Collaborative H4 campaign

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Duzeom_
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 14 2016, 21:58

@Karmakeld and rest

I will clarify how I see creating story to our campaign which I put in my first post but probably not clear enough:

1. One of us decides to start. Then he thinks out his part of story like the Taro did. He doesn't do any mapmaking now.
2. The second mapmaker improvise his story starting AFTER the first map. Again he must think such story that is Story Milestone, I mean can be easily represented by a map (has a clear start and clear ending). So he doesn't add new story to previous map - he just thinks out his story as everybody else.
3. The process repeats until all mapmakers think out their stories.
4. Every mapmaker creates his own map based on his own story.

@Patfx I very much like the idea that heroes has our names :D

@Taro - thats the perfect example of how I see Story Milestone. Moreover it is quite interesting idea. We have a character with some traits and motivation which can be easily improvised to create more. I love it.

In case of question just ask.

PS: don't put a lot effort in story telling. I know it is for some crucial to do so, but please I don't want to spend next year in creating scripts and texts, and I think you don't want to also. To me the story can be about a Holy Granade of Mayhem or about Sponge of the Purity. Really it doesn't matter, because I think more then a half of players doesn't read the texts - they want to play game and we should focus on that. There weren't many campaign were the main emphasis was on just good old gameplay.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Jan 15 2016, 2:11

Duzeom_ wrote:1. In every team there are rules describing how to work together. These rules I written in first post of this subject. Of course You don't have to agree with them but in the sake of good teamwork we should stick with some rules, don't you think? Without them there will be chaos. I written there that it would be nice that every map maker think out his story. It is wise and just solution in my opinion. If other mapmakers want your story to be "incorporated" then OK, but I always wanted to create my own story in my own map. Then please tell me what I am imposing? I am just defending my opinion and part in this project.


I followed your advice. Go back and read my post again, because it is clear you did not read all of it. I specifically asked for ideas on what I had laid out. If you wanted to create a different milestone than one of those that I listed, you could have done that. Sadly, you did not. You decided to just dismiss the discussion Karmakeld and I were having and see if someone else would come up with something that fit what you wanted. Dismissing / ignoring the ideas of those you are supposed to be collaborating with, is, well, not collaborative.

If you can't see that you are the one imposing on others, then I have nothing else to say to you on that point.

Duzeom_ wrote:2. I don't like story of Christian because of the issues written before not because it is bad. I read your story but I don't recognize any heroes and places You have written there so to me it is very complicated. I never said it is bad story - I said that for me is too much. That was my opinion and again where I am imposing anything? I asked who wants to start creating story - you could say that you want to start and start with the Christian story and other mapmaker would develop your idea. But if he would develop in a bad way (for example me who don't know the lore) You would say that it is rubbish because it doesn't fit the lore. That's why I written that FOR ME it is bad idea to stick with lore.


Karmakeld already responded to this point several times. The lore is minimal. And no, I would never call anyone's ideas rubbish. That's incredibly rude and some people will never share their ideas again if they are treated in that way. Imagine how many good ideas are lost because of that?

Duzeom_ wrote:3. You wanted discussion there you have it - I stated my opinion.


No, you simply dismissed the discussion that was taking place and asked for a new one. There's a huge difference.

Duzeom_ wrote:4. I am doing map making for a long time and I just think that I know how to organize such a project. And still I wanted it to be quick - 1 month and we have a campaign. We can start from Christian, but I will not learn the lore not because it takes 10 minutes, because it is NOT FUN for me to watching steps when I create a map.


No, you know how to organize it for yourself, not anyone else. Also, that isn't fun for you? Well what makes you think that only what you want is fun for anyone else? I'll stress this word again that we have been using: collaborative.

Duzeom_ wrote:6. Yes I think that I am good mapmaker (but there are better one) and I will not create map based on someone's story, simply because I don't have to and I don't like to do it. That's why I said You can't afford to hire me because there is no sum of money which would convince me to do it.


As stated before, everything I wrote was up for debate / change, so this is irrelevant. No one was asking you to take what I wrote and deal with it.

An idea similar to what PatFX put forward would probably be the best route for what you're looking for. Everyone could create their own story, and each story could take place away from the others, but in the same world. Chapters, similar to what Karmakeld is doing with his campaign.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Dr.Marsupio » Jan 15 2016, 4:36

if this project is to survive, we need more rules.
Question: Is this a democratic project? We're 5 people in 4 'teams', but as Dr. Marsupio and I are 1 team, do we each have a vote or do we count as one?


Nha, I don't want any kind of vote, I'm not going to be part of the creative process of the story so you should speak for both of us in this regard, as it will influence your workfield.
The cable company was patrolling the streets today severing all the illegal cables that people had set up to steal signal from their neighbors, and they cut down my internet connection by mistake, so the map had a lot of progress today :oex:
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 15 2016, 8:38

@iLive
"No, you simply dismissed the discussion that was taking place and asked for a new one. There's a huge difference."

I've never dismissed the discussion. I stated my opinion that the story will be cumbersome to invent, because of the lore. But we can quarrel about this for a time of eternity. As I said, it can be Christian story if rest of us wants it.

"No, you know how to organize it for yourself, not anyone else. Also, that isn't fun for you? Well what makes you think that only what you want is fun for anyone else? I'll stress this word again that we have been using: collaborative."

I know how to create it in a fast and good manner. I brought this idea of collaborative campaign to the public, so I had to establish some basic rules on which we could build our project. In every group there is a leader - and since I created this topic I feel like a leader - if you want to be a leader and think new rules of our project, let's be it.

I said that I will not make a map based on someone's story. So I created rules which gives power of creating story to the mapmakers. As I said I think it is good and just. If mapmakers or mapmaker want to create story for all participants - ok, but I think it is bad idea. Again you will say "omg you are so egoistic because you do things only you like." But I could say only - Do you really think I would create topic and make rules which I will not agree on? That's some paradox there. I stated my opinion how we should work in our project, if you have other ideas - good. But changing the rules every time will create chaos. My only concerned when I was critical was this - that you improvised a 4 maps ahead. I know it was only idea, and I wrote "it will be nice if everyone could think out his story". So what's the fuss about?!

There next paradox in what you say: You criticize me because my rules are fun for me only. But your rules aren't fun for you only? They are also fun for you and maybe some other people as well as my rules are fun to me and maybe other people. No one said before my rules are rubbish and they won't work with me in this project, so I assume that they accepted them as good ones. You have other idea - OK, but forcing your ideas isn't exactly the same thing for which you are criticize me?

So my last question to you iLive is "What the hell do you want to accomplish"? Because if it is only making me feel bad because I said that your idea is bad then you will not manage to do that.

And I will repeat the same over and over again: We can start from Christian, but please give me the oppurtunity to think out the story of MY map for myself. Is it too much I ask?
Last edited by Anonymous on Jan 15 2016, 12:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 15 2016, 11:46

God darnit it hate when it loses all text due to long time spend writing a post.. anyway I'll try to recreate some of my post..

Personally I vote for the Christian story. It had the StoryMilestones. We know where it starts, and we know where it ends. The inbetweens had been suggested along with possible, win conditions, but can easily be changed.

PatFx's suggestion was quite similar, as he had start, inbetween and an ending. But wasn't it decided that only 1 main hero should be present? In which case this idea would be declined.

Taro's suggestion was
we have a young lord called Leoward Pegason. He's not good or evil, something between and his actions are about to give him glory. He's not dangerous to innocent but on the other hand he doesn't care too much about lives of his people. Leoward is lazy and enjoy things like - tournaments, feasts etc. He decides to find Lion Shield of Courage because it will give him fame and glory among other lords. But it's guarded by a sect of druids.


Now I'm uncertain about the StoryMilestones here: Does he fight the druids after locating the shield in the first map? And then I'm to decide where he goes in map 2? Or...?

Q1: Can we please decide who makes which map. This would make it somewhat easier, regarding story development.

I like to work with a 'storyboarded' story, in this case it seems like that isn't Duzeom's preference, so how do we solve this?
Q2: Can we decide to do a vote or something to get some progress regarding which story to continue and wheter or now we all agree on a Start and Finish? (This could atleast give us some direction with each map).
I don't mind working within some 'settings', but to some degree I feel like each should be allowed to decide for himself if he wants help with ideas or use his own. (e.g if Taro wants to incorporate one of iLiVe's.. ideas, then allow him to).

Q3: I understand that we're supposed to share our StoryMilestones here (where our map starts and finish) but could we include win conditions aswell, so we don't end up with 4 'capture all towns' conditions.

Duzeom you have a history of making Campaigns with focus on story, don't you fear a weak story campaign like this might affect interest in your other campaigns? I do. I'm certain you're right about alot of players don't play to read the story, but what about the few that does. Small amounts of text and a light story, will be easy to read through. Also there's a difference between having to read the story to understand the campaign/win conditions and not. I would though suggest that we atleast agree that Win conditions should be somewhat story related and atleast make some sense, so we don't end up with something like KarmaKeld, the death knight, decided to see if he could raise an army of 100 Dark Champions within 3 months. Just to show the other death knights that he could. In the next map, he then decided to claim the all the towns, because the necromancers had control of them, and he never really liked necromancers.
Let us atleast agree that win conditions has a link to our Character's motivation and that his/her actions are carried out for reason and not because we need a particular win condition.
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 15 2016, 12:51

Enough with the dirt throwing okay? You'll end up with nothing more than a small island if this goes on.

Duzeom, you have stated that you are fine with Chritian alright; "And I will repeat the same over and over again: We can start from Christian, but please give me the oppurtunity to think out the story of MY map for myself. Is it too much I ask?"

iLiVe.. just stated "As stated before, everything I wrote was up for debate / change, so this is irrelevant. No one was asking you to take what I wrote and deal with it"

So basically you have both agreed to each others terms, so wtf edit a post only to let out more anger? One more post of this arguing and I'm out of this project.
Basically it's down to something as simple as the feeling of be forced to something against your will, when in fact that doesn't seem to be the intention from either side. Am I right!?

The way I read it, the first and only suggestion was shot down by Duzeom, coz you didn't like being limited by lore. Duzeom then later agreed to work from this idea, but I do understand why iLiVe felt it was 'instantly killed', but let's put that aside for now.

Now I could give a long lecture in leadership and management, but I'm not. But the bottom-line is, A leader takes charge, and can involve his employes in certain matters, but if you envolve them in decision making once, expect them to be upset if you exclude them the next time. And placing some out of the decisions can creates bad mood. Hence you either make it very clear when a leaders decision is law or you make majority decide by voting.
I'm silent in seven languages - and I got all my familys fear.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 15 2016, 18:48

Karmakeld wrote:
"Duzeom you have a history of making Campaigns with focus on story, don't you fear a weak story campaign like this might affect interest in your other campaigns? I do. I'm certain you're right about alot of players don't play to read the story, but what about the few that does. Small amounts of text and a light story, will be easy to read through. Also there's a difference between having to read the story to understand the campaign/win conditions and not. I would though suggest that we atleast agree that Win conditions should be somewhat story related and atleast make some sense, so we don't end up with something like KarmaKeld, the death knight, decided to see if he could raise an army of 100 Dark Champions within 3 months. Just to show the other death knights that he could. In the next map, he then decided to claim the all the towns, because the necromancers had control of them, and he never really liked necromancers.
Let us atleast agree that win conditions has a link to our Character's motivation and that his/her actions are carried out for reason and not because we need a particular win condition."


Yeah I definataly agree with you. We must have a hero which have a motivation to his action in map. The story should be simple but as you said - not too simple. A one or two long messages will be enough but one sentence is too little.

I don't know if someone wants to start or now. But really it is a simple task to think out a story. Just think to these questions:
1. Who is our main hero
2. What is his motivation
3. Where the story starts.

So maybe I will start but this is only for example purposes:

Layonis Belgard a famous pirate of the Middlesea raids a Sattram Kingdom' ship. He know it is a big deal, because the Kingdom has best and the biggest ships on Middlesea. But Layonis isn't famous for no reason. He always raids the biggest ships with a lot of treasures. But now he made a mistake - the Sattram's Ship was going to Betelia for dyplomatic reasons, so on the ship there are lots of guards. Nevertheless he defeat the ships guards but he loses all his pirates. To his surprise on the ship there were no gold or treasure but a tied up man. The mysterious man wants to hire Lyonis to avenge his fate. He says he is the Sattram prince Catan Feros who secretly was flirting with Betelia's princess Victoria. Betelia and Sattram were for ages in the war and many people died in the sea during the battles. The King of Sattram tied up his son and send him to death on the sea. Lyonis is attarcted by Catan's story and decides to help him defeat the Sattram and marry Victoria.

Win condition: Defeat Sattram and Betelia Kingdoms.
Lose condition: Lose Layonis Belgard or Catan Feros.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Jan 16 2016, 1:12

Hmm, I wonder if the problem is a language barrier? It seems like you continually focus on one or two words that I write, and ignore all the rest.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that so Karmakeld will remain with the project. This is my final post here. Good luck (no sarcasm intended).

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 24 2016, 16:18

So this is going nowhere fast.. 8|
We went from good activity to absolutely none (for more than a week now).
I give credits to Duzeom for actually coming up with a reasonable way to do a collaborative campaign, (you found solutions to many of the obstacles I foresaw) but I feel like it has slowly withered when it came to setting up the story line and how it should be done..
Too bad..
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 24 2016, 17:46

I wrote some example story in post before, but no one even commented.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 25 2016, 9:12

Kind of my point.
Not a single one of us has continued either of any of the stories the others has proposed along the way. And the lack of posts since your last post, was the reason I wrote that I feel it has withered. Perhaps it will blossom in the spring, but it's kinda dead for the moment being.
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Taro » Jan 25 2016, 14:21

Conclusion? There are too many differences between us to create one campaign. And democracy sucks :D

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 25 2016, 20:38

I can continue Taro's story if you give me time :)

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Steven Aus » Jan 26 2016, 3:45

Democracy sucks, but it's better than out-and-out dictatorship.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 26 2016, 9:37

Conclusion? There are too many differences between us to create one campaign. And democracy sucks :D


Spot on Taro..
I guess there are advantages and disadvantages with all form of rule, but no doubt this is where this project hit it's biggest obstacle.
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Taro » Jan 27 2016, 14:33

Someone said: there are good and evil dictatorships. Democrasy is always stupid. Heroes games were not made with democratic way and now we know why :D

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 27 2016, 17:39

I don't think it is democracy fault. I think that everyone is a little bit of tired of thinking and disputing. I thought that people will have it's own ideas about the story, as I do, but it turns out that it isn't that way. Maybe we should back to Christian story ...

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Steven Aus » Feb 1 2016, 11:56

I would say there are far less good dictatorships than evil ones, 1 in 20 if you're lucky.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Feb 26 2016, 21:07

Sadly this project faced a dead end by the time the subject came to story, but a new collaborative project seems to have seen the light of day.
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/7/16004 This time, we won't have to argue about the story, as it is already written :).
If this has any interest, please write in the tread linked above.
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