Heroes of Might and Magic II Mod

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Apr 10 2007, 5:39

The changes are irrelevant and even silly. The 3 fast races will even more dominate the smaller maps while there will still be the decisive imbalance of hiring other town's heroes?
Why making a mod that doesn't really mod what needs to be modded?

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Postby grobblewobble » Apr 10 2007, 7:29

Lord Belphegor wrote:I think it's the fourth time i've posted about buildings and spells and nobody made any proposals on that matter.

Calm down, please. I explained what change in the costs of buildings I think is the most needed. You don't agree on it, so never mind.
With regard to spells, I would say let's lower the cost of fire spells and holy/unholy spells a bit. I also think (as I already told) blind, haste and slow are too cheap because they're great spells. They could be more expensive. So for example, this is a mod I'd like to see:

blind: 8 SP
haste: 5 SP
slow: 5 SP
fireball: 6 SP
large fireball: 8 SP

I can provide anyone interested (and I wrote this two times before but no one messaged me!) the modified exe.

Ok, you can send me the modified exe. I also think it would be wise to play the modded version MP, because people have different playing styles, which leads to different perceptions of balance.

- Another idea is making the special buildings tougher (they suck except Library and Dungeon that totally rule and it's not fair):

Agreed, good idea.

So as i see it now, magic heroes are the ones who build faster anyway.

Sorry, but I can't follow you here. Barbarians want to spare the crystal and ore, but every other faction wants to spare some kinds of recources too.

SPELLS:
- Hypnotyze, level 4, cost 12, permanent until attack, attacked or dispelled
- Dim Door, cost 40

Good modifications imo.

The changes are irrelevant and even silly. The 3 fast races will even more dominate the smaller maps while there will still be the decisive imbalance of hiring other town's heroes?

Have to say JJ has a good point. The mod has mostly been about long-term advantages of town types, while on smaller maps the faster towns have their own unfair advantages. There's also the issue of balance between heroes. You say magic heroes are as good as might heroes. There has been an extensive discussion on this matter:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1056&highlight=magic+heroes

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Apr 10 2007, 7:38

Let's not forget, that for the bigger maps you have to balance everything against the NECRO as well.

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Postby Campaigner » Apr 10 2007, 16:59

Belphegor: I was waiting for a thread to be dedicated to the changes in the mod.

But there's the thing if you're willing to change some things that you do not agree with. I f.e. want this:

  • Cheaper mageguilds
  • A units speed decides how for it can move (includes flyers)
  • Ranged damage works like in Heroes V (half damage across the screen)
  • Attack & Defense percentages reduced to 5% and 2%
  • Much higher manacost for all spells and perhaps half duration for spellpower spent, rounding down (Spellpower 4 and 5 makes a spell last 2 turns. Knight & Barbarians shouldn't be able to cast so much)
  • Mana regeneration inreased (1 manapoint/knowledge) and Mysticism boosted


If much of this isn't changed then I see no reason play Heroes II more.

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Apr 10 2007, 17:28

Attack & Defense percentages reduced to 5% and 2%

No, it's 2.5% for defense, not 2%.

Heroes 3 uses 2.5 %, the documentation is wrong.

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Postby Darmani » Apr 10 2007, 19:39

Campaigner wrote:
  • A units speed decides how for it can move (includes flyers)
  • Ranged damage works like in Heroes V (half damage across the screen)
  • Attack & Defense percentages reduced to 5% and 2%
  • Mana regeneration inreased (1 manapoint/knowledge) and Mysticism boosted


If the quoted suggestions are done, Heroes II wouldn't be Heroes II anymore. It would be Heroes 2.5. Now, I realize that many people would see that as a step up, but I know for a fact that I am not alone in thinking the opposite.

- Titan remains at 300 HP, growth 2, cost 4500 gold + 2G
- Dragons, remain the same, but growth 2


3 Dragons/Titans a week is already enough. There's no need to increase the growth further (unless you increase other Tier 6 growths and remove the well).

- Phoenix 120 HP


I personally don't think that's necessary. Phoenixes are already incredibly capable. Near-guaranteed first strike gives a great advantage. They are also very capable in combat. As an added plus, while they can still be ressurected and blessed, they are immune to many spells (not sure what all), including Elemental Storm.

Dim Door, cost 40


I think it should still be possible to cast DD several times in a row and still be ready to fight. 40 SP is a little overboard; 25-30 are better, IMO.

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Postby Kristo » Apr 11 2007, 14:04

Lord Belphegor wrote:So until I feel that anyone is interested in the amount of work i've done, please allow me not to make my results public, as I would feel quite ripped off at the moment.

How would you feel ripped off by posting the offsets for changing various things within the game? It's not like you wouldn't get credit for it if something like WOG was created for Heroes 2. The whole point of this discussion is to enable experimentation. The more people who know how to modify the game, the better.

All we currently have right now is a vague sense that the game is unfair. If everyone can freely change things, then everyone can try out their own proposals rather than relying on one person, i.e., you, to make the changes for them. That way we can all stop speculating and start getting real results. An "official" rebalancing mod is a long way off.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Apr 11 2007, 14:30

I maintain my statement:

As long as there is no way to make sure that each faction will play only with their own heroes (or at least offset play with alien heroes with serious disadvantages) everything else in balancing doesn't make much sense, since it will be completely impossible to balance, for example, the Sorceress town for play with a Sorceress on one and a Knight on the other hand.

An additional problem is the generall vagueness of the strength a Necromancer develops on any given map.

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Apr 11 2007, 15:07

Speaking about Necro, there's one more imbalance that nobody mentioned so far, and it IS a problem on small maps in multiplayer ( i lsot to it quite a few times) played on normal difficulty level: the dreaded bone dragon rush.

The Bone Dragon structure is quite easy to make if you start the game with 10 of each resource. All you need to find then are the 10 sulfur for the Lich structure and you can get 4 bone dragons on day 8. On small maps, this is unstoppable, even by the quick build towns.

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Postby grobblewobble » Apr 11 2007, 15:43

Jolly Joker: I've been thinking about what would happen if each faction would be forced to play with only their native heroes, and think there's a problem. If there are 5 players playing faction A and one player with faction B, the ones playing with faction A can only hire one or two heroes, while the player with faction B can hire 8 heroes as usual..

Also, I still think it isn't "impossible" to balance the game as it is. If both heroes and towns are balanced against each other, what's the problem? Encouraging people to play with their native heroes is a nice idea, but I don't think the game balance absolutely demands it?

UndeadHalfOrc: Good remark! It's even a little worse than stated, because the laboratory costs only 5 of each. So if you start on normal, with 5 of each precious resource, you need the 10 sulfur.

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Postby UndeadHalfOrc » Apr 11 2007, 16:10

It's even a little worse than stated, because the laboratory costs only 5 of each. So if you start on normal, with 5 of each precious resource, you need the 10 sulfur.

Yeah, also correct, and it's coming back to me now.

Bone Dragon rush WAS a serious problem on many small maps back in 1997.

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Postby Campaigner » Apr 12 2007, 12:35

Belphegor: Found a way to change the % of damage of attack and defense yet and make flyers work like in Heroes III?
And the mageguild costs (of different factions?)

Sure it's powerful getting Bone Dragons early, but that means no upgraded creatures and no spells. And I think we should only focus on Hard, Expert and Impossible where starting resources are small and where the cpu plays to the best of its ability.

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Postby grobblewobble » Apr 12 2007, 13:27

Campaigner wrote:Belphegor: Found a way to change the % of damage of attack and defense yet and make flyers work like in Heroes III?
And the mageguild costs (of different factions?)

I can answer that question for him. Belphegor has found out how to change the cost of buildings, including mageguilds. He hasn't found out how to change the damage formula (that's extremely hard to mod!), nor how to make flyers/ranged units work like in H3 (even harder to mod).

Sure it's powerful getting Bone Dragons early, but that means no upgraded creatures and no spells.

Upgrading undead creatures is a totally unimportant, compared to getting bone dragons. Let me explain. One major difference between H2 and 3 is the well. Because of this building, one weekly growth of level 6 creatures is by far superior to one weekly growth of level 5 or lower. In H3, the HP of creatures and the absence of the well changed this. In H3, you get 2 bone dragons a week, which is worth less than 4 dreadknights. But in H2, you get 3 bone dragons a week, compared to 4 (power)lichs and 5 Vampire (Lords).

No spells - please take a good look at the cost of the laboratory again, it costs about as little precious resources as the second level mage guild. How cheap is that? You may have to forego building the second level mage guild, but with the combo haste + bone dragon available, the necro has no reason to complain about that!

And I think we should only focus on Hard, Expert and Impossible where starting resources are small and where the cpu plays to the best of its ability.

I don't think so. In games versus the AI, yes. But in multiplayer games, there is no reason to stick to the harder settings. Especially if there is no AI faction on the map. But even if you do play on harder settings, the necromancer can expect to be the first to get his level 6 unit.

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Postby Campaigner » Apr 12 2007, 15:08

Campaigner wrote:And I think we should only focus on Hard, Expert and Impossible where starting resources are small and where the cpu plays to the best of its ability.


grobblewobble wrote:I don't think so. In games versus the AI, yes. But in multiplayer games, there is no reason to stick to the harder settings. Especially if there is no AI faction on the map. But even if you do play on harder settings, the necromancer can expect to be the first to get his level 6 unit.


Ofcourse there is reason to play on Hard, Expert or Impossible! Starting resources and strenght of neutrals! A game on Impossible would be the ultimate challenge considering the powerful neutrals and the extreme lack of resources.
And Laboratory isn't exactly cheap. 5 of every resource and 10.000 gold. The problem is that people play on to low difficulties.

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Postby grobblewobble » Apr 12 2007, 16:27

Compared to the other level 6 dwellings, 5 of every recource (10 wood/ore) + 10 k gold is cheap. For example, the cathedral, one of the cheaper others, costs 20 w, 20 c. That's a lot harder to collect quickly, on most maps, especially because you already need so much wood for the other dwellings. Or compare with red tower: 20 m, 30 o, 15k gold.

Because of the well, getting your level 6 dwelling sooner than anybody else means you probably win. I have to add, though, that the other undead creatures are below average. Zombie and mummie are overpriced walker units, vampires aren't that good without the expensive upgrade, lichs are overpriced and unwieldy because of the area effect.

So as it currently stands, the possibility to get (underpriced) bone dragons is somewhat balanced by overpriced other units. In my experience, playing necromancer on harder difficulties is somewhat of a gamble. Often you can build the laboratory in the second week, which means you have a great start (or win downright, if the map is small). But if that fails, you have a horrible start.

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Postby chaosgorgon » Apr 12 2007, 17:31

you can test with som WOG innovations, i still play H2, beacuse is faster than H3... i preffer AoWSM than H3 -even WoG-, because is faster

dont know if could be possible to add a new town

maybe spellcasting for creatues???

anyway how can you edit h2 code???
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Postby gravyluvr » Apr 12 2007, 19:12

3 Quick things....

1. I'd like to suggest the name of a MOD be Newly Forged World, just so we can refer to it as the NFW acronym! It's a play on New World Computing, the Forge Town, and the word Forge.

2. Can't you effect the ability to hire certain races by changing the ratio of times a non-faction is offered at the tavern?

3. Somebody should start playing with the code. If there are enough coders out there you could break up things into different teams. One team works on balance. One team works on features. One team on artwork. Etc. Etc. Et.c
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Postby Kristo » Apr 12 2007, 20:11

gravyluvr wrote:2. Can't you effect the ability to hire certain races by changing the ratio of times a non-faction is offered at the tavern?

If we could find the data in the exe file, then sure. AFAIK, no one has found that yet.

gravyluvr wrote:3. Somebody should start playing with the code. If there are enough coders out there you could break up things into different teams. One team works on balance. One team works on features. One team on artwork. Etc. Etc. Et.c

Umm, except we don't have any code to work from. If we did, this would have been a done deal long ago. We're trying to make sense out of raw machine code and data in the exe file. All that's been uncovered so far are a few data tables.

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Postby Campaigner » Apr 12 2007, 23:04

Kristo: Get AngelSpit to contact the Heroes II creators then. They can tell us everything we need to know. And it's better that you contact him since you're one of his handpicked minions :p

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Postby Kristo » Apr 13 2007, 1:07

I sent a PM to AS asking if he has any contacts with the Heroes II developers. I'm fairly certain they can't legally provide us with source code, but they might be able to give us not-so-subtle hints to point us in the right direction. It's worth a shot. Then again, it has been about 10 years and they probably don't have photographic memories.


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