Looking backward: First impressions on HoMM4

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Qurqirish Dragon
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Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 31 May 2007, 15:20

I didn't play much yesterday (I gave most of my game time to Twilight Princess), but I did finish map 1. I must say that I am a bit disappointed so far. The story is a bit bland, and the map didn't play nicely. cases in point:

1) only about half the map is used. Perhaps I would have gotten to the other half if I went through the blue border guard, but I tend not to open new paths until I secure the area behind it.

2) strong forces prevented me from holding one particular town, so I abandoned it, and decided to explore further. I stumbled on the map-ending trigger without even realizing I was nearing it. I expected that when I got to the designated town, I would be told to look in the area behind the aforementioned border guard. When the event appeared as I neared my destination, I was quite surprised, and maybe even a little annoyed that I was done. Perhaps I should reload an autosave and explore the border. At least I got to maximum level before finishing.

3) Too many dwellings were disabled in the nature town. From the intro to map 2, I realize why tigers were not available, but something to indicate this would have been nice - even a passing comment in one of the map 1 events such as "we are a remote town, and only a few of nature's creatures can find us here" Granted, I would probably have taken the elves anyway, but I would have liked the choice!

After the very nicely done order capaign, this was a poor showing. Hopefully it will improve in the next scenario.

Not to be totally negative, I am learning good use for the nature spells. The fact that I was able to take out 36 behemoths with fairly weak forces (90 orcs, 100 elves, and a few unicorns) testifies to the use of quicksand and weak summoning spells to attract the enemy. (and liberal use of a wand of fireballs :-D )

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 31 May 2007, 18:48

Well, let me repeat this:
For me Nature is clearly the weakest campaign (not the weakest town, by no means).
Nature is awfully strong on any map. All your 3 mage guilds may contain a level 2 stack-disabling spell; Water Elementals ARE slow, true, but that's it in terms of setbacks; the Summoning spells are extremely powerful because you just don't need an army (which you will see later).
That means that you need a very hard campaign for Nature to make things interesting, and that campaign is not nearly hard enough. Moreover this campaign will clearly show the bad sides of the AI.
On the bright side you'll have Death and Chaos after that which should be the best campaign storywise and gameplaywise, respectively.

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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 31 May 2007, 19:36

The Death campaign was excellant.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 01 Jun 2007, 02:37

Qurqirish Dragon wrote: After the very nicely done order capaign, this was a poor showing. Hopefully it will improve in the next scenario.
It won't. If nothing else, the ridiculous writing will drive you away. :vomit:
Not to be totally negative, I am learning good use for the nature spells. The fact that I was able to take out 36 behemoths with fairly weak forces (90 orcs, 100 elves, and a few unicorns) testifies to the use of quicksand and weak summoning spells to attract the enemy. (and liberal use of a wand of fireballs :-D )
I love Nature Magic -- but then, I'm prejudiced. Mass Luck, Mass Snake Strike, and Mass Speed -- who needs Tactics? :)

Overall, the Nature Campaign is unfortunately the weakest of the original H4 Campaigns in terms of writing, story, and map design.

On the bright side, the Death and Chaos campaigns are coming up as a reward for suffering through this misbegotten mishmash.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 01 Jun 2007, 03:33

I never did manage to finish the Chaos campaign. Got fed up with it.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Jun 2007, 08:42

Bandobras Took wrote: It won't. If nothing else, the ridiculous writing will drive you away. :vomit:
Your parents never read you fairy tales when you were young, did they.
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Unread postby gravyluvr » 01 Jun 2007, 13:51

QD? Are you on Nature Now?
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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 01 Jun 2007, 21:28

ThunderTitan wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote: It won't. If nothing else, the ridiculous writing will drive you away. :vomit:
Your parents never read you fairy tales when you were young, did they.
No; I read them for myself.

As a parallel example, just because the beginning of Pirates 3 incorporated "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" doesn't mean that the beginning of Pirates 3 was well-paced with interesting dialogue, characters, or conversation.

Being shipwrecked and getting to spend weeks with a beautiful woman is an adolescent fantasy and is the foundation of the Nature Campaign in Heroes 4. Neither urinating tigers nor jealous people with mind-altering enchantments help it out any.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Unread postby Metathron » 01 Jun 2007, 21:35

The writing of the Nature campaign may be rather corny, but I still enjoyed it a lot. A love story really spiced up things, especially since there was no trace of love in the other campaigns. The look and feel of each scenario was very well done in my opinion, so it's all really subjective.
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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Jun 2007, 22:43

Bandobras Took wrote: Being shipwrecked and getting to spend weeks with a beautiful woman is an adolescent fantasy and is the foundation of the Nature Campaign in Heroes 4. Neither urinating tigers nor jealous people with mind-altering enchantments help it out any.
So you object to it's sentimentality and archaic initiation rites? But that's what made it cute.

No; I read them for myself.
No wonder you don't like it. Poor you. :tongue:
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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 02 Jun 2007, 17:43

ThunderTitan wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote: Being shipwrecked and getting to spend weeks with a beautiful woman is an adolescent fantasy and is the foundation of the Nature Campaign in Heroes 4. Neither urinating tigers nor jealous people with mind-altering enchantments help it out any.
So you object to it's sentimentality and archaic initiation rites? But that's what made it cute.
If there were a real sentiment, I wouldn't object to its sentimentality.

That's what made it bad.

It also jars thematically with the writing of the other campaigns -- the Haven worked with idea of nobility, the Barbarians with community through personal sacrifice, and the Asylum with large-scale criminal activity and the self-destruction inherent therein. So the might-based campaigns dealth with an appropriate theme for the class.

So with the other two magic-based campaigns the Academy concerned with the proper means of imposing Order, the Necropolis with the place of Death in the world.

I've always felt that the Nature campaign had very little to do with the overall theme of the faction, and that it was just so much wasted filler.
Metathron wrote: A love story really spiced up things, especially since there was no trace of love in the other campaigns. The look and feel of each scenario was very well done in my opinion, so it's all really subjective.
A well-done love story would certainly have spiced things up. But for me, a well-done love story concerns the process by which love is formed, and in that respect all contenders for Shaera's hand are a little lacking. Elwin could only do it by being alone with her for several weeks, and others have to resort to compulsion.

I would have much preferred a "city-born girl meets wilderness druid who teaches her the meaning of Nature" story, which would allow for many of the same conflicts while also permitting a deeper exploration of the Nature faction's philosophy. That would have put it around the level of the other campaigns in the game instead of seriously subpar.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Re: Nature 1: a little disappointing

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 02 Jun 2007, 19:10

Bandobras Took wrote: I've always felt that the Nature campaign had very little to do with the overall theme of the faction, and that it was just so much wasted filler.
Tree-hugging pixies™ getting a love story?! I see how that has nothing to do with natures theme. Would it have been better if one of the was a tree?
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 02 Jun 2007, 21:21

Not surprisingly I agree completely and in every detail with Bandobras Took. I think, his last post is to the point.
There is another point, and that is Elwin's, well, juvenile and "pure" style of narration and presentation, which is incongrous with the power he learns to wield.

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Unread postby gravyluvr » 03 Jun 2007, 01:18

It's a love story from the woman's side. Not from his side.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Jun 2007, 09:26

juvenile and "pure" style of narration and presentation, which is incongruous with the power he learns to wield.
No immature people ever have power... what a relief.

Now can anyone remember what PA comic was the one with the young EXTREME wizard?
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 03 Jun 2007, 10:57

He doesn't HAVE power - he DEVELOPS it.

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Unread postby Metathron » 03 Jun 2007, 11:41

And he doesn't grow at all along the way? I beg to differ. Like I said, this one will have to be put into the agree-to-disagree basket.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Jun 2007, 12:03

Jolly Joker wrote:He doesn't HAVE power - he DEVELOPS it.
So power doesn't only corrupt, it ages you. Figures...
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Some things become second nature. (and third nature...)

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 03 Jun 2007, 14:51

Since my last post, I have gone through two more nature missions. The "save the tigers" mission was interesting, and I focussed mainly on getting a strong army, as Elwin was still not quite strong enough to handle neutrals on his own, and the castles had huge forces. Fortunately, portals of summoning were constructable in this map, so I was able to play with the huge number of troops available. Unfortunately, I found most of the extra creatures useless, so I just let the summoning power build up and purchased only the stronger ones. Indeed, I only hired water elementals, wasp-worts, and mantises from the portal. I found that leprechauns are only useful for the fortune spell, but since they can only cast it once, I much prefer to have elwin cast fortune directly, and use the creature stack for a better force. Even more so once I learned mass furtune.
I continued with the one-hero, six-stacks army, to get myself up to maximum level (which occurred only one or two battles before the end of the map, and I cleared out everything) This caused a little back-tracking, but fairly early, I have enough creatures stored in the towns that I could defend any of them without returning.
Once again, the final battle was anticlimactic, as I fought the necromancer outside his town - making it very easy for my ranged troops to mop the floor with him. The battle didn't even last 2 full rounds!

Map 3 was the artifact quest, and had very little to do. Indeed, I cleared off everything and only gained 3 of the possible 6 levels during the map (and one of THOSE was from a treek of knowledge!) Fortunately, I did get expert life magic from one of those levels, so I picked up mass healing and regeneration. I haven't used them yet, but they are there. This map also began the solo-hero adventure. With my expert summoning skill, and summon spells calling 13 elementals at a shot, I didn't need to hire any troops until near the end of the map (I don't think I even needed them then, but with hundreds of thousands of gold, might as well by the 100 waspworts or the 20 mantices that had been gathering in the 6 towns, right?)

Thus, I found the main strength of the preserve. I though the summoning portal was it, but the summoning spells in nature magic make even those creatures superfluous. Perhaps a might-nature hero would have made the opposite true, as with a small magic supply, the stronger creatures would be more important.

I will say that from the magic side, all three types I have played so far play very similarly. They each have one or two spells and an abilitiy that dominate. (for life, it was resurrection skill and guardian angel/mass heal; for order it is charm an the illusion spells; for nature it is summoning and summoning spells- particularly the summons for my preferred creatures above)

Hopefull in the mext map I will finally be able to get level 4 troops. Although the level 3s are nice, only the level 2 elves actually became a normal part of my force. Mostly summonned and creature-portalled troops were more useful. But this looks more like a flaw with the campaign. The creature portal lets you get level 3 and 4 troops, while the towns have only allowed (generally) one level-3 troop, and no 4s.

I think I am almost ready to give my final verdict on H4, but I will refrain until I have finished all the campaigns. However, I may be making fewer reports here. Likely one after map 1 of each of the remaining campaigns, and one at the end of each.

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Death becomes him...

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 04 Jun 2007, 16:37

I finished the nature campaign, and although I didn't care too much for the storyline, it wasn't too bad. Next up is the death campaign, in which I have already finished the first and am most of the way through the second.

Since I start with both death and nature magic, I thought it would make sense to develop both. My first level of demonology got me the summon imp spell. I eagerly awaited getting my nature built up, but now, 17 levels later, I still haven't been offered a nature skill! I am only two levels away from maxing out all skills in the death tree, so hopefully in the next map I will be able to improve it!

Otherwise, with the majority of creatures that I encounter being other undead, the necromancy skill so far hasn't done too much for me (although I am now raising ghosts, so at least the raised troops have good movement.) This tells me that I am not getting a good view of the necromancer class, as I will have the necromancy skill completely maxed out before I can really use it (assuming I will be able to in SOME map).

Death spells are interesting to work with, but again with so few non-death forces out there, I don't get to use too many of them. Indeed, I use summon sprite / imp more than anything else!

I have had some fun winning ridiculously unbalanced battles. For example, I had one vampire defeat 60 zombies (in two stacks) by itself, while all my other forces (which was only about 40 skeletons, 10 ghosts, 2 zombies and my hero)cowered in a corner. It reminds me of some stories I had heard in the past.

As for the troops, I don't know if I like cerberi or ghosts better, since I really don't use either as more than a stepping stone to the level 3s. I haven't played much with venom spawn yet, but so far they seem pretty good, and as the only ranged attack unit in the town, I will likely use them more. Vampires, although very useful in large quantities, seem to be harder to hold onto than I expected. This is probably also due to all the undead battles I have had. I haven't had access to a devil yet, so I cannot compare level 4s. Bone dragons do seem to be a bit stronger as level 4s than in previous heroes games, however.


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