Looking backward: First impressions on HoMM4

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Lysander's 3rd: aesthetics and caravans

Unread postby Bandobras Took » 03 May 2007, 18:08

ThunderTitan wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote: @ BT: I am playing the campaigns, which don't have selectable difficulty, so I am playing on whatever the default is :D
They do have selectable dif, it's just that only at the campaigns start (which annoyed the heck out of me in the Chaos campaign, as i couldn't finish the first map on anything else but Easy, and then the rest where too easy).
I actually had an easier time on Impossible difficulty with the Chaos campaign. But we've not gotten there yet, so I'll refrain from further comment. :)
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Re: Lysander's 3rd: aesthetics and caravans

Unread postby Metathron » 03 May 2007, 18:22

Bandobras Took wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote: @ BT: I am playing the campaigns, which don't have selectable difficulty, so I am playing on whatever the default is :D
They do have selectable dif, it's just that only at the campaigns start (which annoyed the heck out of me in the Chaos campaign, as i couldn't finish the first map on anything else but Easy, and then the rest where too easy).
I actually had an easier time on Impossible difficulty with the Chaos campaign. But we've not gotten there yet, so I'll refrain from further comment. :)
I'll refrain from commenting here, so I'll reply in the other thread for more general queries on HoMM IV campaigns. :)
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Re: Lysander's 3rd: aesthetics and caravans

Unread postby wimfrits » 03 May 2007, 18:39

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:The bad: You cannot hire creatures in a town from the caravan screen. You can hire them from dwellings on the adventure map you captured, but not the towns. This makes it very inconvenient when you are trying to gather the production of several towns together. This is something H5 had right.
I disagree. In H4, you can buy creatures in town and caravan them from the town's garrison. This means you can also bring joining creatures to town and caravan them further. In effect, this means you can caravan everything.
In H5 you cannot caravan creatures that have been 'active', which I consider a limitation.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Unread postby Akul » 03 May 2007, 19:01

Unfortunately QD, this is another RPG map. But fortunately this is also the last one in all campaigns (not counting the half-RPG map in 3rd campaign).
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Unread postby Pol » 03 May 2007, 19:36

"I disagree."
Yup. You just need to first bought them in the town, then they will appear and you may caravan them wheresoever you want.

Here is only one limitation, the town from which you wish to send a caravan must be having caravan building built.
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Unread postby Metathron » 03 May 2007, 20:47

Pol wrote:Here is only one limitation, the town from which you wish to send a caravan must be having caravan building built.
And the path between the two towns must be clear of enemies.
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Unread postby craziii » 04 May 2007, 02:39

I wish H5 allows us to pick and choose which skill we want for our heroes. having the ultimate skill for every faction and only getting it by luck during 30+ of lvl up makes it very very frustrating.

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Wow the odds..

Unread postby nevermindspy » 04 May 2007, 04:35

I was also playing homm4 few days ago for almost the first time ,(few times years years ago that i don't remmeber much from) and well yes there is plenty to like in it , What i was wondering if you might be interested in playing online? as one homm vet /yet homm4 noob to another .. ??

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Re: Wow the odds..

Unread postby Metathron » 04 May 2007, 10:22

nevermindspy wrote:I was also playing homm4 few days ago for almost the first time ,(few times years years ago that i don't remmeber much from) and well yes there is plenty to like in it , What i was wondering if you might be interested in playing online? as one homm vet /yet homm4 noob to another .. ??
Sure, I'd love to play HoMM IV with others. We already have a Hamachi group for HoMM II, and I'll create one for IV as well. In fact, I'll put instructions in my sig!
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Re: Lysander's 3rd: aesthetics and caravans

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 04 May 2007, 14:37

wimfrits wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:The bad: You cannot hire creatures in a town from the caravan screen. You can hire them from dwellings on the adventure map you captured, but not the towns. This makes it very inconvenient when you are trying to gather the production of several towns together. This is something H5 had right.
I disagree. In H4, you can buy creatures in town and caravan them from the town's garrison. This means you can also bring joining creatures to town and caravan them further. In effect, this means you can caravan everything.
In H5 you cannot caravan creatures that have been 'active', which I consider a limitation.
You misread me. I said being unable to hire creatures in a town from the caravan screen was inconvenient. H5 lets you do this. In map 3, when I had about 10 towns, trying to gather troops via caravan (which I did whenever my cash got high) was very time consuming. If I could have bought the troops from the caravan screen, it would have been much easier. The only thing that I prefer in the H5 form of the caravan from a playing standpoint (as opposed to the mechanics in hiring) is the ability for a hero to intercept it (which, as I mentioned is both a plus and a minus!)

@sauron:
Actually, I find the RPG maps enjoyable. But then, I have always enjoyed them better than battle maps.

@Pol:
Since the caravan needs a building, needing it in the town you are sending from makes sense.

@craziii:
this thread is not for H5 discussion, please stay on topic.

@nevermindspy:
Sorry, I have very little time to play on-line for anything. That's why I am so concerned with the single-player experience in general.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 04 May 2007, 15:04

You also can't hire creature from the Kingdom Overview, which is another let down...
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Re: Lysander's 3rd: aesthetics and caravans

Unread postby wimfrits » 05 May 2007, 07:57

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:You misread me. I said being unable to hire creatures in a town from the caravan screen was inconvenient. H5 lets you do this.
Ah. I see. Nice example of how the order of games played influences one's viewpoint.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Unread postby Chorus » 05 May 2007, 10:04

QD,

I was in somewhat of a similar situation as you: played H1-3, skipped 4. I did try the H5 demo, but was largely disappointed. In June of 2006, I obtained H4 Complete and I've been enjoying it since. I particularly like the storylines and heroes buildup. The Haven campaign is the best opportunity to work on the latter. Specifically, I like seeing how skill combinations, advanced classes, and tactics mesh. What are your thoughts on this?

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Lysander's end: first campaign comments

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 05 May 2007, 12:55

I finished the campaign last night, so between a good night's rest, and going to the EPGS meeting today for some good boardgaming fun, I thought I'd post my thoughts.

The storyline was very enjoyable. Top quality. This was the kind of story I only thought the fans could make. (Wait- I really meant that as a compliment to the 3D0/NWC guys, not a slam against the fan base :hoo: )

The last map very much emphasized how much the heroes dominate this game at higher levels. Although I had several towns from early on, I kept all six of my starting heroes in one force (along with the summonned stack from Lysander). Once I built a few angel dwellings, I used caravans to send them forward. It can't hurt to have a creature capable of ressurrecting troops in-battle. They weren't necessary, but once I had a decent stack of them, they were able to take out an occassional stack before my three grandmaster archers walloped them.
Charming the occassional stack worked nicely, as the charmed forces could go and gather loose resources for me, while the heroes concentrated on flagging objects and advancing through the map.

Due to the great hero power, I am thinking that I may want to experiment with more diverse skills, rather than building up a few trees in my next campaign (most of my heroes had 2 fully-built trees at end, and a few skills in the other 3. Getting basic magic in some school should be useful for any hero)

It is nice to see that summonned troops (from the skill) build up, even if you do not have an army slot for them. When I split Lysander off from the rest to end the map, a huge pile of sprites magically formed - obviously the 5 or 6 week's worth that hadn't any room until then)

Speaking of troops, minotaurs are very annoying with that blocking skill. One stack blocked an entire round's attacks (2 melee and 7 ranged). I actually needed to use a healing spell in that battle. The fact needing to heal was a once-in-the-map occurrance further emphasizes the hero strength.

One thing I missed, but didn't conciously register it until near the end was the lack of "map bonuses" in the campaign. Whether it was just this campaign, or that the option isn't there remains to be seen (although I would guess a pmap designer could script a choice on day 1, if you really wanted it.)

@Chorus: I don't find that the advanced classes are that special. The abilities are nice, but the skill selection offerred to heroes is so rigid that it is very hard to get the one you want. For example, I tried to get an archmage, but it was only when I found a site on the last map offering order magic that I was finally able to get someone to have 3 schools of magic. By then the other skills were so far advanced through levelling that it would have taken a dozen more levels to even have a chance at the title. Perhaps if I decided to do this from the first map, when characters were low in level, I might have been able to succeed. I'll have to think about this in the next one.

So far, my impression is that this game really emphasizes the HEROES part of HoMM, but it seems to possibly be to the detriment of the rest of the map.

Anyway, I am now on to a new campaign.

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Unread postby Paladin » 05 May 2007, 15:58

Which campaign are you planning to play next?

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Unread postby Metathron » 05 May 2007, 18:51

I think he plans to play them in the order they're shown in, so that would make his next campaign the Might one - Glory of Days Past.
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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 06 May 2007, 14:26

Paladin wrote:Which campaign are you planning to play next?
Whatever the 2nd one in the top row is ;|

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 May 2007, 20:39

Damn Order Hero... Chaos FTW.

Brace yourself for the mighty Combat Hero.
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Unread postby danijel1990 » 07 May 2007, 05:26

My first impressions of HoMM 4 was :( . It had lots of bugs and it was so different. But later, even now I can play them as all other HoMM games B-)

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Might campaign 1: on immortality and berserkers.

Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 07 May 2007, 16:03

Onward to campaign number 2. Now that I know that the campaign difficulty needs to be set at map 1, I decided to play this one at "advanced", since the description seems to indicate this is the level at which the AI is neither crippled, nor given bonuses. I noticed the tougher battles right away, but this is probably more due to the increased size of neutrals.

The first thing I decided is that I really don't like berserkers. I have to take them, because they are level 1 and plentiful, but they are continually messing up my strategy- both with attracting enemy walkers into my ranged toops' line of sight (so I cannot target what I want), and getting themselves set so I cannot use cyclops' attacks efficiently without killing them all off in the process.
Further, there are many battles I could have one with no losses, except that they charged up to the enemy!
Centaurs, on the other hand, are very nice, even with their short-range problems. (which are compunded by the berserkers not allowing the enemy to come into medium-range for them).
Due to town limitations, I didn't get too much chance to compare level 3 forces (and none for the level 4s), but the little I did have indicates that this my be a tough choice, depending on the situation. So far in map 2, I haven't had a choice - ogre magi were deactivated in any town I got to before the choice was made for me. cyclops do work nicely, however.
Similarly, I have not had enough experience with level 4s yet in map 2 to determine the general relation, but considering the thunderbirds have a faster growth rate, I expect this to be another tough one.

Back to map 1. several battles came down to immortality potions. Even with plenty of other creatures available, a bad morale round in battle ended my game early. Several battles (mainly seiges) began with the enemy getting morale rounds with their 400+ centaurs and 20+ cyclops, which quickly killed Wearjik twice before I got an action. Without any spellcasters to raise him in battle, that meant game over, even if my forces could win. In an individual scenario, I could have won the battle, and then raised the hero in the town. Not so in campaign. With the potions, I could survive if only one of them went before me, but not 2. The only way to guarantee my hero didn't get clobbered twice would have been to use dense formations, and then the centaurs wouldn't be able to hit him. Of course,then the cyclops pound 5 or 6 of my stacks, and my numerical advantage is lost.

Now, in map 2, I have maked out my level, so I may relegate Wearjik to a defensive role, so that getting a hero killed in battle will not lose the map. I'm starting a nature hero out, so maybe I'll get some magical aid as well. I'll find out soon enough, I guess. If I am lucky, this hero will also get life magic, and the nature town's guild will get guardian angel or divine intervention. That also assumes I'll get the skills needed to cast them. A lot of ifs, but that's where it stands.


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