Yet another discussion of the merits of H4

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Yet another discussion of the merits of H4

Postby Wolfshanze » May 11 2006, 3:46

Heroes IV shipped without an AI of any kind. The computer opponent would just sit around and do nothing while you played by yourself.

HOMM4 was only good for multiplayer (which didn't even come out with the original game, so if you bought the initial release and nothing else, you got NOTHING in return).

H4 had a brain-dead AI... totally useless. Let's hope H5 is better (how could it be worse then H4?).

Mod note: this thread was split off from the Demo thread

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Postby dragonn » May 11 2006, 11:19

Well it AI in H IV wasn't very smart, but it was competetive enough to play the game...

I didn't spend all those hours of playing the game just to travel and sightseeing around the map :D
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 11 2006, 11:41

Wolfshanze wrote:H4 had a brain-dead AI... totally useless. Let's hope H5 is better (how could it be worse then H4?).


It could kill it's own units and send all it's gold to you...
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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 13:20

Wolfshanze wrote:Heroes IV shipped without an AI of any kind. The computer opponent would just sit around and do nothing while you played by yourself.

HOMM4 was only good for multiplayer (which didn't even come out with the original game, so if you bought the initial release and nothing else, you got NOTHING in return).

H4 had a brain-dead AI... totally useless. Let's hope H5 is better (how could it be worse then H4?).


Ok if HIV is so bad,why do people still play it?HIV is an excelent game.It is being played even though the AI is as smart as a brick.How many games with absolutely no AI are being played so intensively in singleplayer(except the obvious ones that dont require AI,like tetris)?So HV can in no way be better than HIV.

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Postby Bandobras Took » May 11 2006, 13:41

DaemianLucifer wrote:Ok if HIV is so bad,why do people still play it?


Because the Equilibris Team decided to patch it into something playable and somewhat balanced. This does not hold true for that which was released by 3do. The single most common comment I've heard from people defending H4 as a great game is, "But Equilibris fixed that."

DaemianLucifer wrote:HIV is an excelent game.It is being played even though the AI is as smart as a brick.How many games with absolutely no AI are being played so intensively in singleplayer?


Hoo boy. Have you got some verification for "being played so intensively in singleplayer?" Almost everybody I know in my city put the game on the shelf a few months after release and haven't touched it since. The expansions sat on the shelf for a while before being relegated to the $10 pile. The only people I've noticed intensively playing single player are those who, as I've mentioned have downloaded Equilibris -- and if people are still playing H5 four months from now without a bunch of fans who patch the game into balance, I think H5 will have done much better than H4.

DaemianLucifer wrote:So HV can in no way be better than HIV.


There are a lot of ways that it can be. Timely release of balance patches would be on the top of my list, so that we don't have to wait a couple of years for the fans to hack into the game. Almost as high is a competent AI so that the game can be "excellent and an intensive single-player experience." I'd even accept decent writing on the Nature/Sylvan campaign.

C'mon, man, quit deifying H4. It had its good points, it had its bad points . . . but don't go so far in defending its good points (in which, in the main, I tend to agree with you) that you blind yourself to its bad points.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 14:19

Bandobras Took wrote:Because the Equilibris Team decided to patch it into something playable and somewhat balanced. This does not hold true for that which was released by 3do. The single most common comment I've heard from people defending H4 as a great game is, "But Equilibris fixed that."


Not true.Most of the people I know are playing HIV play it without equi.And those that use equi got it from me not a full year ago.

Bandobras Took wrote:Hoo boy. Have you got some verification for "being played so intensively in singleplayer?" Almost everybody I know in my city put the game on the shelf a few months after release and haven't touched it since. The expansions sat on the shelf for a while before being relegated to the $10 pile. The only people I've noticed intensively playing single player are those who, as I've mentioned have downloaded Equilibris -- and if people are still playing H5 four months from now without a bunch of fans who patch the game into balance, I think H5 will have done much better than H4.


Were I live playing online is something very fresh,so most people that play HIV play it in sp.

Bandobras Took wrote:C'mon, man, quit deifying H4. It had its good points, it had its bad points . . . but don't go so far in defending its good points (in which, in the main, I tend to agree with you) that you blind yourself to its bad points.


*sigh*!Im not saying that HIV is the best game ever(starcraft is),but its not pure crap like most people say(and all of them played the game for just a few hours).Im saying that HIV is incredible because it managed to stay alive even though it has a lot of obvious flaws.Yet Im not sure if two sequels in a row can survive like this.HV has obvious flaws of its own(old graphics,no dweling flaging,large squares,....),but it doesnt seem like its as modable as HIV,so Im not sure how long it will last.

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Postby Wolfshanze » May 11 2006, 14:21

Ok if HIV is so bad,why do people still play it?

I dunno... that's a good question for psychologists.

Really... I didn't know anyone other then sadists and masochists were even playing HOMM4 anymore. I thought the game went to dust-collector status a month after release... I loved the entire series before H4... I bought H4 as soon as I could... I WANTED to love the game. I TRIED to love the game... but after touring the beautiful countryside and easily crushing the AI time after time (whenever I decided to go after the AI that tended to do nothing), I realized the computer opponent was completely brain-dead.

3DO/New World abandoned this game and never fixed it. All you did was run around and look at the pretty scenery and crushed the AI whenever you felt like fighting (you usually have to bring the battle to the AI, as it just sits on its thumbs all day). Sorry... but if anyone is still playing this game, they either enjoy playing a game with NO CHALLENGE, looking at pretty scenery, are sadists and masochists for extreme pain... or... I suppose they are playing a game that had to be fixed by a third-party... and even then, I'd bet you more people are still playing HOMM3 over HOMM4.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 15:31

Wolfshanze wrote:I dunno... that's a good question for psychologists.


Next time play the game for more than an hour before you make a statement about it.

Wolfshanze wrote:Really... I didn't know anyone other then sadists and masochists were even playing HOMM4 anymore. I thought the game went to dust-collector status a month after release... I loved the entire series before H4... I bought H4 as soon as I could... I WANTED to love the game. I TRIED to love the game... but after touring the beautiful countryside and easily crushing the AI time after time (whenever I decided to go after the AI that tended to do nothing), I realized the computer opponent was completely brain-dead.


You know,heroes series isnt just pure hack and slash.Theres also a very important part of game known as story.

Wolfshanze wrote:3DO/New World abandoned this game and never fixed it. All you did was run around and look at the pretty scenery and crushed the AI whenever you felt like fighting (you usually have to bring the battle to the AI, as it just sits on its thumbs all day). Sorry... but if anyone is still playing this game, they either enjoy playing a game with NO CHALLENGE, looking at pretty scenery, are sadists and masochists for extreme pain... or... I suppose they are playing a game that had to be fixed by a third-party... and even then, I'd bet you more people are still playing HOMM3 over HOMM4.


No chalenge?Try around the calendar,wind of thorns,saga of depileres,trapped inside the beast,....I think youll find them more chalenging than some of HIII maps/campaigns.

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Postby Wolfshanze » May 11 2006, 15:44

Next time play the game for more than an hour before you make a statement about it.

Cute, but I played the game for a LOOOOOOT longer then an hour to come to my conclusion... I played the heck out of the game, and I WANTED TO LIKE IT. Just because me (and the VAST MAJORITY of Heroes fans) came to a differant conclusion then you about the game, don't think for a moment we don't know what we're talking about.

As for challenge, maybe you just consider something hard what everyone else considers easy. Don't know... to each his own, but I played the whole game and found it way too easy.

I played the ENTIRE GAME, all the campaigns... I found nothing to make me want to keep playing beyond that, and what I did play I didn't find all that enjoyable.

Sorry pal, but you're in the minority here... I know you H4-lovers are all defensive and sensitive about your game, but frankly, H4 stinks, and most HOMM fans agree on this. You're in the minority.

Just because some people like it, doesn't make it a great game. Heck, flies really like a big steamy pile of sh!t, but that doesn't make it smell any better. Sorry, but HOMM4 simply stinks.

Remember... I wanted to like it... I tried to like it... frankly... if it sucks, it sucks.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 16:01

Wolfshanze wrote:Cute, but I played the game for a LOOOOOOT longer then an hour to come to my conclusion... I played the heck out of the game, and I WANTED TO LIKE IT. Just because me (and the VAST MAJORITY of Heroes fans) came to a differant conclusion then you about the game, don't think for a moment we don't know what we're talking about.


Same goes the other way round.Just because I like story more than fansy graphics or fun and realistic battles more than small fast slaughter fests doesnt make a masochist or a mental patent.

Wolfshanze wrote:As for challenge, maybe you just consider something hard what everyone else considers easy. Don't know... to each his own, but I played the whole game and found it way too easy.


True,the original game is easy.And so are the maps that come with the original.Its the fan made maps that spice things up.

Wolfshanze wrote:I played the ENTIRE GAME, all the campaigns... I found nothing to make me want to keep playing beyond that, and what I did play I didn't find all that enjoyable.


Like I said above,its the fan made maps that make the game trully shine.But the campaigns arent bad either.They have an interesting flavour(a good necromancer,for example).

Wolfshanze wrote:Sorry pal, but you're in the minority here... I know you H4-lovers are all defensive and sensitive about your game, but frankly, H4 stinks, and most HOMM fans agree on this. You're in the minority.


Now what did you say before?Just because my oppinion differs doesnt make it untrue,right?

Wolfshanze wrote:Just because some people like it, doesn't make it a great game. Heck, flies really like a big steamy pile of sh!t, but that doesn't make it smell any better. Sorry, but HOMM4 simply stinks.


And just because some people dont like it doesnt make it crap either.Remember there are people that hate football,yet it doesnt make it any less popular.

Wolfshanze wrote:Remember... I wanted to like it... I tried to like it... frankly... if it sucks, it sucks.


Why?Because it has no AI?You tried,you say.How?Did you even bother to comprehend the story of the campaigns?Did you even bother to see the true effects of FoW?Or separate creature movement?I seriously doubt that.

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Postby Wolfshanze » May 11 2006, 16:12

Why?Because it has no AI?You tried,you say.How?Did you even bother to comprehend the story of the campaigns?

Okay... I get it... you really love the story... fine for you... back up the story all you want... maybe it's like reading Tolkien... but frankly... when I buy a game... I want to PLAY IT... games should be fun to PLAY. If I wanted a story with really crummy gameplay, I'd go buy a book from Waldens Book Store... there are some pretty good stories in there with equally crummy game play.

It could be the greatest story ever told... but HOMM4 had no gameplay at all, and frankly, having no gameplay in a game, story doesn't cover the missing holes. What you describe is like buying a lambrogini with no engine... sure, it's pretty to look at, but it doesn't do anything.

A perfect description of HOMM4.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 16:16

Wolfshanze wrote:Okay... I get it... you really love the story... fine for you... back up the story all you want... maybe it's like reading Tolkien... but frankly... when I buy a game... I want to PLAY IT... games should be fun to PLAY. If I wanted a story with really crummy gameplay, I'd go buy a book from Waldens Book Store... there are some pretty good stories in there with equally crummy game play.

It could be the greatest story ever told... but HOMM4 had no gameplay at all, and frankly, having no gameplay in a game, story doesn't cover the missing holes. What you describe is like buying a lambrogini with no engine... sure, it's pretty to look at, but it doesn't do anything.

A perfect description of HOMM4.


No gameplay?Please!Except for the weird battlefield camera I can find nothing wrong with gameplay.Back up your arguments next time.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » May 11 2006, 16:33

Repost of post that snuck in during the move:
Campaigner wrote:I agree with Wolfhanze. HIV blows. But it wasn't only the A.I that killed it for me. It was the heroes in combat, heroless creatures, broken spellsystem and ugly graphics.


Wolfhanze wrote:
Back up your arguments next time.


I could say the same for you... you're obviously a HOMM4 fanboy who can't possibly fathom why this game is ridiculed world-wide.

There's a reason why the game has a HORRIBLE reputation, and a reason why HOMM5 is a rehash of HOMM3 and not HOMM4. Ubisoft listened to the fans, and hands-down, HOMM4, your love-child, is hated by a lot more people then it is liked by.

Live in denial all you want... lots of people played the game and lots of people HATE HOMM4... we all know you love it... but you can't convince the world the steamy pile of sh!t that is HOMM4 is actually a good game... it's not.

I explained my reasons, you chose to ignore them being a blind fan-boy. Fine. You're going to have to go through life realizing people don't like your game, and you're not going to convince them otherwise.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 16:41

Im not a HIV fanboy.I know it has its weakneses.One is crappy AI.Other is poor balance.Other is bad graphics and poor camera.All in all,the game was shipped unfinished.But there is one thing small plus in here.It came with a fantastic editor.So fans could finish what developers couldnt.Not chalenging enough?Well add some AI boosters.And then came equilibris to counter the balance problem.So what problems do we have left?Graphics and camera are bad.Well newsflash:Its a strategy game,so we dont need fansy graphics.Hell,heroes series is so good,that Id play them even with just plain text!(and Im not talking just HIV here).

So you dont like having heroless armies?Well,that doesnt make that feature a bad thing.Like I said,there are people that hate football,but that doesnt make it a bad sport.Its a metter of preference.

Im not saying that HV should be based on HIV.Far from it.HIII is an excelent foundation.But why leave some of the so obvious upgrades HIV brought?Even you cannot say that flaging windmills and being able to exit the battle without alt+F4 is a bad thing.

To summarize:

Hey bill,why do you cary that glowing bar in that lead case?
Because that bar is radioactive uranium.
So what?Its just a glowing bar.
That glowing bar emmits particles that can kill you.
But its just a glowing bar!
*sigh*!


@Gaidal Cain

Well,my post snuk up as well.Its good that I am such a perfectionist so I decided to move it myself :devil:

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Postby pepak » May 11 2006, 16:57

I thought I would join in, but after reading the thread, I am not going to. I just don't feel like arguing with Mr. "Just because you like it doesn't make it a good game; lots of people hate it so it is obviously crap". If, by some miracle, this thread turns into a debate about facts rather than wild accusations between fanboys and nonplayers, let me know so I can return...

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Postby Wolfshanze » May 11 2006, 17:01

pepak wrote:I thought I would join in, but after reading the thread, I am not going to. I just don't feel like arguing with Mr. "Just because you like it doesn't make it a good game; lots of people hate it so it is obviously crap". If, by some miracle, this thread turns into a debate about facts rather than wild accusations between fanboys and nonplayers, let me know so I can return...

Pepak... you make the same mistake the fanboy made. I HAVE PLAYED THE GAME... I'm not a non-player... I played the heck out of the game and came to the same conclusion plenty of folks have. Yes, I'm one of many who don't like the game, but I didn't come to my conclusion the game sucks because other people think the same... I came to that conclusion BECAUSE I PLAYED THE HECK OUT OF THE GAME THEN DECIDED IT SUCKED.

I don't like it because others don't like it... I don't like it because I played it and decided it sucked. Coincidentally, LOTS of people agree with me.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 17:13

Wolfshanze wrote:Pepak... you make the same mistake the fanboy made. I HAVE PLAYED THE GAME... I'm not a non-player... I played the heck out of the game and came to the same conclusion plenty of folks have. Yes, I'm one of many who don't like the game, but I didn't come to my conclusion the game sucks because other people think the same... I came to that conclusion BECAUSE I PLAYED THE HECK OUT OF THE GAME THEN DECIDED IT SUCKED.

I don't like it because others don't like it... I don't like it because I played it and decided it sucked. Coincidentally, LOTS of people agree with me.


I wonder how many times have I watched the sky.Oh it was a lot,for sure.Does that make me a meteorologist?Or an astronomer?

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Postby pepak » May 11 2006, 17:38

Wolfshanze wrote:Pepak... you make the same mistake the fanboy made. I HAVE PLAYED THE GAME... I'm not a non-player...

The point obviously escaped you. Just as you have your reasons for condemning H4, DaemianLucifer has his reasons for liking the game. If you dismiss his opinion as a raving nonsense by a foaming H4 maniac, you should be prepared to take accusations that you don't know the game and can't be considered a relevant source for discussion about it. If your main (well, the only) argument is name-calling of your opposition, you should not be surprised to receive the same in return.

Anyway, I don't expect this thread to contain valid argumentation. For some reason the Heroes fans split between those who hate H4 with religious fervor and those who support it with the same zeal

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Postby pepak » May 11 2006, 17:58

Or should I attempt to start a reasonable discussion? Maybe I should, it might help. My view about the main pros and cons of H4:

- My most serious grudge against H4 is that in the state it was released it was essentially a fraud against those who bought it. The game was not even in it's alpha version, judging by the glaring bugs it contained (and which MUST have been known to the programmers as well as the producers). Sure, 3DO was in a difficult situation, but that's not an excuse for cheating its customers.

- While I have complained loudly about the AI, with retrospect it is pretty obvious that AI was NEVER a strength of Heroes series. In fact, the same most glaring mistakes are present in pretty much every Heroes game, though in some are more visible than in the others (my theory is that H4 suffers most because it gives far more strategic and tactical oportunities than the older games in the series - slow walkers trying (uselessly) to catch up with a fast non-retaliator are quite obvious in H4, but H3 were susceptible to the same thing; the only difference is that with the smaller battlefield of H3 it is far less likely to get into such a situation).

- Balance is indeed a problem with H4, though IMO not in the area it is most complained about - I don't think the creatures or factions are imbalanced. The main problem is in heroes versus creatures area, with the heroes making creatures pretty much useless. Personally I like this approach (after all, the game is called HEROES of Might & Magic, not MONSTERS of Might & Magic), but I will concede many may (quite rightfully) disagree.

- Many people complain that Heroes 4 present no challenge. To a certain degree it is true, especially for the expansions. The fact is that the scenarios and campaigns included with the game are of very poor quality as far as actual gameplay is concerned (on the other hand I find the storylines of the six original campaigns excellent, with Gauldoth's story possibly the best I have seen in my 20 years of playing strategy games - or at least tied with the Broodwar expansion for Starcraft). It could be argued, though, that the same lack of challenge is true for most older Heroes as well. The best gameplay was always in the fan-made maps and I personally think that the awesome possibilities of scripting makes for the best maps in Heroes universe (A Wind of Thorns, Trapped Inside the Beast, Draconic, The Last Chance, My Brother's Keeper and many, many others).

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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 11 2006, 18:23

I agree with pepak at the fullest.Although I think that the imbalance between heroes and creatures couldve been avoided either by giving expirience to creatures,or by making heroes weak,but asignable to stacks.
Last edited by DaemianLucifer on May 11 2006, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.


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