Fortress (H3)

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Derek
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Unread postby Derek » 20 Nov 2006, 15:27

Banedon wrote:Sure, by all means.

Note: I do think Fortress is capable of offering effective resistance to Rampart; I just think Rampart will win more often than not. Rampart will suffer heavy casualties, yes, but Rampart will win.
Okay, what hero would you like to have on your(Rampart) side?

Fortress will have Tazar, go figure. :D

Also, what 'level' should the heroes be on? Personally, I'd rather have something like 10-15 and have mid month two forces. Level 7 would be in full swing, but low levels would still have a valuable point yet.
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Unread postby The Mad Dragon » 20 Nov 2006, 15:35

Maybe a map should be made regarding this and have it played out by two ppl that know these races inside and out.

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Unread postby Pol » 20 Nov 2006, 16:08

*Just a reminder:*
When is true that some rampart heroes start with elves (especially Ivor) it's also true that fortress start with serpent flies, even more, one of its heroes can start with basilisk, which would be ideal to counterstrike. Bron, sure, he is the man.

When we imaginebattle in the second week, Rampart would have relative lots of low level units (1-3) and one Green Dragon. Fortress is, from the other hand, quite capable to get gorgons, or some more wyverns and/or hydras. (Seriously cannot calculate quality of the hero, losses taken in getting mines and free skirmishing with neutrals. Which would be decisive factor here. )

Here are several scenarios possibilities as there is more variations to develop, anyway on neutral terrain the outgoings would be very close. Personally I think that Rampart have no ultimative advantage so result will be close to 50:50. Not a big deal, really.
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Unread postby Banedon » 20 Nov 2006, 16:09

Easy to say, hard to do. Playing an actual game takes a whole lot of time and coordination, and besides it requires both players to have Heroes 3 installed :)

Kyrre is the best Rampart hero, but she's also imbalanced so not her I guess. I think I'll go with Ivor (and you can give me about an extra 6 Grand Elves :)). Mephala would also be a good choice, but it doesn't fit my style that well.

For skills, Earth Magic, Offense, Armorer, Logistics, Tactics (which I assume you will have as well), Water Magic, Wisdom and one more skill which I oddly seem to have a mindblock over what it should be. They won't all be Expert if it's level 15, but the Expert magics especially would be crucial.

Early in Month 2 is fine with me; in fact most of the games I've played come to the crunch exactly at this time. At 15 per week and built during the first turn, I should have around 70 (15 * 4 + 7 from first week + some extra from Ivor) Grand Elves, which would be my main killing force. All the other creatures would be present, though in a more realistic scenario I probably won't have Battle Dwarves since I dont' build them.

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Unread postby Mace the Councillor » 20 Nov 2006, 18:07

Metathron wrote:Compared to other factions, fortress always seemed to me to be at a disadvantage (stronghold did as well, but to a much lesser extent). I enjoyed picking them despite that, and trying to prove that they are worth the effort all the same. :)
No kidding. It is the worst alignment in the game, by far. Stronghold is the second worst. They are both weak in magic, at only level 3 maximum. Castle also has a lesser disadvantage in magic compared to other alignments, at maximum level 4, but at least that faction has kick butt archangels to make up for it. The level 7 creatures of the Stronghold and Fortress aren't nearly as good as the archangels.

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Unread postby Derek » 20 Nov 2006, 20:35

Yeah, this would be hard to coordinate(but I think it can be done).

Now, you(Banedon) do not necesarily have to have the game installed for this to work. Although ludicrous in the extreme, and I have thought about it, I could pm(or email), because this would take so long through posts, the shots of the battle to you. It would be like playing chess through the mail or something along those lines.

Although the forces would be optimized, I think it should(or at least help) to show how good these two competing factions are.

Tazar will likely have Armorer, Wisdom, Tactics, Water or Earth Magic and logistics. Probably not all expert, wisdom and logistics for example, but this should be good enough for a test.

Shall we say, all units are got in second week for both sides? I know fortress can do this consitantly on hard, and I somehow think Rampart can aswell. What about other troops? Wyverns, and flies and under are in first week for sure...but what about the Rampart?

Oh yeah, if this starts to sound stupid(it sort of is to me) it's okay to just say no! :D
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Unread postby Banedon » 21 Nov 2006, 00:33

Nah, I trust you. Only if you start saying my Grand Elves deal a grand total of 10 damage with their two shots to your Chaos Hydras will I require proof :)

In the All For One test I did long ago I did manage to get all the dwellings (well, except Dwarves) by the end of week 2, with a Castle. First week I can probably reach Grand Elves, Centaur Captains and Dendroids. It's the second week when you really start to scramble up the TecH tree.
No kidding. It is the worst alignment in the game, by far. Stronghold is the second worst. They are both weak in magic, at only level 3 maximum. Castle also has a lesser disadvantage in magic compared to other alignments, at maximum level 4, but at least that faction has kick butt archangels to make up for it. The level 7 creatures of the Stronghold and Fortress aren't nearly as good as the archangels.
You know, a well-played Stronghold can thump Castle in a game, just because Stronghold expands faster and builds up its forces sooner. Fortress is unable to do that, but if you consider how dangerous Death Stare is Fortress would again wreck serious pain. I do think however that Castle too would defeat Fortress in a game like this one.

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Unread postby Mace the Councillor » 21 Nov 2006, 15:13

Banedon wrote:You know, a well-played Stronghold can thump Castle in a game, just because Stronghold expands faster and builds up its forces sooner. Fortress is unable to do that, but if you consider how dangerous Death Stare is Fortress would again wreck serious pain. I do think however that Castle too would defeat Fortress in a game like this one.
Yes, I suppose that can be true in really fast games with short distances, because as you say, Stronghold doesn't take long to build up forces. However, in larger maps (and the vast majority of maps are too large for the Stronghold's advantages to come to full effect, in my experience) the Castle is going to win. The archangels are just far too good for any Stronghold creature to compete, once you have managed to build them up.

But then again, it was years since I really played Heroes III the last time, so I may remember incorrectly.

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Unread postby Banedon » 21 Nov 2006, 15:44

In a large map chances are there'll be neutral castles around. Stronghold then has to exploit his advantage and seize more castles than the Castle player can. The numerical advantage would increase, and perhaps Stronghold can still pull off a victory.

The large majority of maps are small enough for Stronghold to exploit the advantage, in my opinion. Stronghold can field 9 Thunderbirds on week two - a force stronger than any other save Inferno's 6 Efreet Sultans. He will dominate the map, seize all the mines and hopefully take any neutral castles available. An early-game advantage can very well rule over late-game power. It depends to a point on individual skill.

PS: Ancient Behemoths seriously compete against Archangels, and as far as I know one Ancient Behemoth kills one Archangel. But this is out of the point; Stronghold derives his power from early-game advantages.

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Unread postby vhilhu » 21 Nov 2006, 17:56

Banedon wrote:You know, a well-played Stronghold can thump Castle in a game, just because Stronghold expands faster and builds up its forces sooner. Fortress is unable to do that, but if you consider how dangerous Death Stare is Fortress would again wreck serious pain. I do think however that Castle too would defeat Fortress in a game like this one.
Fortress is unable for good earlygame? WYVERNS? if you dont make wyverns your priority no 1 in the start, then of course they suck. but wyverns otherwise rule as early game units. no other faction can get so high unit so prequisitelessy and at such low price. you must just step over basilisks(they cost too much for their rather average power) & serpentflies(good against blessing heroes, thus useless against early neutrals) and you find the money for that. wyverns have had some heavy criticism, but they dont deserve it, they are great early units.

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Unread postby Banedon » 22 Nov 2006, 00:07

Rushing Wyverns leave you severely short on wood, and it's not that they're heavy-damage units that allow you to blitz the map...

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Unread postby Derek » 22 Nov 2006, 01:31

Maybe we'll do this some other time...

Gah(!), I just never have enough time when I want to do crazy stuff! :D
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Unread postby Pol » 22 Nov 2006, 07:46

Banedon wrote:Rushing Wyverns leave you severely short on wood, and it's not that they're heavy-damage units that allow you to blitz the map...
They are, it's theirs purpose. Probably weakest of all units with such goal but definitively first. The Fortress can develop pretty quick, well, it need more of basic resources so they must be placed already. Armorer, Wyverns and Shield is deadly combo. Though sometimes working to go with Basilisk when you have the Bron, unfortunately it's risky.
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Unread postby Banedon » 22 Nov 2006, 09:48

I don't know, but I sure am more worried about 6 Efreet Sultans than 6 Wyverns.

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Unread postby vhilhu » 22 Nov 2006, 14:09

getting wyvern dwelling wood is the only problem for fortress earlygame. if you dont get any wood piles, its screwed. but, @banedon, you really, in absolutely NO WAY on a usual map can get efreet sultans on day 1 or 2. if you make efeets on week 1, therell be a serious short of cash.

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Unread postby Banedon » 22 Nov 2006, 16:01

The general gameplan is:

1. Buy another hero of the same town type (in this case, Inferno).
2. Combine armies and clear as many mines as you can. It does not matter if you lose creatures at this point.
3. Build up the castle! You don't need Upg. Fire Lake, but you will want the Fire Lake and preferably Castle done by week 1.
4. Week two rolls around, you buy all 6 Efreet Sultans and set off on a trip which you'll never come back from by week 2 day 2 at latest.

It can be done. My brother did this to me many times over on Hard difficulty. On Expert it's not so easy to reach Castle on week 1, but 5 Efreet Sultans is almost as dangerous.

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Unread postby Pol » 22 Nov 2006, 16:20

Please count money for reaching the Sultans or Wyverns. And, between us, did you noticed that Inferno and Fortress are best allies?

The problem with such estimation is map. But from early develop, Inferno and Fortress are going quite close. Inferno drawback, for someone, could be Magogs. Fortress did not suffer from such problem and, in addition, it's even faster.

The Fortress idea is not like in Castle, build most powerful unit and get rid of enemy with it (Alas See my power Asstards!), instead is based on cooperation between all units. This is usually secured by Armorer, Tactics, Water, Earth, Logistic, Leadership and others.

Again only difficulty which I'm able to discuss is Impossible. Honestly, I encourage you, get Sultans here if you can :D
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Unread postby Banedon » 23 Nov 2006, 00:18

The problem with Fortress rushing Wyverns isn't Gold, it's Wood. Sure you can get to the Wyvern dwellings early, but then you would have drained your Wood reserves and stopped yourself from Marketplace / Mage Guild / Blacksmith / City Hall.

If I'm playing Inferno I don't get Magogs. Just get the Imps and Gogs and go seize the mines...

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Unread postby Pol » 23 Nov 2006, 07:45

Even on original maps from 3DO when the starting town was Fortress here were usually caches of the primary resources for them. So if you had streched the hand....

This is, however, question of map and hereby mapmakers. (And they ought to.)

For example on "Realm of Chaos" the wood reserve around your Fortress is sufficent.

Personally I'm going for Magogs for theirs speed boost, though, according the situation, I may have Magogs as Gogs or only one of them in my armies.


So to clear the question, when here won't be the wood problem? And you have it :D
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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 28 Nov 2006, 12:05

Olmer123 wrote: 3) Fortress army isn't actually TAHT durable. It is the beastmaster who makes it. Especially Tazar is insane with his armorer. You actually need a HERO, not some good strategy (of course it is always welcome but...). Bringing a barbarian, or at least Mephala is imho very good idea. Then you'll find that the sheer force of Rampart may be enough (if you play good that is).
Experience sharing :

To get a better picture on the creatures involved, yesterday I played an old Thousand Island map. This map require you to kill a Fortress hero with his/her critters in the mid-south of the map.

I'm using Cyra, and by the time she reached lvl 18, a camp of 48 grand elves joined. By then Cyra already had attack skill of 16, she has no Archery, but Expert Water, Air (complete will all the spells you want to maximize her ranged damage) plus artifacts bow cherrywood and angel arrow (that's a +5 % and + 15% ) which I think compensates the lack of Archery skill.

I go to storm one Necropolis. Cyra was lucky to get it unguarded, but there's still around skeletons, zombies, and vampires. Using her skill, I cast Precision and shoot the zombies with grand elves. To my surprise, they can take only 20 zombies then despite the fact of all the enhancement I put them with. Of course, the zombies were behind the castle gate.

Later I take on one neutral demons. Cyra now has 18 attack but the grand elves were downed to 44. Blessed, they can take out 15 demons.

Storming the Fortress castle, I found it to be guarded by Tiva with 10 defense skill. Didn't know what skills she'd got. Her chaos hydra foolishly stand in front of the gate, and I blocked them with naga queens. I used 249 archmagi to put an end to the 35 chaos hydra. It didn't work. Blessed, they were able to kill only 7 chaos hydra. And that's without range penalty. I didn't even consider bringing along that 44 grand elves.

Unlike certain others, I'm not very good at calculating things. What I said was what happened in my experience, not in my calculator.

I'm sorry, but I get an impression that to say grand elves will simply take care of anything for Rampart is a bit of exaggeration (especially against Fortress). At least, they're not going to do that with sheer power.

And to say that Fortress creatures are actually not that durable is of course should be explained with what durability means in the first place.


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