Fortress (H3)

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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 05 Nov 2006, 09:12

Not really. Even if Rampart starts with mass slow, dragon flies will still move before the elves, which would give Fortress the chance to cast forgetfulness/blind/etc. and that couldn't be cured until next round. All it means is that both players would be at a standoff as far as ranged combat goes. Actually, in this case, Fortress still has it's weak but useful lizardmen who can still shoot. Sooner or later, the hydras and gorgons would close in and then it's all over. Trying to get the dendroids to bind is a good idea, but because they move last, it might be too late.
Right. Mass Slow is a mistake. What would be important then would be to surround the Grand Elves and then cast a spell only after Fortress casts one (probably Mass Slow). Fortress can't beat Rampart in a ranged duel. If worst comes to worst, the Gold Dragons can fly over to inflict damage and then return at the start of the next round.
Another alternative is to counter with mass haste. Ramparts high speed creatures would have used up their turns moving in to protect the elves. But then they'd be in a world of hurt from the hydras who could cross the field in one turn and the dragons would go down against the gorgons. Sure, the elves could then kill a lot of creatures after (unless you wait with all your creatures the first round and take half damage), but Rampart couldn't keep up against the sustained melee onslaught by Fortress. Eventually, Ramparts defense would fall apart. Also, grouping all your units in the corner leaves them vulnerable to spells like meteor shower and chain lighting if you happen to be fighting a magic hero. Luckily, the unicorns give some magic resistance, but it's still no gurantee.
Right, that's why casting Mass Slow before your opponent casts a spell in that round is a mistake (I still remember how I, with Necropolis, almost lost a similar battle because of it...). And the question isn't whether Rampart's defenses will fall apart - they will, because in a final battle both sides will take serious casualties. The question is whether Rampart can take down significant fractions of the Fortress force before having to open the way to the Elves. I believe that is possible. At full damage Grand Elves deal very heavy pain, and being ganged by all the creatures in the Rampart army takes its toll as well.

Damaging spells are generally irrelevant, because come the final battle the spells to cast are the mass blesses.
He he he....come to think of it, just how much elves, or anything else those are would you think you can muster together to brought down hydra so easily ?

Actually, Fortress is not that much dependent to any single spell such as Teleport. It is a good addition to say nonetheless, but it's not critically important. That's why Fortress play with less spell than anyone else. Otherwise, itsn't Fortress is it ?
Let the Grand Elves shoot first, then gang on the Hydras with all the creatures. The Hydras will suffer more than they hurt. No creature, no matter how sturday, can survive that.

Teleport is the single spell I most worry about against Fortress; it allows Fortress to target the level 7s on the battlefield at will. Without it, Fortress is much weaker.
I actually like to play with that artifact that negate all spells (forget the name) around, it can be quite handy for Fortress.
THAT artifact is imbalanced. Where would Dungeon be if the opposing hero has it?

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 06 Nov 2006, 01:19

Fortress doesn't have to beat Rampart in a ranged duel. Like I mentioned before, there are enough spells/strategies to nullify the elves. Dragon flies could fly over before Rampart could protect and kill a ton of them. So each factions level 3 would cancel each other out. Then Fortress would have the edge in ranged combat and is virtually unmatched in mellee combat.

Or as I also mentioned before, since dragon flies will move before elves, Fortress has a chance to teleport any of it's units in front of them. So hydras could retal against at least 3 of ramparts creatures if Rampart tried protecting the elves. Then it would attack again the same turn, dealing huge casulties.
Damaging spells are generally irrelevant, because come the final battle the spells to cast are the mass blesses.
I wouldn't underestimate damage spells. Especially since elves only have 15 health, they'll be gone before you know it.

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Unread postby Banedon » 06 Nov 2006, 11:27

Fortress doesn't have to beat Rampart in a ranged duel. Like I mentioned before, there are enough spells/strategies to nullify the elves. Dragon flies could fly over before Rampart could protect and kill a ton of them. So each factions level 3 would cancel each other out. Then Fortress would have the edge in ranged combat and is virtually unmatched in mellee combat.
No, Fortress doesn't have enough spells / strategies to nullify the Elves. Think about it. Dragon Flies could fly over and stop the Elves from shooting, but they would have to be opposite the Elves (how's that going to happen?) and they would place themselves within range of all Rampart's creatures. They'd probably all be dead at the start of the next round, which would empower the Elves to shoot again.

And Fortress isn't unmatched in melee combat. Fortress has only Chaos Hydras, Mighty Gorgons and Wyvern Monarches (I'm taking it that your Greater Basiliks take rather more time to get over). Now you can't get all of them over in one turn; you will have to take multiple turns to support whatever unit you Teleport over. Rampart's melee units are not to be underestimated (you appear to have missed the fact that Centaur Captains are one of the best level 1s, Pegasi deal fine damage and War Unicorns hurt a lot). And Rampart will thrash Fortress in a purely ranged duel. Just like you can sacrifice your Dragon Flies to stop the Elves from shooting, Rampart can sacrifice the Silver Pegasi to stop the Lizard Warriors from shooting (though why Rampart would do that is beyond me - Elves deal way more damage than Lizard Warriors).
Or as I also mentioned before, since dragon flies will move before elves, Fortress has a chance to teleport any of it's units in front of them. So hydras could retal against at least 3 of ramparts creatures if Rampart tried protecting the elves. Then it would attack again the same turn, dealing huge casulties.
Right. And Rampart would accept those casualties in return for having the Elves dealing full damage. Remember, if you Teleport your Hydras without blocking the Elves, the Elves would get two shots at full damage, and that might well compensate for the increased retaliation damage.

If Fortress Teleports units beside the Elves (should not happen; Rampart really should protect the Elves - with Tactics, maybe. If not, then maybe splitting the Elf stack) then the Elves shouldn't attack. Instead pile on the focus firing and kill the Hydras. The retaliation damage will be hideous, but if the battle proper begins with Rampart having no Elves and Fortress having no Chaos Hydras, the winner will be obvious.

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Unread postby Dread Knight » 06 Nov 2006, 20:04

I think that Fortress could have bigger problem with Necro.The Mighty Gorgon`s Dead Stare doesn`t works.They have some Powerfull Liches too and maybe the skeletons would be a problem.The Zombies are Hardcore even little bit weak.And the wights will take even the little spell points of the Swamp hero. ;).For the Knights are the Hydras and maybe the Vampire Lords must take care for the Dragon Flies.For the Ghost Dragons are the Lizard Mens and what rests from the wyverns and Basiliks :D
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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 07 Nov 2006, 04:24

Banedon wrote: Let the Grand Elves shoot first, then gang on the Hydras with all the creatures. The Hydras will suffer more than they hurt. No creature, no matter how sturday, can survive that.
That must say something about sending a single stack to your enemy's rank doesn't ? You're right, I've done that myself, and it didn't work well. That way you're sending a small part of your creatures to be attacked by a much larger force. You should done the opposite.

I won't recommend that. What you have to do is send all your creatures at relatively the same time, therefore you can attack simultaneously.

Given the Fortress' relatively similar speed and size among its creatures, that can be arranged rather easily, you won't lose as significant moment as if you're using other town. That also what makes spells rather ineffective against Fortress, you can't hit them real hard unless you hit them all at once, which is impossible at most conditions.
Teleport is the single spell I most worry about against Fortress; it allows Fortress to target the level 7s on the battlefield at will. Without it, Fortress is much weaker.

Actually, hydras are not that good offensive creature. Their attack is rather awkward, and the damage is not superb. But they're very annoying to be around, and unnerving when they're in front of your enemy's rank. That's what you should hydras for, to annoy your enemy, and make sure all the other get the job done.

In your case, the elves are like a bait, and if you're worried about taking them down, then you take the bait, and sending your creatures one by one, which itself is not a sound strategy. You should know that given Fortress' high defense, it would take really lot of them to take your hydras, so you shouldn't bother them much.

If Teleport would come into play, you'd better teleport your other creatures like gnolls or lizardmen.
THAT artifact is imbalanced. Where would Dungeon be if the opposing hero has it?
I always though Dungeon would be better lead by overlords than warlocks B-)
But that's only an example, if your Fortress army would be lead by hero with spells, that'd be much more annoying than if the hero has no spells at all.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 07 Nov 2006, 04:30

Dread Knight wrote:I think that Fortress could have bigger problem with Necro.The Mighty Gorgon`s Dead Stare doesn`t works.They have some Powerfull Liches too and maybe the skeletons would be a problem.The Zombies are Hardcore even little bit weak.And the wights will take even the little spell points of the Swamp hero. ;).For the Knights are the Hydras and maybe the Vampire Lords must take care for the Dragon Flies.For the Ghost Dragons are the Lizard Mens and what rests from the wyverns and Basiliks :D
You should take the Necro before they had time to expand and have impossible number of skeletons.

If you played on Impossible, that can be done rather easily, because Necro need a whole lot of various resources not readily available, even more so to upgrade, and unupgraded, most of Necro creatures are rather well, underbalanced. If the map you're playing at is really balanced, then the favor would turn into Fortress even more.

Not that Fortress is unbeatable. Other towns with relatively similar or quite opposite arrangement to Fortress such as Inferno, Castle, Dungeon, can pose real problem.

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Unread postby Banedon » 07 Nov 2006, 14:59

That must say something about sending a single stack to your enemy's rank doesn't ? You're right, I've done that myself, and it didn't work well. That way you're sending a small part of your creatures to be attacked by a much larger force. You should done the opposite.

I won't recommend that. What you have to do is send all your creatures at relatively the same time, therefore you can attack simultaneously.
There's a twofold problem with the slower approach. One, it gives the Rampart player more than enough time to barricade in the Grand Elves as well as giving them a shot (albeit at half damage). Two, it allows the Rampart player to advance his Dendroids and hopefully bind either the Chaos Hydras or Mighty Gorgons in place, which would have serious repercussions.

Teleport is, in my opinion, the only chance. You'll have to pick an opportune time to Teleport, sacrificing that one stack for the opportunity to get the others into play. After all, starting the battle with no Chaos Hydras in return for no Elves and Gold Dragons (Death Stare :)) is going to result in a win for you. Rampart would of course do his utmost to avoid the Death Stare, and in this I believe Rampart has the advantage.
Actually, hydras are not that good offensive creature. Their attack is rather awkward, and the damage is not superb. But they're very annoying to be around, and unnerving when they're in front of your enemy's rank. That's what you should hydras for, to annoy your enemy, and make sure all the other get the job done.
I don't quite think so. Well in the case where you don't have Teleport then yes, Hydras are awkward to move around. But when you do you can count on hitting three of your opponent's stacks in a go, when the damage really shoots up. Once again Rampart will have to accept the casualties; in return the Hydras will die.
In your case, the elves are like a bait, and if you're worried about taking them down, then you take the bait, and sending your creatures one by one, which itself is not a sound strategy. You should know that given Fortress' high defense, it would take really lot of them to take your hydras, so you shouldn't bother them much.
For every Chaos Hydra present in the end battle there might be 15 Grand Elves. So if you have 10 Chaos Hydras the 150 Grand Elves might well kill 3-4 of them with their two shots (I didn't calculate; this is based on experience), which corresponds to a massive decrease in firepower.
If Teleport would come into play, you'd better teleport your other creatures like gnolls or lizardmen.
What for? If it were I, the prime targets for Teleport is the Mighty Gorgons (Teleport right next to the level 7s and Death Stare them) and the Chaos Hydras (Teleport right into the midst of the the enemies and wreck the damage).

But that's only an example, if your Fortress army would be lead by hero with spells, that'd be much more annoying than if the hero has no spells at all.
Same applies to every other army. A battle where one side has spells where the other doesn't is...rather one-sided.

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Unread postby Mytical » 07 Nov 2006, 16:54

Well actually the idea way to fight fortress is ironically in your own fortress. Because then there teleport doesn't help them, you have towers that (even if you can't control them neccessarily) will pepper the enemy with ranged damage. A moat that pretty much leaves them with 2 fliers and ranged to fight all of your units with (which is a bad bad thing) even if they take down your walls fast, ect with your elves you going to be raising havoc at will on any unit. If they block you with there flies then yeah they will stop you for a couple turns (at best) but then they have all the other units taking them down. Fortress may be the worst at fighting sieges...but I won't guarantee that. The more ranged/flying units you have the better. Now any town is going to suffer when attacking a city, but fortress just seems the least equiped.
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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 07 Nov 2006, 19:07

Banedon wrote:Dragon Flies could fly over and stop the Elves from shooting, but they would have to be opposite the Elves (how's that going to happen?)0
If Fortress is the one who started the battle, then all you have to do is rearranged your troops before attacking the hero. Stack splitting could work too, but it's undesirable for me.
and they would place themselves within range of all Rampart's creatures. They'd probably all be dead at the start of the next round, which would empower the Elves to shoot again.
Well, if we use your 150 grand elf example, there will also be 150 dragon flies. (Probably more, because I think flies have higher growth.) If they manage to fly over and attack, judging by experience, they might be able to kill close to half and cast weakness. If you have extra space, you can split flies in a stack of 1 to avoid retal. Then the flies would all be killed, but depending on the order of attack, their death could open up the space for the hydras to be teleported and then strike most of ramparts troops. If Rampart uses a spell before Fortress (for example, blind hydras or mass bless), then Fortress can cast blind/forgetfulness/airshield which would make whatever is remaining of the elves useless for the rest of combat. Casting cure will only result in Fortress countering with another blind From there, Fortress has better melee troops and still has one ranged unit compared to ramparts none.
Now you can't get all of them over in one turn; you will have to take multiple turns to support whatever unit you Teleport over.
All Fortress creatures should be within attacking range on their second turn.

Right. And Rampart would accept those casualties in return for having the Elves dealing full damage. Remember, if you Teleport your Hydras without blocking the Elves, the Elves would get two shots at full damage, and that might well compensate for the increased retaliation damage.
I meant teleport them by the elves. The order of attack would go something like: Dragons move to protect elves, Dragonflies are then up so hero casts teleport on hydras. Then whatever creatures attacks the hydras, the retal will hit at least three creatures: Dragons, Elves, and whoever attacked hydras.
If Fortress Teleports units beside the Elves (should not happen; Rampart really should protect the Elves - with Tactics, maybe.
Lets assume both heroes have expert tactics or no tactics. ;)

Teleporting hydras next to elves is unavoidable because dragonflies will move second which is more than enough time before one could barricade. If Rampart tries blinding hydras, then we end up in the in the same situation I mentioned above where elves become useless. Fortress is still dangerous enough to beat Rampart without Hydras because they have an extra shooter and the mighty gorgons.

If not, then maybe splitting the Elf stack)
Well, the dragonflies could still fly over and kill one stack of elves and teleport the hydras to deal with the other stack. Wyverns might even be able to join in on the first turn.

Or split dragon flies for each elf stack. Splitting elves in half makes them half as strong. If you cast airshield, they are another half weaker. Add in ranged penalty on the first turn. Combined with weakness spell and damage from dragonflies, and you get the idea. Forgetfulness and Blind are also still good alternatives.

Although, given how much time we have spent talking about it, we probably could have tested a real battle dozens of times by now. :(

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Unread postby Banedon » 08 Nov 2006, 00:57

If Fortress is the one who started the battle, then all you have to do is rearranged your troops before attacking the hero.
What if it's Rampart who started the battle? This just shows why the Heroes 5 innovation of preliminary Tactics for everyone was a great improvement.
Well, if we use your 150 grand elf example, there will also be 150 dragon flies. (Probably more, because I think flies have higher growth.) If they manage to fly over and attack, judging by experience, they might be able to kill close to half and cast weakness. If you have extra space, you can split flies in a stack of 1 to avoid retal. Then the flies would all be killed, but depending on the order of attack, their death could open up the space for the hydras to be teleported and then strike most of ramparts troops.
This happens only if the Rampart player fails to protect the Grand Elves. It is entirely possible to close off the Grand Elf stack before Fortress gets to move. You start with the Grand Elf stack in the middle (4th slot) and the Gold Dragon stack on top. Then first things first, you move the Gold Dragons down to close the Grand Elf stack. Mission accomplished.

PS: 150 Dragon Flies, I think, cannot kill 75 Grand Elves in a hit. They deal rather low damage.
All Fortress creatures should be within attacking range on their second turn.
The Gnolls wouldn't while the other creatures might soon be cursed by Mass Slow.
I meant teleport them by the elves. The order of attack would go something like: Dragons move to protect elves, Dragonflies are then up so hero casts teleport on hydras. Then whatever creatures attacks the hydras, the retal will hit at least three creatures: Dragons, Elves, and whoever attacked hydras.
Dragons move to protect the Elves. Now the Dragonflies can't reach the Elves. Are you still going to move up there? Teleporting becomes dangerous as well, because the Elves would get their shots in at full damage. If it were I, I'd seriously consider casting Teleport on the Mighty Gorgons - but that might not be the best thing, seeing I don't play Fortress that much to know them inside-out.
Fortress is still dangerous enough to beat Rampart without Hydras because they have an extra shooter and the mighty gorgons.
If you start without Chaos Hydras and I start without Grand Elves, I can claim a victory at once. The Mighty Gorgons mean little on their own; with some creature (perhaps the Centaur Captains) absorbing their retaliation and the rest of them pounding on them, they'd all be dead soon. The Mighty Gorgons cannot hope to kill all the Gold Dragons in one move, but Rampart can hope to seriously reduce their numbers (around 70% probably) in a turn.

The extra shooter is a pain, but given how Rampart would start a mass charge, probably with Mass Haste, (they've no more shooters to protect) the Lizard Warriors would soon be unable to fire. After all, Fortress cannot close the Lizard Warrior stack the way Rampart can because the Gold Dragons have a two-tile attack that would still strike the Lizard Warriors.

Or split dragon flies for each elf stack. Splitting elves in half makes them half as strong. If you cast airshield, they are another half weaker. Add in ranged penalty on the first turn. Combined with weakness spell and damage from dragonflies, and you get the idea. Forgetfulness and Blind are also still good alternatives.
You're casting Air Shield? Now that spell's quite useless in my opinion. So now you have Air Shield, Weakness, Forgetfulness / Blind. I remove them all with Mass Dispel...

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 08 Nov 2006, 02:07

Why don't we just play a match, and I'll show you just what Fortress is capable of? But I'm kind of busy with work right now, so you'd have to wait a couple of days if you're interested. ;)

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Unread postby Banedon » 08 Nov 2006, 05:13

Because I don't have Heroes 3 installed, and am unable to install it anymore :( That, and the fact that I also have lots of things to do (though oddly enough, not so many things to do that I can't come here and post :D ).

If it were possible though you might run a theoretical battle with calculations and everything (I can probably do that as well, though a neutral umpire would be best). I'll just say what I expect: Rampart to win but suffer heavy casualties in the meantime.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 13 Nov 2006, 06:00

I think I've missed something here.

How come Rampart get 15 elves for every one hydra ? If I remember correctly, you get about 7 elves a week, plus castle, that'd be something around 14 elves, while you'll also get 2 hydra weekly. If the map actually allows that many advantage for Rampart over Fortress, of course the case'll over by then. But, I usually found it to be real strange if your Fortress can't start spawning hydras before other towns start producing their lvl 7 ?

You can teleport gnoll to annoy the dendroids or unicorns. You can also teleport lizardmen so they'll be better positioned for a shot. This units actually do remarkable damage (especially if Blessed), but shooting at long distance is not their forte, so you'll have to make them closer to your target.

Usually, you'll also get your Fortress army within attack range by the 2nd turn, so you don't have to worry about enemy barricading whatever they so wish. Binding strong creatures also have its own problem I think. The stack that do the binding would get to be so badly mauled that it would not be too effective for the rest of the battle (unless you're planning on winning the battle before the 3rd begins). You'd better bind either wyverns or serpent flies before they start to be really annoying.

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Unread postby Banedon » 13 Nov 2006, 08:17

I said 15 Grand Elves to one Hydra because you will get the Elves into play long before you get Hydras - unless you manage to reach Hydras in week one, with a Castle as well. That's not easy, but yes, 15 Grand Elves to one Hydra is a bit too much. Maybe 10 Grand Elves (must note that some Rampart heroes come with Elves as well, and that if you manage to take a Rampart town you're going to reach Elves with that town much faster than you reach Hydras with a neutral town) per Hydra, perhaps a bit more. Also, there's a 7-day window when you can get Hydras before Rampart gets Dragons, but you do not gain any advantage in numbers. That's why everyone strives to build their dwellings before day 7. If you go beyond that date you get no advantage.

You can Teleport Gnolls and Lizard Warriors - but why would you want to? If you do, you can't Teleport your Mighty Gorgons and Chaos Hydras. The Mighty Gorgons and Chaos Hydras are the creatures that deal damage. If you don't get them in range they will be targetted by the Grand Elves.

If it takes two turns to arrive, the Grand Elves will be barricaded - all Rampart's creatures get to move. Binding isn't that bad. Dendroids are extremely sturdy (rather like Treants in Heroes 5) and Chaos Hydras don't deal that much damage to a single foe. Chaos Hydras inflict their damage by their mass attack. If they get binded in the middle of the battlefield by the Dendroids, they'll have wasted their potential.

PS: Can you Teleport a binded creature?

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Unread postby Pol » 13 Nov 2006, 11:02

PS: Can you Teleport a binded creature?
Sure, why not?
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Unread postby Olmer123 » 17 Nov 2006, 21:36

Just a few words from me:
1) You are getting to far imho in your theories: teleport here, teleport there - you won't have time for that :P So many other useful spells to cast - you must know that casting teleport isn't always a good choice.
2) Rampart won't have any chance for rearranging troops, providing that good players are playing. Chances for getting tactics are greater with a beastmaster - it'll be either a tie, in which case you'll waste whole turn for unit placement (fortress units will be in the middle of the map ready for assault by then) or even worse - it'll be FORTRESS player who will arrange his forces.
3) Fortress army isn't actually TAHT durable. It is the beastmaster who makes it. Especially Tazar is insane with his armorer. You actually need a HERO, not some good strategy (of course it is always welcome but...). Bringing a barbarian, or at least Mephala is imho very good idea. Then you'll find that the sheer force of Rampart may be enough (if you play good that is).
4) The fact that elves>lizardmen doesn't neccesarily mean that you can afford defending. Fortress player may attempt hit and run tactics with his wyverns (possibly even 2 stacks of them) poisoning most of your units. You will be forced to cast cure and in this case enemy may cast his spells freely (of course you can cripple wyverns with dragons, but still one cure may cost you a blow from teleported mighty moo's and few dragons lost...).

To sum things up - this discussion will be endless, cause there is always a counter - that's why homm is so damn awesome :)

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Unread postby Derek » 19 Nov 2006, 22:02

I'll set up a battle Banedon where we can test this(although I am on your side about the Rampart against Fortress debacle). If you'd like to have such a battle we'd have to have some things agreed to at the start like which heroes, level of heroes, size of army, spells known, etc...

If you're interested, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
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Unread postby Banedon » 19 Nov 2006, 23:17

I don't have Heroes 3 installed :( Unless you can test it out hypothetically...?

2) Rampart won't have any chance for rearranging troops, providing that good players are playing. Chances for getting tactics are greater with a beastmaster - it'll be either a tie, in which case you'll waste whole turn for unit placement (fortress units will be in the middle of the map ready for assault by then) or even worse - it'll be FORTRESS player who will arrange his forces.
Well we spend one turn moving one creature, which sure seems OK to me.

4) The fact that elves>lizardmen doesn't neccesarily mean that you can afford defending. Fortress player may attempt hit and run tactics with his wyverns (possibly even 2 stacks of them) poisoning most of your units. You will be forced to cast cure and in this case enemy may cast his spells freely (of course you can cripple wyverns with dragons, but still one cure may cost you a blow from teleported mighty moo's and few dragons lost...).
Fortress cannot do that; it is Rampart who can. After all, Rampart has the faster creature on the battlefield.
To sum things up - this discussion will be endless, cause there is always a counter - that's why homm is so damn awesome
Yeah I agree :D

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Unread postby Derek » 20 Nov 2006, 00:52

Banedon wrote:I don't have Heroes 3 installed :( Unless you can test it out hypothetically...?
I know.

I mean to say that we would have a hypothetical battle where the two sides are with a set amount of forces, stats, etc.(If you've played HOMMV duel mode then you sort of know what I'm talking about).

We do not necessarily have to trade turns, this would be very lengthy, but we could see general trends to find whether or not the Fortress is even capable of offering an effective counter to the Rampart.

So, if you're okay with that I'd like to know.
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Unread postby Banedon » 20 Nov 2006, 05:07

Sure, by all means.

Note: I do think Fortress is capable of offering effective resistance to Rampart; I just think Rampart will win more often than not. Rampart will suffer heavy casualties, yes, but Rampart will win.


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