HoMM II: Best level 5 creature

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

Moderator: Moderators

In my opinion, the best level 5 creature is:

Champion
8
18%
War Troll
4
9%
Unicorn
5
11%
Hydra
4
9%
Archmage
16
36%
Power Lich
8
18%
 
Total votes: 45

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

HoMM II: Best level 5 creature

Postby Metathron » Nov 2 2007, 22:21

ImageImageImageImageImageImage

Image

Should be the toughest one yet!

P.S. I would like to ask for confirmation on two points I am unsure about.
The first is the Champion's jousting ability - does the HoMM II unit even have it or am I confusing them with later incarnations? I'm quite confident they do, though.
The second is the archmage's dispel ability, that is how high the probability for its success is. I don't remember if it triggers on every attack, though I seem to remember that it does.
Last edited by Metathron on Nov 2 2007, 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

User avatar
Omega_Destroyer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6939
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Location: Corner of your Eye

Postby Omega_Destroyer » Nov 2 2007, 22:32

The Power Liches ability only affects your troops that aren't undead if I recall correctly.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

User avatar
Darmani
Blood Fury
Blood Fury
Posts: 468
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA

Postby Darmani » Nov 2 2007, 22:35

I have the manual open in front of me.

Champions lack Jousting ability.

Archmage chance to dispel is 20%.

Somehow I got it in my head that Power Liches did not injure undead allied troops. Last time I tried though, that certainly wasn't the case. The manual also makes no mention of it.

User avatar
Suleman
Demon
Demon
Posts: 323
Joined: 24 Dec 2005

Postby Suleman » Nov 2 2007, 22:37

Trolls aren't dominating in any respect but their growth, moderate cost and special ability seem to make up for it. I don't actually know much about Heroes II, so I'm shutting up for now.
"Yes, but what about David Beckham and the magic mushroom?"

I'm baaaaaack!

User avatar
Omega_Destroyer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6939
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Location: Corner of your Eye

Postby Omega_Destroyer » Nov 2 2007, 22:41

Well, either way, I still like how Power Liches can decimate groups of enemies.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

User avatar
dallasmavs41
Demon
Demon
Posts: 331
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Virginia

Postby dallasmavs41 » Nov 2 2007, 22:50

You're right in saying that this is the toughest so far. For me, the Champion wins it closely over the Hydra. The Champion's speed and cost greatly outrank the Hydra. Despite being extremely tough, the Hydra is just too slow for my tastes. It's really close though, so if anybody made a case for the Hydra, I wouldn't argue with it too much.

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

Postby Metathron » Nov 2 2007, 23:04

Thanks, Darmani. Duly noted and remedied.

Darmani wrote:Somehow I got it in my head that Power Liches did not injure undead allied troops.


Just like I was convinced about champions having the jousting ability. :)

Omega, the HoMM II liches really do harm your own units as well, so you must be confusing them with their cousins from III and V.

Personally, I am still not done deciding which of these are the best. The only unit that I have already eliminated from the equation are the liches, actually. It's their low attack value, cost and the fact that they can (and often do) harm your own troops that puts me off from voting for them.

Dallas: That's a great choice. I am seriously considering the champs myself. Too bad they don't have jousting after all; with that they would surely top this one.
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

User avatar
HodgePodge
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 3522
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby HodgePodge » Nov 3 2007, 0:45

Have to go with the Unicorns on this one. Not only are they a really beautiful creature, but they come with my favorite town type … and their blinding ability seems to hit more than 20% of the time.
Walk Softly & Respect All Life!

Click Here: Lords of War and Money … A Free & Fun Browser Game.

User avatar
Omega_Destroyer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6939
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Location: Corner of your Eye

Postby Omega_Destroyer » Nov 3 2007, 0:57

Why am I not surprised Hodge picked the unicorns? :)
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

User avatar
lordskeleton
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 128
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Sweden (You know, polar bears, close to switzerland)

Postby lordskeleton » Nov 3 2007, 1:55

Archmage

Though it usually takes a while to get them, with an attack of 12, dispel and no melee penalty they are definitely worth those 700g
"Every enemy I've met I've annihilated!"
"Ehm.. Oh yeah?... well... eh... You fight like a cow!"

User avatar
UndeadHalfOrc
Cyber Zombie
Cyber Zombie
Posts: 1362
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Nov 3 2007, 4:16

Archmages, because of their two awesome specials: no melee penalty and can penetrate Castle walls, both of which carried over to their H3 counterparts. Don't care much fo their Dispelling ability.

Their stats rock also. Very fast, decent HP, high attack.

Bottom line, in all my years playing H2, Archmages never disappointed me whenever I got them in my army. So it's no surprise they're the best level 5.

They can easily duel Hydras 1v1, who will be dead before they can reach them.

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Postby PhoenixReborn » Nov 3 2007, 4:35

I can confirm that power liches can hurt your own undead troops. I had gotten used to the h5 ones that don't, and when I went back to play a heroes 2 map I found out in a shocking manner.

User avatar
Darmani
Blood Fury
Blood Fury
Posts: 468
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA

Postby Darmani » Nov 3 2007, 5:26

Champions are like most either Knight units: Extremely cost-effective, yet overall inferior.

War Trolls are too low-defense. Their Regeneration ability scales poorly - it's great if you have 1 Troll against 1 Titan, and absolutely worthless if you have 20 Trolls against 20 Titans.

Unicorns are a pretty good unit.

Hydras are a castle defense unit. They're a beat to use, but they're hard to use due to their speed. If you get the Teleport spell though, then these could easily be the best.

Power Liches just plain suck. Low HP, low attack, and its often impossible to use them without hitting one of your own units.

I started thinking about this for a while before this thread was made, and I've never been tempted to vote for anything other than the Archmage. High attack and no melee penalty just do it.

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

Postby Metathron » Nov 3 2007, 11:18

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:Archmages, because of their two awesome specials: no melee penalty and can penetrate Castle walls, both of which carried over to their H3 counterparts.


Come again? :|

Anyhow, compared to the magi, for example, the trolls might have some slightly inferior statistics, but it should be taken into account that you get 1 MORE of them than the magi, so that ought to make up at least partially, if not wholly. Same goes for the champions.
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

User avatar
UndeadHalfOrc
Cyber Zombie
Cyber Zombie
Posts: 1362
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Nov 3 2007, 15:05

What, you didn't know that Mages' ranged attack damage in H2 and H3 ignored castle walls? I thought it was common knowledge :)

The H3 documentation says only the upgraded version can penetrate castle walls, but I tested it (with a test map) and that's ****. H2 Mage, H2 Archmage, H3 Mage and H3 Archmage ALL can do full damage to creatures behind castle walls. (...minus the range reduction in H3, but that's treated separately).

That ability is slightly less valuable in H2 because in that game, just having the Basic Archery skill makes ALL shooters have that special ability - not just mages.

User avatar
Kristo
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1548
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Location: Chicago, IL

Postby Kristo » Nov 3 2007, 15:34

I went with the Unicorns. This was another tough decision. I had it narrowed down to Champions, Unicorns, and Archmagi. You don't get enough Champions to offset their lower cost. It costs a lot more resources to get the Upg. Ivory Tower than it does the Fenced Meadow (remember everything you have to build to get there). Furthermore, Unicorns don't need to be upgraded to reach their full potential.

User avatar
darknessfood
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 4009
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Postby darknessfood » Nov 3 2007, 15:38

Voted Hydra! Yeah, the may be slow. But once at your opponent it kicks some serious but! Attacks enemies near you and the no retaliation kicks ass!

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

Postby Metathron » Nov 3 2007, 16:02

UndeadHalfOrc wrote:What, you didn't know that Mages' ranged attack damage in H2 and H3 ignored castle walls? I thought it was common knowledge :)

The H3 documentation says only the upgraded version can penetrate castle walls, but I tested it (with a test map) and that's ****. H2 Mage, H2 Archmage, H3 Mage and H3 Archmage ALL can do full damage to creatures behind castle walls. (...minus the range reduction in H3, but that's treated separately).

That ability is slightly less valuable in H2 because in that game, just having the Basic Archery skill makes ALL shooters have that special ability - not just mages.


Well, that was just so completely unbelievable to me that I had to go ahead and test it with a wizard with 22 Archmages sieging a wizard's town. And guess what - the arrow was BROKEN and the damage halved, so obviously you are confusing this with HoMM III.

Kristo wrote:You don't get enough Champions to offset their lower cost.


What do you mean? Why does their cost need offsetting? I think that for a change, the knight's unit is more than capable of standing side by side with the other factions'. Their only downside is their damage range, but it is a very minor disadvantage. They have good attack and defense, and the best speed and price.

I think the champions and trolls are overlooked, so let's see what we get when we incorporate weekly growth.

Champions: 200 hit points, 25-50 damage, 1875 gold.
Trolls: 200 hit points, 35-45 hit points, 3500 gold.
Unicorns: 160 hit points, 28-56 hit points, 2000 gold.
Hydras: 300 hit points, 24-48 hit points, 3200 gold.
Archmagi: 140 hit points, 28-36 hit points, 2800 gold.
Power liches: 140 hit points, 32-40 hit points, 3600 gold.

Why I won't vote for trolls is that they are a bit too expensive, but I would still choose them over the *gasp* archmagi.

The real competition gets down to the champions and the unicorns and the champions just manage to eke out a win due to their outstanding speed.

So, from top to bottom, my list goes like this:

Champions
Unicorns
War Trolls
Archmagi
Hydras
Power Liches
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

User avatar
Kristo
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1548
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Location: Chicago, IL

Postby Kristo » Nov 3 2007, 20:48

Hmm, that's a very convincing argument. I wanted at least one more Champion per week to "feel" like they were better. I would like to point out that you haven't considered Attack and Defense in your calculations. It proves the Champions vs. Unicorns point because they have the same stats, but don't be so quick to write off the others. This vote is a lot closer than your table makes it appear.

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

Postby Metathron » Nov 3 2007, 21:29

Kristo wrote:I would like to point out that you haven't considered Attack and Defense in your calculations. It proves the Champions vs. Unicorns point because they have the same stats, but don't be so quick to write off the others. This vote is a lot closer than your table makes it appear.


Sure, but I have taken into consideration only the stats subject to change when observed from the perspective of weekly growth. The other stats, those unaffected by creature growth, are still available from the table, so that's why I didn't write them down again.

But I agree that the vote is indeed very close. The gaps between my 1-5 picks are minimal, and even the liches aren't lagging too far behind.
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.


Return to “Heroes I-IV”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests