10. Sorcs' knowledge probability was lowered from 50% to 30%.Her stats for level 2-9 now are : 20% att , 25% def, 25% pow, 30% knwl.

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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 18:59

Mostly agree.
How you mean that 0 dragons in the newly built dragon tower?
Don't forget, that when Green Tower is built, dragons are already acumulating, and with some luck you can build both red & black tower, but in the worst case in two weeks you have them. Then you already have a quite army.
And I think that even green dragons can take out phoenixes one on one.
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 16 Nov 2007, 19:59

Muszka wrote:Mostly agree.
How you mean that 0 dragons in the newly built dragon tower?

I meant precisely that. In my mod, I lowered the BASIC growth of dragons and titans from 1 per week to 0 per week. It's the well structure that pumps it to 2 per week.

The initial amount of creatures in any dwelling you just build is equal to the basic growth. Since that's 0, then your freshly built green tower has 0 green dragons in it, you have to wait for the next week for it to produce 2 dragons.

Note that I discovered that this mod does NOT change the growth of external structures (ie dragon city). Thank god for that.

For those interested, I also modded Heroes 1 dragon growth to 2 per week and made sorc/warlock better.

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Unread postby Muszka » 16 Nov 2007, 20:40

Interesting.
I've read somewhere about that, but I forgot it completly.
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 16 May 2008, 14:34

Since then, I have reduced the cost of the Green Tower from 15000 to 13000 gold, and Cloud Castle even more significantly from 12500 to 7500. This should help them getting the basic Level 6 building faster to compensate for having 0 units inside when first built.

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Unread postby Muszka » 16 May 2008, 14:46

But you increased it for the uprg. buildings? Aren't you?
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Unread postby UndeadHalfOrc » 16 May 2008, 15:00

Yeah, but that is not a factor for growth. As long as the basic building is there, the population grows. :)

Overall dragon cost is still 25000, overall Titan cost is now 24000 (Wizard's castle is still more expensive in gold than Warlock's)


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