Tactics = IMBA

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Banedon
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Tactics = IMBA

Unread postby Banedon » 06 Jan 2006, 00:40

A continuation...sure, by now, the topic is irrelevant, but that spares me having to think up a new title :)
Also you forgot to mention that knights have first strike, which means that they take less damage from most enemy creatures than angels (provided they do kill some creatures with their attacks), this kind of counters their lower HP compared to angels.
Yes, that's a powerful argument in favour of Knights. I still prefer Angels (if only because of Resurrection) though.
Banedon; I agree... maybe potions of mirth are not so good, summoning satyrs is probably a better option (the first round the enemy heroes won't start first anyways -unless if they have the class ability that gives max moral, and summoning a satyr allows the to hero start first next round, as well as absorb atleast one attack/retal), not that I do that; I don't mind having my heroes getting their turn in the middle of the round; it has it's advantages (when countering spells or using P'soI).
Ah, but they are! It's only natural to give the Crusader class to any Tactician or Life Priest in an army.

Maybe you don't mind moving in the middle of the round, but that results in some serious repercussions. Like I said, you could lose a whole lot more units just because of morale (check post #139 in the last thread).
I didn't have GM life, only master. That is the exact reason btw of me not mentioning sanctuary and such.
You listed the spell Guardian Angel in the last post, which is a lvl 5 spell, isn't it?
My army might be biased... I gave you 3 level 9 sorcerers and a level 9 tactician vs 3 level 8, a level 7, a level 6 and a level 3 heroes, two of which was sitting duck through the battle. And mass cancellation is a level 5 spell, I doubt you would get it.
Your army is biased not because of this, but because you gave the Chaos army no weapons with which to effect a counter. Shall I show you an example? Instead of those 4 heroes I get a lvl 15 Barbarian with an infinite supply of Potions of Immortality. You get the same 6 heroes, but coincidentally, NONE of them know Cancellation nor Dispel. This is not to say you cannot win, but it will siginificantly complicate the battle.
yea harassing... but not for gold, for creatures... and on a map where it is the ONLY source of creatures (by creatures i mean level 4's, who cares about the rest)... and on a map where only YOU start with scouting... and on a map where everyone starts with a 5 heroes (so heroes are abundant)... and level 4's to start, no work... sure, whatever--- and still if i just ignore you and do a magellan's voyage with my full army I might beat you, you can harass all you want while i gain xp
You see my point! *claps* I still don't see how you can accumulate more experience than me though since it's not my main heroes who perform the harassing.
now show me when you have 3 blacks versus 10 champs
This won't happen if you use pure numbers like you did. I came to that conclusion from the map itself. If you get 10 Champions and then attempt to force a confrontation, I'd retreat, wait till I get the third Black Dragon and then strike back. That's how I end up with 3 Black Dragons against 10 Champions (since your other 2 Champions would not be able to join up with the main group yet).

As for the fight itself...I don't really mind; if we fight at Grandmaster level than so be it. Then I should have more or less the same as you:

Level 15 Sorcerer (GM Chaos, Advanced Combat, Advanced Magic Resistance, Basic Nature)
Level 15 Sorcerer (GM Chaos, Advanced Combat, Advanced Magic Resistance, Basic Nature)
Level 15 General (M Tactics, GM Offense, GM Defense, Expert Combat, Expert Magic Resistance, Advanced Death)
Level 12 Ranger (GM Pathfinding, Advanced Combat, Advanced Magic Resistance, Advanced Death)
Level 15 Assassin (GM Death, Advanced Combat, Advanced Magic Resistance, Basic Chaos)
Level 3 (?) Other Hero, knowing as much basic magics as possible
3 Black Dragons

This battle may not be fair, since I have 3 GM casters against your 2 (I wonder where the third went?). You should have 12 Champions. My spell selection should be quite simple: Disintegrate and Mass Cancellation, as well as Cancellation on the General. Mass Misfortune too would be a fine spell to have.

*********

Anyway SmokingBarrel pointed this out while we were discussing last night. Chaos has Thieves who, with the Learning Stones, Dream Teachers and the Battle Academy, may well be level 7 by week 2-3. They'd learn Expert Stealth, and once this happens they'd be difficult to control. They'd be able to harass you, and you won't be able to stop them effectively.

Wonder if you have a solution to that.

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Unread postby csarmi » 06 Jan 2006, 11:13

Guardian angel is a level 4 spell in equilibris.

You may take a level 15 barbarian with infinite potions and such. Even make me not having dispel. My army easily beats it. Without losses (i have to use up spellpoints though).

For blackie/knights number: I just sit my main army on your blackie dwelling with 4k+1 knights (4k+2 is harder).

EXpert stealth is nothing.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 07 Jan 2006, 00:26

I'm just saying that our heroes won't be too low level compared to yours since you typed that our heroes would be lower level than yours.

We play without equilibris so its kinda a mess...

It deoesn't matter if its nothing. The main thing is currently I am harrassing you. You can stay at the black dragon dwelling for all you want,my chaos thieves would just harass you and take your knights chapter.

It's not that easy to learn those other magic and skills. Seems as though you are just putting down all the order magics and pathfinding...so on.(Unless I my gameplay is not as good as yours...)

Are you sure you are able to get all those spells from the mage guild and altars?

If you went on a long voyage and got all your exp, your knights chapter will be vunerable. My thieves will take it...

What exactly are you using to ward of line of sight? Who are on the first row? You are blocking which unit or hero?List all of them down please.

The disintergrate can do 528 damage given I have no socery(Unless equilibris changed that)

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Unread postby Banedon » 07 Jan 2006, 01:30

You know I DID say you will probably still win (since by these levels, the Barbarian should be much higher level), but it would be far more inconvenient than if you had Dispel / Cancellation.
For blackie/knights number: I just sit my main army on your blackie dwelling with 4k+1 knights (4k+2 is harder).
It just so hapens that the Black Dragon dwelling is deep inside my land, and if you come, I will just attack you. It doesn't matter from my point of view if I have only 2 Black Dragons at the time of confrontation, since chances are you'd have less than 8 Champions if you march into my land.

Besides, if you sit your main army on my Black Dragon dwelling you are essentially not getting any experience.
EXpert stealth is nothing.
No, it's something. Once two Thieves learn that and they continuously attempt to take your Knight's Chapter, you'd have some difficulty stopping them. Sit your army there? My army would cross the map and get more experience, while yours can't even track down the Thieves. Leave a smaller force there? The Thieves may be able to kill them (or at least wear them down, forcing you to spend more gold). Expert Stealth will mean something.

If you think a battle at Master level is fairer, that's fine with me too.

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Unread postby csarmi » 07 Jan 2006, 10:38

Getting expert stealth is about the worst thing you can do. You waste a lot of XP for a crappy skill. It will never pay off. With that effort you can get to GM pathfinding which is much better.

What I said was that I can go to your BD dwelling with 9-10 knights easily while you have 2 black dragons. If you attack me, that's fine. If you don't, I take your 3rd Blackie and it's game over.

But that's only a casual plan. Most likely I just travel around the map and take all the XP. You can harass however you want; take my knights, I don't care... If I get an edge in hero experience, no army strength can make up for that.

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Unread postby Banedon » 07 Jan 2006, 11:37

Well on a main hero Expert Stealth would surely be a waste - but it's not on a main hero anyway.

If you're going to force a confrontation that way, OK, but you won't have more than 9 Knights at most - it's a long, threacherous way to the Black Dragon dwelling.

And - I don't see how you absolutely fail to grasp this point - it is not my main hero / army that is harassing, it's my other, supporting heroes. Therefore go on a long voyage as you will. I will too. And when I come back, there'd be 4+ Black Dragons waiting for me, 0 Knights for you, AND roughly the same experience for the both of us.

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Unread postby csarmi » 07 Jan 2006, 16:30

You still fail to see that any XP you take with your non-main heroes is a waste. Now getting to level 7 thief is a huge investment. I will have that xp too, but I shall use it well.

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Unread postby Banedon » 08 Jan 2006, 01:20

You are mistaken. You think I will use my secondary heroes to conduct any battles? No! I'd use them only to take Learning Stones, Dream Teachers, Battle Scholar Academies and perhaps to kill some of your creatures (where it'd be too dangerous for my main army to venture too for the moment). Everything else belongs to my main army. Getting to level 7 may be a long stretch, but since secondary heroes have nothing better to do, they can wander around looking for experience structures.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 08 Jan 2006, 01:26

Might not surely be level 7,but that does not matter...Expert stealth might not surely be needed(Oops Banedon flaw in discussion that time) Advance might be good enough...

I can also take the learning stones and dream teachers in your land...If you go on a voyage, surely I will do so too. And during that time, the thieves wll harass you and take your knights...How would you handle that?

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Unread postby csarmi » 08 Jan 2006, 13:04

Of course the 4 gm armies defeat me, but not because of the dragons: because of the mass cancel and getting disintegrate is lucky too. Of course I can counter it if my scouts tell me in time, but not with this type of army.

I imprison your thieves, that's how I handle it. I don't really understand btw, this is all symmetric. And you are even more vulnerable to it.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 08 Jan 2006, 23:45

Err...just wondering...how are you going to imprison the thieves?

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Unread postby Vulcanic » 09 Jan 2006, 00:02

If the main army comes close enough it can wallop your thief.

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Unread postby Banedon » 09 Jan 2006, 02:58

I see you get what the "your army is biased towards Chaos" means. The GM army I propose will wallop your army, because it is equipped with weapons against it: namely, (Mass) Cancellation (Disintegrate isn't that important and can probably be replaced by Implosion).

As for imprisoning the Thieves, it comes to one thing: can your army kill the thieves in one move? I don't think so. Angels move far, but it can't reach a Thief on the second line on turn 1. Do you have combat heroes that, with good morale, are able to kill the thieves in one shot? I doubt it. Do you have Song of Peace, Confusion, Wasp Swarm? Probably, but then that can be easily countered by giving the Thief 6 Bandits. And, finally, if you station your main army outside the Knight's Chapter, I will be the one grabbing all the map's experience.

Wonder what counter you have in mind, by the way, because I can't see any even if you build combat heroes.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 09 Jan 2006, 03:07

Banedon wrote:
Angels move far, but it can't reach a Thief on the second line on turn 1.y
Champions,not angels

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Unread postby csarmi » 09 Jan 2006, 09:05

No, if you drop disintegrate, you are going to lose the fight. Especially if I go the old-fashioned way and get two GM life casters instead of a Monk+Pala.

And your level 8-9 army is simply a bad one, that's why it loses. Mass chaos casters are not that effective, especially at those levels. My army was just a normal/weak life starter.

I don't have to reach the thief. If it gets home, that's enough. A low level thief with some troops (or two low level ones) are easily killed by a champion and a few low level troops, for example.
Last edited by csarmi on 09 Jan 2006, 12:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Banedon » 09 Jan 2006, 10:14

Well if you drop Disintegrate and give me GM Sorcery (or its equilavent) such that my Implosion does the same damage as Disintegrate, I don't think I'd lose. The target is not the heroes, it's the Champions, and they're going to die no matter what your Life Priests do (as long as I have Cancellation).
And your level 8-9 army is simply a bad one, that's why it loses. Mass chaos casters are not that effective, especially at those levels. My army was just a normal/weak life starter.
And who made that army, pray tell? :-D

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Unread postby csarmi » 09 Jan 2006, 16:21

you

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Unread postby Banedon » 10 Jan 2006, 01:31

No, you did. You gave me 3 Chaos Sorcerers and 1 Death Knight - amazingly - without Cancellation or Dispel. Notice, once you gave me control, I immediately placed a GM Death Necromancer with Mass Cancellation into the battlefield. You made that army, and you made it to lose.

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Unread postby SmokingBarrel » 10 Jan 2006, 01:37

Hey whoa don't need to get all worked up. I used that army against Banedon since his playing style is different from yours. Are you guys talking about that?

The thief is not too low level, and if you are going to use a champion or 2 champions against the thieves then your main army will be significantly weaker. The thieves can just retreat too.There are 2 thieves doing the job, not just one.

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Unread postby Banedon » 10 Jan 2006, 01:57

No, we're talking about a time earlier in this topic (in the last forum) where csarmi gave me 3 Chaos Sorcerers, 1 Death Knight and 2 Black Dragons while he had 2 Life Priests, 1 Druid, 1 Knight, 2 other heroes who didn't cast spells and 10 Knights. He fought that battle, wiped the Black Dragons out and claimed that that proved that the Chaos strategy simply doesn't work.


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