H3: Are certain heroes too good?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Nucleon
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Unread postby Nucleon » 31 Jan 2006, 17:02

wimfrits wrote: Still, you won't be testing the validity of the general consensus on banned heroes. Only that of you and Banedon. That is, if Banedon thinks diplomacy is not overpowered.
Aah, Nucleon notice that you braced "general" in italic, sagacious one. Althought Nucleon might not agree 100% with many consensi, He sure follows the main currents of thought in general, regarding the game.

It happen that Nucleon as 1) mainly a mapmaker, 2) a RPG HOMM3 player then finally 3) a multiplayer does not necessarly bans Logisticians. He tends to favor varied terrain with no roads and water, giving as much weight to Pathfinding and Navigation for full movement to be effective. "Diplomacy" is another problem, permissible if countered by a mapmaker who sets a demeanor to his neutrals.

Then there are other skills, artefacts and even heroes He bans (in non-WoG) because they are too close to being useless, polluting the game.

And whatever the outcome of the game, Banedon already won back most of the respect Nucleon already gave him, simply by graciously accepting the duel.

:proud:

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Gaidal Cain
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 31 Jan 2006, 17:22

Nucleon wrote: (Concerning the bans; It does not look as if it is possible to effectively ban something out of a RoE map; Re-formatting to AB could also bring the problem of having Storm Elementals as neutral second lvl troops, which can be potentially disruptive. Suggestions?)
Depends on what you want to ban, and how much space there is. Artifacts can be banned by placing them and a quest hut asking for them. Heroes can be "banned" by placing an extra AI colour somewhere inacessible and give him the unwanted heroes, unable to move (this should only be done if there is an limited amount of AI players, since they won't buy more than a certain total together).
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

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Unread postby Nucleon » 31 Jan 2006, 17:40

Gaidal Cain wrote: Depends on what you want to ban, and how much space there is. Artifacts can be banned by placing them and a quest hut asking for them. Heroes can be "banned" by placing an extra AI colour somewhere inacessible and give him the unwanted heroes, unable to move (this should only be done if there is an limited amount of AI players, since they won't buy more than a certain total together).
Acceptable. There is much vacant subterranean void in All for One.

Or, since we are going to edit the map anyway, we can make an AB version of it (no SoD combination artefacts), and manually change the what, 7 random lvl2 dots by native ones, to make sure they don't end up Storms. This way, it would be easier to ban stuff, especially items -and extension heroes plus Mullich.

And if the week of the Storm Elemental ever comes, well, I guess we'll deal with it.

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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 31 Jan 2006, 18:08

Actually, if you wish to avoid such bad luck, level 3 stacks are just as important, as some table is incorrect, meaning that Magma Elementals are considered level 3... (Energy are level 5 and Ice level 4).
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

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Unread postby csarmi » 31 Jan 2006, 21:36

I think it's completely useless to play heroes 3 multi with diplomacy enabled.
It unbalances the game too much and make it all about luck.
IF both players have that. If only one of them, it's probably gg right away.
The main problem with it is that it's too exponential, once you get joiners, your army grows too fast.

Necro and conflux should be out too, since those towns are unbeatable.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 31 Jan 2006, 23:37

I thought you said logistics was not overpowered, thats why you don't ban them. Precisely why he is starting with a hero that specializes logistics.

You are not using a logistics specialization hero,are you?

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Unread postby Nucleon » 01 Feb 2006, 00:03

SmokingBarrel wrote:You are not using a logistics specialization hero,are you?
No, not as a starting one. That would be pointless.

However, He makes no secret that, if Nucleon has the chance, he might hire one later in the game. If he can't, He will get, or provide a hero with Logistics to fill a similar role.

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Unread postby Banedon » 01 Feb 2006, 01:17

1-Ban artefacts; Shackles of War, Angel Wings, Boots of Levitation (also ban "Water Walk"), Spellbinder's Hat as well as the four Tomes of Magic.
OK.
2-Ban all extension heroes, including Sir Mullich (maybe irrelevant, since we play RoE).
That simple thing gives me some headaches. I do play RoE, but I do not use WoG.
3-Nucleon choses Red, and a Diplomacy hero from either Rampart, Tower or Castle (Banedon didn't have anything against using them considering that the point was brought up with him in this thread). However, if Banadon choses Rampart, Nucleon shall not take chose that town.
To this, I will note that Diplomacy unbalances multiplayer Heroes 3. Diplomacy is an unfair skill, so if you are going to use one, I will have to ask for some restrictions.

Having scoured the map, I agree Red has a distinct advantage in that map. He has easy access to the Rampart town below while Blue will have trouble taking over the Fortress town to the east (it is surrounded by Swamp, after all. Blue can take the town, but to fully utilize Fortress's resources will take time). I too want to play Red - wonder if Nucleon is willing.
This will be, essentially, a game between the two most often banned types of heroes.
I was under the impression that this game will be between Logistics, a generally banned specialization, and a regular hero. If it is to be between Logistics and Diplomacy, I have no idea why we are duelling - the entire point of the game is to determine if Logistics is overpowered, not Diplomacy (which everyone agrees to be).
This was not send to Banedon yet, but Nucleon offers to replace the D-Door spell given at a Seer's Hut by "Magic Mirror", "Sacrifice" or "Implosion". As this Seer's Hut is closest to Red, Nucleon shall let Banedon decide, thought.
I don't really care, but I suggest removing the spell reward completely.
EDIT; "Expert" seems to Nucleon like a correct difficulty setting, also.
OK, Expert it is.
Are Logistic heroes also "usually" banned? If that's the case, Nucleon don't see why he shouldn't take a Diplomat. His point (to the effect that He wouldn't ban Logistic specialists, as some heroes seem better as starting ones) still holds water.
Logistics heroes are generally banned. So too are Diplomats. I cannot see what you hope to prove here: that Diplomacy is even more overpowered than Logistics? This battle was supposed to prove (or disprove) the theory that Logistics is overpowered - not Diplomacy.
More than any other thing, Nucleon will test Banedon's theory that advances that Nucleon is a noob. These were fighting words, as Nucleon will not accept being thus slurred. It shall be washed in the virtual blood of our respective troops. mad
As I will test it. Through what you have posted in this topic, I have every reason to believe you are inexperienced in multiplayer Heroes 3. I do admire you wishing to test it in battle though.
From the earliest posts we've done on this thread, Banedon claimed that Logisticians should be banned, because they assure almost-certain victory. They are not on Nucleon's ban list, however, and as better starting heroes he presented Diplomats, ressource-bringers and 1st lvl creature specialists. Go check and see, it is there somewhere.
I therefore ask Nucleon not to pick a Diplomat, but a resource-bringing hero or a level 1 creature specialist. If Nucleon agrees, then this battle will have some meaning.
Never did Banedon agreed that Diplomats should be banned, even venturing to say that so many "diplomized" creatures would bring a lower morale to one's army. If he ever said that Diplomats were also a problem, Nucleon would have agree, but that was not the case.
I have never said Diplomacy should be banned because I was never called into it. I say it now. Diplomacy should be banned. It makes Heroes 3 too imbalanced and turbulent.

Now that we have an understanding on Diplomacy, does Nucleon still wish to duel - Logistics vs. regular heroes?
That was also Nucleon's opinion, and He had a real interesting, civil discussion with Banedon up until he claimed Nucleon was a noob, just after csarmi specified what he intended by this very insult he brought. And it wasn't nice.
I thought I have been very civil with that, but evidently it still offended you. I'm sorry.
Necro and conflux should be out too, since those towns are unbeatable.
Necropolis out? Why? But that is way off topic, so I shall start a new one on it.

*********

In the end the question behind this battle is this: Are Logistics specialists overpowered? We have already established Dimension Door, Fly, Water Walk and Town Portal to be overpowered. We have also established that Conflux shoudl be banned (4x growth of Phoenixes is definitely imbalanced). We agree that Diplomacy is overpowered, and so should not be practised.

In other words, everything that is normally banned should be banned - except Logistics specialists.

Is Nucleon still willing to duel?

PS: Nucleon called to mind one thing - our time zone difference. Nucleon and I live on opposite sides of the world, so to time this game will be difficult. Therefore, I ask if anyone else will be willing to take over me for this game - csarmi again springs to mind, since he does not need to sleep at night, but with him engaged in other matters I wonder if anyone else can do it. If not possible though, I suppose we can work out a compromise.

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Unread postby csarmi » 01 Feb 2006, 01:46

Necropolis is overpowered because of necromancy. Conflux is overpowered for several things (magic university, sprites, phoenixes (too many, too easy to build), low level shooters).

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Unread postby Banedon » 01 Feb 2006, 01:48

Wrong topic :D

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Nucleon
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Unread postby Nucleon » 01 Feb 2006, 03:17

Banedon, Nucleon just sent you something via PM.

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Unread postby csarmi » 01 Feb 2006, 10:40

Banedon wrote:Wrong topic :D
Why, this topic has a topic? I don't think so.

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Unread postby Derek » 01 Feb 2006, 16:15

csarmi wrote:
Banedon wrote:Wrong topic :D
Why, this topic has a topic? I don't think so.
I was wondering that same thing myself...

However, I wait with anticipation to see who comes out on top.
Hell has frozen over...

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 02 Feb 2006, 01:27

Hey man Derek, Banedon just told me that they can't fight since, well, Nucleon lives in Canada and me and me pals live in Malaysia.

Sad. I would like to see the outcome of the battle. I tried opposing Banedon in the map they agreed on already, with him using logistics speacialist. Busted no fight. :(

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Unread postby Banedon » 02 Feb 2006, 03:26

Why, this topic has a topic? I don't think so.
I just posted one. You should be able to see it.
Sad. I would like to see the outcome of the battle. I tried opposing Banedon in the map they agreed on already, with him using logistics speacialist. Busted no fight. sad
I wouldn't say that SmokingBarrel. You didn't lose because of Logistics (though that played a factor), but rather because I had Rampart. Rampart has the early game advantage, and it was through that that I built up an advantage.

Very kind of you to play me though.
However, I wait with anticipation to see who comes out on top.
As of now this battle is cancelled. It's not that we're not willing to play, but rather because of the time zone difference - we live literally on opposite sides of the world.

I'll send a PM to csarmi, hopefully I can persuade him to duel Nucleon...


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