Balance Between Factions In HoMM 2-4?

[Shoal]

Hi all! I'm here to ask a simple question:

Are the factions balanced in the games? I have a hardcore strategist friend who claims vehemently that HoMM2's factions are balanced, whereas HoMM3's factions are wildly unbalanced. As for HoMM4, he never played it and I never played it enough.

If any of the factions are unbalanced within the games, why are they unbalanced? Are they too strong or too weak? Do they require too few resources or too many? Etc.

Thanks for your input!

[Milla aka. the Slayer]

I have only played H4 and here's my opinion (feel free to contradict me):

The factions seems unbalanced in H4. I rarely play the death faction because it takes too long for it to become powerful and even when it does it still can't seem to match the other factions. Level one and two death creatures are too weak compared to the other factions' level one and two units. Imps, skeletons, cerberi and ghosts are too easily killed and level three's week growth and abilities don't make up for this Besides all the ressorces needed is a huge pain in the butt..

All this also applies for the heroes. The death knights are so useless and the necromancers are worthless until they reach the high levels.

Stronghold is very good and magic is never required for it to win. Creatures are cheap and not too many ressources are required.

Life is overall strong but the heroes are mostly useful against death creatures. There's no general power that can be used on everyone like Order magic has. Chaos is strong but I hate playing that faction because everything is too expensive and creature growth is poor..

In short: H4 factions are unbalanced IMO and maybe that's a good thing if you want a challenge But it might be a disadvantage too because one might stay with one faction all the time..

[Paulus1]

IMO both Heroes II and III are quite nicely balanced. You can't pick a town and claim that it always wins, no matter what.
Different towns require different strategies.

Throughout the series (at least III and IV) Castle/Haven has been the easiest town to play. Good shooter units, backed up by some strong melee units and a few/one fast flyer.

I don't think Heroes IV Death faction is as bad as Milla makes it, but it depends a lot on the map. Raising your necromancer hero to GM Necromancy (raise vampires after each battle) makes a huge difference. Necro spells aren't that bad either. While Life magic focuses on buffing your own troops, Death magic is focused on weakening the enemy, and does a very good job at that. Of course that brings trouble, when up against magic resistant enemies, but overall the faction is pretty good.

[Milla aka. the Slayer]

Death magic is focused on weakening the enemy, and does a very good job at that. Of course that brings trouble, when up against magic resistant enemies, but overall the faction is pretty good.

I don't think the job is that well done compared to the other factions' abilities but that might be because I prefer punch over making the enemies weak. Weakening doesn't work in the long run IMO. And the powers gotten compared to the level of the necromancer are few..
And as you point out in the end, the abilities crumble when up against a MR enemy. That's where some more punch would be better..

And Paulus: What's with the "ø" in your comment?

[Paulus1]

Mass weakness + Mass Curse + Vampires = your barbarians are toast

The major drawback from my point of view is the lack of shooter units and relatively weak lvl 1, but on the other hand, they come in huge numbers.

Besides almost all factions share the problem of weak lvl 1 + 2.

btw I didn't get the "ø" comment

[kitcat0]

I dont think heroes II is balanced. But since it is not as tactical as heroes III, better fractions cant use their advantage so well.

Heroes III is little bit unbalanced IMO, but all fractions can beat other fractions so it is not that bad. You just need to learn to use each fraction. OK, I admit - having Conflux gives you an advantage.

Heroes IV is very balanced IMO. If someone asked me - what is the best fraction, I couldnt tell. Maybe chaos becoes a bit weaker in later game than others.

[Paulus1]

I dont think heroes II is balanced. But since it is not as tactical as heroes III, better fractions cant use their advantage so well.

I'll be the first to admit, that I'm no great expert on Heroes II.
But from what I know, and have read elsewhere, the thing is, some factions are good for rush games while others are good in longer games. Thus strength differs over time.

[Milla aka. the Slayer]

Throughout the series (at least III and IV) Castle/Haven has been the easiest town to play. Good shooter units, backed up på some strong melee units and a few/one fast flyer.

Hvad kalder du det ?!

The major drawback from my point of view is the lack of shooter units and relatively weak lvl 1, but on the other hand, they come in huge numbers..

The lack of shooters is really a disadvantage And both level one and two are weak creatures. They're easily killed without any objections

[kitcat0]

That can be true indeed. Some towns are cheap, but relatively weak so they are good for rush games. Others have for example very expensive top level dwellings and after warlock or wizard gets their top level creatures - they become superb fractions.

[Paulus1]

Hvad kalder du det ?!

Det er i hvert fald ikke et "ø"

And about Heroes II:
Then how is it unbalanced?
It's just about using different strategies then, isn't it?

[kitcat0]

Kind of, but not totally. "Strong fractions" can stand up to weaker ones also in beginning of game, but weaker fractions cant really handle strong ones if the games drags out. They have to try and use the advantage of having top level creatures before other fractions can use theirs and it doesnt give them that much time. But depends a lot on a map also.

[DaemianLucifer]

HIII had more balance than HII,yet it lost some of the HII uniqueness.HIV on the other hand,brought some of that uniqueness back,yet it lost some of the balance.But equi fixes this quite well.

And why isnt it balance from HI-IV?

[Paulus1]

I don't think that many people still play Heroes I (or are able to run it even).

[Kristo]

Heroes II was close. Then they added the Well. That building screwed everything up. When Warlocks are eventually building 3 Black Dragons per week, a Knight's 4 Crusaders don't have a prayer. That's why Knights always have to capture something else to survive in an extra large map. If the growth ratio there were 1:2 like it should be, a Knight castle might stand on its own.

The other problem is magic. A long game comes down to two things: Black Dragons and spells. Magic in Heroes II can allow a vastly inferior force to win a battle it has no business even thinking about fighting. Go play the final scenario of the Price of Loyalty campaign for an example. Going back to Knight vs. Warlock, again the Warlocks hold all the cards. Knights simply have no way of defending against a high-powered Lightning (or most other spells for that matter) spell. Their defense is supposed to be greater numbers, but the Well killed that option.

The only saving grace is here is map size. If you stick to smaller maps, these imbalances fall away somewhat. Warlocks don't have time to get that many Dragons and spells before being engaged by Knights and Barbarians. I'd say any of the six alignments could clear the mainland of Broken Alliance on its own. Once you go above a Medium map though, all bets are off.

[Gaidal Cain]

I rarely play the death faction because it takes too long for it to become powerful and even when it does it still can't seem to match the other factions. Level one and two death creatures are too weak compared to the other factions' level one and two units. Imps, skeletons, cerberi and ghosts are too easily killed and level three's week growth and abilities don't make up for this Besides all the ressorces needed is a huge pain in the butt..

Necropolis is all about Vampires. Get their dwelling up as soon as possible, and start clearing the map. Get GM necromancy as soon as possible as well.

Until you get to Vampires, use Single-stack Imps to steal retals to let your main stack attack unthreatened. Ghosts are nice as supporters through the game with their speciality, but should be kept away from any spellcasters.

[^Dagon^]

Heroes of Might & Magic II: Way too unbalanced (which is a good thing for me, it makes the game more interesting). The Warlock has propably the best army in the game (look at the damage ranges and hp) and definitely the best 6th level creature. Even if you play with Green Dragons your opponents don't stand a chance, especially if your spellpower is high (which is always the case if you have a Warlock hero). Second comes the Wizard, the 300 hp Titans are not easy to beat. The next two ranks belong to the Sorceress and the Necromancer though I can't decide which one is best. However, that doesn't mean that Warlocks win all the time. Try to confront a Knight or Barbarian on a very small or small map and you will see what I mean. Knights and Barbarians are ideal for rushing your enemy as they can easily build the 4th dwelling.

Heroes of Might & Magic III: I think it is very well balanced to the point it becomes boring. The only character I think is weaker than the others is the Necromancer. As for the 1st and 2nd place these must be decided between Castle and Tower but, as I said before, differences are not that great (PS: Try the Castle hero with the prayer specialty and the tower hero with the armorer specialty, they are pretty strong).

As for Heroes of Might & Magic IV I think Death is the best, provided it has the time to develop its advantages. Think about it: A large number of vampires (which have attack and defence values equal to those of 4th level creatures!) is virtually unkillable. Vampiric touch gives the vampires' ability to the creature it is cast upon (the bone dragons of course which in advance have an equal to no retaliation ability because of fear). And a very good spell, the hand of death (particularly usefull vs 4th level creatures).

[Gaidal Cain]

Mod note: Thread purged of all the talk about one tiny letter in the Danish alphabet.

[Paulus1]

I disagree with you about Necro being weaker in Heroes III than the rest.
Like in Heroes IV it's all about necromancy and fighting every single battle against neutrals along the way.

While the town may be somewhat weak at lvl 2, 3 and 7 the other units make up for that. Vampires, Liches and Black knights are all excellent units, and the sheer number of skellies makes them a major factor, unlike most other lvl 1 units in later stages of the game.

@GC:
Sorry, will try to keep that stuff confined to tFL

[Le_Faucheur]

heroes 2:I think it's unbalanced,even the knight or the barbarian don't earn enough gold to hire all their creatures,moreover the warlock earns nearly enough to buy 3 black dragons per week,and of course it's enough to slaughter anybody...
necromancer and sorceress are good,the 2 best faction of the game because they are average in overall.

heroes 3,pretty well balanced:
castle:probably the strongest,I would say only the shooters are a bit weak
nature:except centaurs and dragons,all the creatures have a weakness.too slow,or too fragile...

tower:this faction is really powerful,but really expensive and too slow...

necropolis:except zombis and dragons,all the creatures are good.I would this castle is a bit weaker than tower or castle,but you have the vampires...

hades:this castle has very fast creatures.some of them are a bit weak,but two of them don't take any retaliation,and pit lords resurrect dead friendly stack.

dungeon:really powerful,a bit weaker than castle,but two of your creatures can paralyze...

stronghold:except the shooters,this castle has pretty powerful creatures,but it misses fast ones...

swamp:they are slow,but have some really great habilities,and units like basilic and gorgons are deadly in great numbers.

heroes 4 equi,the best balanced I would say,even without equi:

haven:it has very powerful shooter and also angels and crusaders.moreover its magic is really powerful.

preserve:they seem a bit weaker than the other faction,but they have a great boost thanks to the portal

tower:before equi it was the most unbalanced town only because of genies and hypnotize,but if you played without them it wasn't unbalanced.
anyway their magic is extremly powerful,but they are many way to resist.

death:vampires are unbalanced,but you can buy venom spawn instead...
I find their magic a little bit weaker than in other factions,but they also have some great spell(vampiric touch is also a little bit too powerful against IA)

chaos:they have really strong units,and powerful spells,but nothing very unbalanced to my mind(medusas are really dangerous,but way easier to kill than genies or vampires)

might:maybe the weakest faction because they don't have magic.but they have some really strong creatures,and they come in high number.to my mind,defeating a magician of order would be really hard.

[Metathron]

I don't think there are any gaping imbalances in any of the first three heroes games. HoMM IV was pretty unbalanced, but the Equilibris mod fixed that, to the great enjoyment of those of us who love the game.