Looking backward: First impressions on HoMM4

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I have now finished all of the TGS campaigns, and so I can now comment on them, both by themselves, and on TGS as an expansion pack.

First, the campaigns. Most of them were enjoyable. I most enjoyed The Masters of Magic (Bohb's campaign) and Another Bard's Tale (Agraynel's campaign), as they had more of a need to play differently than I had previously.
In Bohb's, not being able to get any might skills for my main hero meant that I had to be a little clever in spell use, and creatures were more important later on than for the other campaigns, as Bohb's defense was very poor. I found summoning and ward spells to be the most important for him.
For Agranel, I had fun with the bard ability, and the 25% experience bonus I got from most battles, by the stealth bonus. This was the one campaign I restarted about a week in, so I could get a better hero build. (Once I found the quest to get GM stealth, I restarted so I could avoid taking any levels until I could finish the quest, and get about 10 free skills (3 or 4 in each of scouting, pathfininding, and stealth). Then I grabbed the experience in chests and scouting shrines to gain more skill. This was probably the most advanced first-map hero I had.
The other base campaigns were OK, but I got caught in a few development traps. For example, I took one too may combat skills for Kozuss in the first map, and as such I could never develop his order magic. (I had concentrated on chaos magic in map 1, and GMed in all of those skill by the end of map 2 - avoiding combat skills in the hop of getting the one extra order skill I needed to get back on track.) Kozuss eventually became an archmage by the time I got the order levels.
Th final campaign was rediculous. Although I don't think that any of my heores could have gone solo, all five combined was simple. I basically had one hero doing rediculous amounts of damage (killing 60 evil sorceresses in a melee attack is crazy!), two filling the field with quicksand to slow the walkers, and one doing healing/divine intervention to protect from the ranged ability (whether spells or normal ranged) 3 heroes with 100% magic resistance didn't hurt either.

The storylines ranged from OK to Good. Nothing particularly stunning, but nothing horrid either. I think I preferred most of the original campaigns to these.

As for the expansion itself, it was a bit disappointing. 4 new creatures, and a bunch or artifacts put it in line, content wise, with PoL and SoD. Definitely less content than AB or HoF (each of which added a faction to the game, in addition to the creatures and artifacts). The conservatories were a welcome site addition, once I found that I could use parchments to actually LEARN the spells. Although in later maps, I found them to be next to useless as I had most spells by then.

Anyway, I am now onto the WoW campaigns. I am not overly optimistic for this, as it is 3D0's last-ditch effort before bankrupcy, but I will see how that works out.
After those campaigns, I will finally install equillibrus and see how that changes the landscape. I do NOT plan on comparing Eq. with WoG, so don't ask

[Metathron]

Just a small correction; the behemoth like shooter is called a gargantuan, the gnasher is the might aligned piggy, and you have yet to meet it in WoW.

In my opinion, the Gathering Storm campaigns were much better than those of the second expansion, so I guess it's a good thing you're prepared in advance. The final scenario, however, is heaps of fun if only because it's unique!

[ThunderTitan]

You know, i have to admit, HoMM5 does have one thing the previous games lack, and that is decent(content wise) expansions... but of course H3 did start out with more towns.

[Angelspit]

Yes, but they all played the same way, more or less.

[ByteBandit]

Hi QD,
I just got a copy of HoMM4 (The original. UK version.) I played without all the patching and such at first and found the game almost impossible to play. Well, I have upgraded the game with the patches and have gotten back into playing this game again. It's nice not to have the virtual memory drain now.
As a result, I have been reading your posts about this game, as, I too, have been trying to play this game unobjectively. I must say, I agree with almost everything you have to say about HoMM4. This game is no better or no worse than any of the other Heroes series. It's just different, and takes some getting used to.
I like the object graphics, (trees, rocks, birds circling, etc.), the looks of the towns, and so on. These are exceptional compared to the previous HoMM games. I like the way the spell system is set up too. Your primaries are pretty well cut and dried. There are not so many choices as in HoMM3, let's say. I do like the Caravan system, as this allows me not to hire another hero to fortify my garrison.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I just finished the WoW campaigns. For this expansion, even less was added than in the previous one. The campaigns were all short, and with a level cap of 15 in the first scenario of each, I could usually solo the second and third maps. In particular, the death campaign was easy. I got grandmaster necromancy in map 1, and that was about all that I needed. The strength of this became all the more clear in the final campaign. Since I had played death last, I figured I'd continue with this hero. Well, needless to say it was an easy win. By the end of the first week, I had a dozen vampires, and by the end of week two I was in the twenties. Clobbering my neightbors was trivial at this point, as they had (at best) a sizable force or level 1 and 2 creatures, while spending most of their resources on things other than aiming for level 3 and 4 creatures. (by this point I had already gotten my bone dragons started, as I ignored everything except what I needed to get there- so the home could defend itself without me).
Those level 1 and 2 creatures were just what I needed to ensure no losses to my vampire stack, which quickly grew to the 60s in size.
Anyway, the only tough battle was in the second-to-last fight (the garrison outside Rylos) In that battle I lost all the ghosts, bone dragons, and dark chamions I had brought (since they were not in large enough quantity for vampiric touch spells to keep them alive). This left me into the final fight with just a hero and 148 vampires. I debated on one stack vs. 2 stack for them, but I left them togeth. No losses.
I might redo the last campaign with another hero sometime, but not right now. I will probably install equillibrus before the next time I play H4.

My overall opion on Heroes 4.
When I rate a game, I very rarely give the game a strict rating (like 50% or B+, or whatever). I usually rate it based on how much I think the game is worth paying for, relative to typical new-game prices. For instance, even a poor game might be worth picking up from the bargain bin. A great game would be worth a pre-order (although I never preorder games; I have never had a problem finding a game I wanted a few weeks after release)

The basic game is very good, and (at least in the fully-patched version I got) is definitely worth full release price. The fact that I got it in a bundle with H3 and all expansions for H3 and H4 on a single DVD is just that much sweeter.
The game plays very differently from the other Heroes games, and I can see why there are so many arguments about H4 being either the best or the worst Heroes game. The extreme focus on heroes gives a very different flavor, and may not be to the taste of many. I personally feel that the higher level heroes are too powerful, but that is another discussion altogether.
I also found that the clean-up phase in many maps was way too long. Since there is no 7-day timer when the last town is captured, like in other heroes games, most maps that didn't have a special victory condition had me spending several weeks of game time just trying to find the one 1st-level hero that happens to be wandering about, without enough strength to defeat anything. One time, that last hero was just high enough in level to have expert stealth, and so I not only needed a bunch of armies to search, but that all had to have level 3 or higher creatures to see it! Since many campaign maps severly limit the ability to get higher-level creatures, the became an even greater pain.
Fortunately, most of the campaign maps had special victories (such as hold all towns for 3 days), but this is probably the single most annoying aspect of the game.

The expansions, however, were very disappointing. Assuming they were reased at typical expansion prices (normally between 50% and 60% of a new game price - although at one time they were closer to 40%), then TGS was probably worth it - although just barely. I have already given my thoughts about this pack above.

WoW, however, is dismal in comparison to any expansion pack I have ever gotten for any game. With shorter campaigns, and a meager 3 new units (are there any other new things other than the creatures and their dwellings in WoW? I didn't notice any), This probably would barely be worth the shipping to get it by itself. This is probably in part due to the problems that 3DO was having, but that doesn't make it better, only understandable. Sort of.

Other than responding to any comments others may add, this will be the final post I make in this thread, as anything beyond now will definitely not be "first impressions" in any sense of the phrase. Finishing WoW now is pretty good timing for me, as TotE should be coming out very soon, and so I'll be able to continue with new stuff. That and Equilibrus should tide me over until the holidays

[HodgePodge]

I just finished the WoW campaigns. For this expansion, even less was added than in the previous one. The campaigns were all short, and with a level cap of 15 in the first scenario of each, I could usually solo the second and third maps. …

… I might redo the last campaign with another hero sometime, but not right now. I will probably install equillibrus before the next time I play H4.

My overall opion on Heroes 4.
When I rate a game, I very rarely give the game a strict rating (like 50% or B+, or whatever). I usually rate it based on how much I think the game is worth paying for, relative to typical new-game prices. For instance, even a poor game might be worth picking up from the bargain bin. A great game would be worth a pre-order (although I never preorder games; I have never had a problem finding a game I wanted a few weeks after release)

The basic game is very good, and (at least in the fully-patched version I got) is definitely worth full release price. The fact that I got it in a bundle with H3 and all expansions for H3 and H4 on a single DVD is just that much sweeter.
The game plays very differently from the other Heroes games, and I can see why there are so many arguments about H4 being either the best or the worst Heroes game. The extreme focus on heroes gives a very different flavor, and may not be to the taste of many. I personally feel that the higher level heroes are too powerful, but that is another discussion altogether. …

… The expansions, however, were very disappointing. Assuming they were reased at typical expansion prices (normally between 50% and 60% of a new game price - although at one time they were closer to 40%), then TGS was probably worth it - although just barely. I have already given my thoughts about this pack above.

WoW, however, is dismal in comparison to any expansion pack I have ever gotten for any game. With shorter campaigns, and a meager 3 new units (are there any other new things other than the creatures and their dwellings in WoW? I didn't notice any), This probably would barely be worth the shipping to get it by itself. This is probably in part due to the problems that 3DO was having, but that doesn't make it better, only understandable. Sort of.

… That and Equilibrus should tide me over until the holidays

Thanks, for your comments and thoughts QD. WoW is indeed terrible and the only advantage is to get the extra added dwellings, artifacts, etc. which came with the second expansion. Unfortunately, Equilibris won't help improve WoW much; but will make playing the scenario maps much more fun, especially the fan-made maps. I hope you'll enjoy playing them as much as I have. May I suggest these Fan-made Campaigns using Equilibris:

The Wind of Thorns by Wimfrits
The Saga of Despierrelles by Ururam-Tururam
Dragon's Fate by Jeff
The Gambler by Rakne Fne
Robin Hood by Rakne Fne
Champions by Crusard
Planeswalker & Planeswalker II by Robenhagen

Check out Psychobabble's Map Picks too.

[ThunderTitan]

First impression about H4:

WHY IN HEAVENS NAME DID THEY RELEASE THIS 6-12 MONTHS BEFORE IT WAS FINISHED?! WHY?

[Humakt]

First impression about H4:

WHY IN HEAVENS NAME DID THEY RELEASE THIS 6-12 MONTHS BEFORE IT WAS FINISHED?! WHY?

Duh. So that I could start making maps early of course.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

Thanks, for your comments and thoughts QD. WoW is indeed terrible and the only advantage is to get the extra added dwellings, artifacts, etc. which came with the second expansion. Unfortunately, Equilibris won't help improve WoW much; but will make playing the scenario maps much more fun, especially the fan-made maps. I hope you'll enjoy playing them as much as I have. May I suggest these Fan-made Campaigns using Equilibris:

You are very welcome. As I said in my original post in this thread, I thought that my opinion and impression would be interesting, as it comes from seeing H4 after H5. I am glad you enjoyed my commentary.

As for user-maps, I will consider your suggestions, but most likely, after I have played a bunch of single maps (from those that came with the game), so I get some "unguided" practice at maps, I will probably start looking for unreviewed maps - and review them.
Of course, I will need to play around with the map editor as well to give a decent review of anything.

[Angelspit]

Regarding WoW versus GS, you guys seem to overlook the very interesting improvements of the WoW map editor (brushes, copy and paste, advanced scripting). That expansion alone contributed to the creation of very interesting fan-made maps. Forget the campaigns, I'd take WoW over GS anytime.

[Humakt]

improvements of the WoW map editor (brushes, copy and paste, advanced scripting).

Advanced scripting? Have I missed something peculiar since I never noticed any real update to scripting possibilities of map editor? And copy/paste function I didn't use much, easier just to place the object to palette and then move it to, or if mass copied ctrl drag always was there if I recall correctly. Same goes for the brushes, I used them very little though I understand they're excellent tool for fast decoration but handmade is handmade. Don't get me wrong, I think it was excellent that they even bothered to update the editor, just didn't need the new features much.

[ByteBandit]

I know that once I figure out the complexity of the H4 map editor as opposed to H3, I will definitely want to make a few maps. Like my H3 maps that I made, I will be putting things in manually without brushes and all. I place every little thing in by hand. It's labor intensive, I know, but that's how I make maps. And it will be an original version only.
But for now, I am still just trying to figure out the mechanics of the game as I just recently got the original game myself.

[difool]

I took about a 4 month vacation from the series over the summer (burnout and all), so this is the first time I've read this thread in depth.

For a battlegamer like myself (via my wargaming background), and not a storygamer like QQD, the game in the end analysis just didn't quite merit repeated play. If I had sired this thread fully half of my analysis would have dealt with how the AI sucks at doing this, did this stupid thing and that idiotic thing, and ultimately is a complete pushover, a death sentence if you play the game as an open-ended strategic challenge and not to follow a storyline. [Remember all the gravestones in front of a tough monster? Would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.] QQD spent very little time going over that, which surprises me a bit because it's like ignoring the drooling 300 pound idiot in your home who leaves spittle (and worse) all over your carpet, but different perspectives and all that.

The H3 AI is pretty dim but at least I can count on it coming straight for me if it has an advantage, and suitably compensated by extra gold and creatures it can put up a decent fight. But from choosing skills to exploring its home area to building up its castle to finally taking the fight to you the H4 AI was absolutely 100% hopeless, and for me a game with no strategic challenge of any sort is a game I'm not playing.

But Oh Lord this game was absolutely dripping with great ideas. Often half-baked ideas, poorly implemented which blasted play balance to hell and back, but lots of wonderful creative things. QQD is right on when he says that the adventure map rocks, and indeed it did, and I immensely enjoyed building up a Master Thief, or unstoppable tank, or primo magic user, even if the AI had Gomer Pyle and Forrest Gump as their main heroes to my Merlins and Conans (i.e. no worthy villians to be found=Dullsville). Man it would sure have been wonderful if NWC had enough time and funds to properly give this game its due, but alas not.

Yeah there were a few things that bugged me (primarily the forced creature choice, which in my view completely ruined the cohesive feel of each faction, making them seem more like randomly hired mercenaries than longtime comrades in arms), but the potential is certainly there. In the end tho this is probably the most disappointing game I've bought in the last 10 years.

[BrennusWhiskey]

I think you all did not uncover real possibilities of this game which accessible in online game only......

[ThunderTitan]

Having recently played a little H4 after playing a lot of H3 i have to say, the worst thing about H4 (after the patches) is the claustrophobic looking battlefield... I had forgotten just how bad it looks compared to H3's.

[TheUndeadKing]

I remember that some of my first impressions were:

- I thought the whole new look of the Combat Map needed getting used to. It was a bit awkward to me. And I HATED the new combat grid & shadow.
- I didn't like the new town designs at all, but I did like the new town interface (thought it was better than H3's town interface).
- I wished the adventure map interface was a bit more detailed.
- I liked the terrain effects on towns and combat maps. It was a nice touch, IMO.
- I ABSOLUTELY LOVED simultaneous retaliation.
- I liked the new Luck system (it was more balanced than in H3).
- I liked the new ranged combat (even though it wasn't implemented perfectly).
- I thought Heroes in combat was AWESOME, even though my heroes were getting killed all the time.
- I ABSOLUTELY HATED some of the new creature designs. But then again, I also loved some of them.
- I didn't like the memory leaks.
- My computer wasn't that great at the time of release (it was a P3 system with a GeForce 2 MX), so I couldn't fully enjoy the XL & XXL maps. And with memory leaks it was an annoying & frustrating experience.

[GreatEmerald]

Oh yea, memory leaks... Brings back memories... I remember that I was very much impressed by the music back then (and I still am, the Academy theme is just awesome), but since that PC didn't have enough memory, it was only playable with music off. And the editor kept crashing due to low memory, too.

[TheUndeadKing]

The music really stood out for me, as well. I was (still am) particularly fond of the title theme and the water theme. Funny thing is, I even once had a special, separate hero to (only) collect the flotsam in the sea, just so I could listen to it again, and again, and again...

[ThunderTitan]

but since that PC didn't have enough memory, it was only playable with music off.

And the game still crashed after big battles anyway (at least for me).