Collaborative H4 campaign

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Karmakeld
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 3 2016, 12:48

Maciek wrote:
Well, you could agree on some kind of army caps, such as max (approximately) X level Y creatures or max (approximately) Z peons worth of army carried from map A to map B.

Perhaps you could also have Kings Bounty styled army limits within maps to make the army caps act similar to the usual level caps, so that the limit to how much army you can have in map A and how much army you can carry to map B are similar.
Either that or some kind of time limits or increasing expected final army strength by an order of magnitude between maps. (So that players don't bother waiting endlessly for creatures to grow in map A, because they'll soon grow much faster in map B)

A feature taken from h3 (that seems easy to implement with scripts) - growth boosts in towns depending on number of captured dwells could help build large armies quicker.


Again nice ideas, and the last should be easy to script, but I'm uncertain if the others would be 'too heavy' for a light scripted campaign..

Wimfrits wrote:
I agree. Without at least some resource and army boosts the AI is too much of a walkover. Especially on higher levels, as like you said AI is unable to cope with stronger neutrals. Wasn't there a thread on creation of a generic AI hero boosting script? That would be perfect for a shared endeavour like this. Or was that Equi only ;|


I believe it was a Equilibris tread on how to improve AI behavour/help the AI by adding some general scripts. But to some degree, some of the scripts weren't hard to do, and could help improve AI behavour and increase difficulty, but some of them we have already mentioned. Amongst the more complicated ones was a way to improve artifact choice, but that was heavy scripting.

Dr. Marsupio wrote:
It's funny, I always hinder the player with annoying taxes / revolts / a crippled economy to accomplish the sense of challenge instead of buffing the AI player with extra stuff, I find overcoming these negative conditions to be more rewarding that beating the influence of some invisible hand, but that's only my opinion, other people might find it frustrating. Of course the exception to this rule is the "final battle" when the heroes have to have a script to make them stronger on an x time basis to prevent the player from amassing a huge army.[/quote

I find that this is a useful way to differ between difficulties, as novice should get less taxes than champion players, but for several of the suggestions to work, we will need 5 different settings. I don't think it's heavy scripting, but simply unavoidalbe if a proper balance should be reached.

Wimfrits wrote:
How about scripted army growth of whatever the hero is carrying? Some on-the-road breeding program. That could be a strong incentive for the player to keep the army with the hero at all times

Again interesting idea. Basically we only need to do the script twice, first hero, and then the carry over hero can be copied between maps. The same goes with town scripts etc. I would suggest that if general resource, creature etc boosts are added, we all use the same scripts/settings (meaning basically just one has to do the inital one- this will also speed it up).



Awsome. 1 or 2 level +/- isn't that important for me, but I still suggest that perhaps we change it a bit so it isn't a clean 5 levels pr. map for 2, 3 and 4? I'm still in favor for a slight decrease in level cap by each map.

But to make things clear, can it be agreed upon that 5 difficulty settings IS required?

We also need to agree upon which of the suggested AI/balance improving scripts we should use.

I suggest:
- Attack/Defense boost (like +10/10, +20/20, +30/30- from adv. -> champion).
- A weekly resource boost (again increased with difficulty).
- "Growth boosts in towns depending on number of captured dwells could help build large armies quicker."
- "Extra dwellings, double towns, stuff like that"
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 3 2016, 18:22

My propositions of available AI boost are:
1. weekly resource boost (static for all difficulties).
20000 gold
20 ore and wood
10 of the rest
PER WEEK.
2. Defence/attack/speed boost (dynamic/depending on difficulty)
3. Smaller armies around AI towns.
4. See all map script for AI (OPTIONAL)
5. Free treasure and artifacts around the AI town (OPTIONAL).
6. Starting army boost (dynamic & OPTIONAL).

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Taro » Jan 3 2016, 19:08

As for me:
1) Single resources boost. If we give the AI so many resources every week there is no point for it to take the mines.
2) Speed boost on advanced, speed and defense on expert, speed, defense and attack on champion. For starting heroes only. This would be "hard to see solution" but still somehow important.
3) See all map script for AI (OPTIONAL).
4) Smaller armies around AI towns.
5) Starting army boost (dynamic & OPTIONAL).
6) Extra dwellings, double towns, stuff like that.

I noticed AI has much less loses when it leads shooting units. I think we should give it about 2-3 kinds of shooting units, so it will not destroy itself when fighting neutrals.

And what about level caps? Any other ideas to discuss?

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 3 2016, 19:18

Taro wrote:As for me:
1) Single resources boost. If we give the AI so many resources every week there is no point for it to take the mines.

I don't think that AI is so clever that it doesn't flag mines if it has a lot of resources. But maybe I am wrong.

Taro wrote:2) Speed boost on advanced, speed and defense on expert, speed, defense and attack on champion. For starting heroes only. This would be "hard to see solution" but still somehow important.
3) See all map script for AI (OPTIONAL).
4) Smaller armies around AI towns.
5) Starting army boost (dynamic & OPTIONAL).
6) Extra dwellings, double towns, stuff like that.


Fine by me.

Taro wrote:I noticed AI has much less loses when it leads shooting units. I think we should give it about 2-3 kinds of shooting units, so it will not destroy itself when fighting neutrals.

And what about level caps? Any other ideas to discuss?


You can give more shooting units when boosting army.

A pro po level caps - I don't know why you are discussing it yet, because IT DEPENDS ON MAP SIZES. And map sized depends more or less on the story. So we will decide later.

We can discuss forever, but if we don't have volunteers for our project it is all pointless.

So the main question is: Who want to participate in? As we stated before we have 5 empty chairs (4 when you add me).

So please anybody who is interested please write here. (time is crucial :D)

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Dr.Marsupio » Jan 4 2016, 0:24

Of course everything is still subject to chance, my job is only to make it look pretty :P
Once im done I'll leave the rest to karmakeld capable hands. :hail:

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 4 2016, 10:17

Are You doing map right now without story?

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 4 2016, 17:07

I guess we just have to make the story fit Dr. Marsupio's map ;).
Also it looks like the good doctor just signed me up :drama:
1) 20K a week is a massive boost. Keep in mind player can gain access to those 50-100K gold if AI decide to surrender. Solutions to this would cause a lot of scripting, so favor Taro's suggestion or a daily 1K gold. Of course a limit to continuous gold supply could be made, but again more scripts.
2) we can easily add stat and level boosts to new AI heroes via placed events as well, if we want to.
3-6) I agree on those.

But I do feel it does make sense to set some pre-determined goal for what we think each map cap should end up like. A difference between 8 and 12 might just be 4, but with 4-5 maps we suddenly end up with 16-20 add. levels. Besides, this had to be somewhat agreed upon to ensure easier/faster testing and to prevent the god like heroes.
If only 4 persons volunteer, I don't see a definite need to wait for a fifth, I'd rather we begin focusing on the story and decide if four or five maps are needed by then.
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 4 2016, 17:28

Karmakeld wrote:I guess we just have to make the story fit Dr. Marsupio's map ;).

If only 4 persons volunteer, I don't see a definite need to wait for a fifth, I'd rather we begin focusing on the story and decide if four or five maps are needed by then.


Sorry but this is just absurd - I have some spare not public maps so maybe You think out story to them? Blah. To me it is just infinite laziness. :wall: It is called COLLABORATIVE, not "SEND ME YOUR MAPS AND I WILL MAGICALLY FIT THEM IN ONE STORY". Sorry, but nope. If it will look like - I'm out of here. I was scepticall all along before Marsupio said that someone will do scripting to it, because it will never end. All assumptions to this campaign, low number of scripts in particular, are for this reason - campaign/maps tend to be put on shelf.

Yeah 4 people are good, but let these people decide before and let them know what rules of this projects are. It will be just hell if two of mapmakers will do their map and two don't. Then what? Work for nothing. Or all in or all out. That's the way I see it.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Dr.Marsupio » Jan 4 2016, 19:39

Duzeom_ wrote:Sorry but this is just absurd - I have some spare not public maps so maybe You think out story to them? Blah. To me it is just infinite laziness. :wall: It is called COLLABORATIVE, not "SEND ME YOUR MAPS AND I WILL MAGICALLY FIT THEM IN ONE STORY". Sorry, but nope. If it will look like - I'm out of here. I was scepticall all along before Marsupio said that someone will do scripting to it, because it will never end. All assumptions to this campaign, low number of scripts in particular, are for this reason - campaign/maps tend to be put on shelf.


That assumption simply makes no sense, I can do the scripting/story of my own map no problem, but at the end of the day, it will be a story to fit what I've drawn on the map, so there's really no difference at all if its karma or myself the one to come up with the story.
The story was going to be a patchwork of milestones or heroic deeds anyways, so I imagine continuity is never going to be a problem.
Furthermore, there's nothing more "collaborative" that making a single map between more that one map maker :smooch:

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 4 2016, 22:05

Sorry, but for me it is risk that something will not be as planned. For example we will think out the story where main hero is undead. And what? Your map doesn't have undeads. You could add undeads but this imply that the land is a dead barren and you have only green countryside... et cetera et cetera.

Rules are simple. One mapmaker - one map. One map - one story. And the map should represent the story not the opposite because it will be A MESS to join everything in one campaign.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 5 2016, 19:11

So Marsupio, are you in?
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Dr.Marsupio » Jan 6 2016, 4:07

Duzeom_ wrote:Sorry, but for me it is risk that something will not be as planned. For example we will think out the story where main hero is undead. And what? Your map doesn't have undeads. You could add undeads but this imply that the land is a dead barren and you have only green countryside... et cetera et cetera.


I'm sorry, but I'd to have serious limitations as a storyteller to not be able to put up a coherent narration, in your scenario the hero can be placed in a boat with his starting army, ready to unleash an undead invasion upon the lands, this takes care of both the problems you scenario proposes. Of course, this is only an isolated example, but the same can be done for every other scenario, and as you can see, it's not something farfetched at all. The map is going to be completed on time, I dont know why you assume its not going to; have a little more faith on me and Karma.

Karmakeld wrote:So Marsupio, are you in?


Yhea, I'd like that.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 6 2016, 13:09

Do your map has lot of scripts? Or it needs lot of scripts?

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Taro » Jan 9 2016, 10:00

So, we have four mapmakers, am I right? Maybe it's time for some story or concept? As for me Christian the knight would be a good choice. He was pretty famous in the old world and it would be interesting to know his new adventures in Axeoth.

Let's say in the first scenario he needs to defeat some slavers around the Golden Sea (chaos towns). It's a random idea which came to my mind.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 9 2016, 10:50

Maybe pretty famous but I don't recognize any of his former story...

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Taro » Jan 9 2016, 21:19

Heroes 3 AB, Foolhardy Waywardness campaign. It's locked until you finish another five campaigns.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 10 2016, 9:23

Sorry but I will not play Heroes 3 AB now to know Christian story.

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Karmakeld » Jan 10 2016, 12:59

I don't see why his background story is so important? I find it interesting to work with existing heroes, and I think it might help make a general higher public interest vs. some totally unknown hero. I don't remember much about most H3 heroes/stories either, but Taro is free to add any background/memories to his story which he feels like, and the rest of us, can simply leave it out. The story is to take place in Axeoth, so any events taken place in the old world, is as relevant as each mapmaker decide. We could ask Taro to sum up some of the most important events in Christian past, but still I think we're free to give him new memories or if his set of mind is different from the past, well guess what, it's a new world (besides four different people is writing). The events could have changed him. We have all those liberties.
Duzeom you wanted a simple story, yet any suggested hero so far, you have declined 'coz you don't know them very well. But aren't we supposed to explore the unknown/new stories of said hero, taking place in the new world?

Regarding the four mapmakers, I asume you mean Taro, Duzeom and Marsupio/Karmakeld = 3..
What about iLiveInAbox? Are you up for it Derrick?
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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby Duzeom_ » Jan 10 2016, 14:48

@Karmakeld - I will not insist on fictional main character but I think it gives as so much freedom so we will not jump into some story contradictions. For example, Taro which knows whole the former story can add some new story based on them - I cannot do this. But as you said, to not create a game which is not "smooth" in storytelling, I can add some fictional "memories". Nevertheless these new memories can be contradict with the previous story of main hero or what Taro has written in his part. It is unlikely so I think we can start from Christian (still omitting all I think he is rather not interesting hero...)

So Karmakeld and Mersupio is in one team? Still I didn't get an answer if Mersupio's map has lot of scripts, because if it does it will stand out.

Maybe some of you thinks that I am little tacky, but for me a main feature of our project should be: equal chances. And a map which has been created a lot before our project shouldn't take part in our "competition". Yes, I imagine our collaborative campaign of some kind of competition to create nice map, so that's why it motivates me so much :devil:

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Re: Collaborative H4 campaign

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Jan 10 2016, 17:00

Karmakeld wrote:I don't remember much about most H3 heroes/stories either, but Taro is free to add any background/memories to his story which he feels like, and the rest of us, can simply leave it out. The story is to take place in Axeoth, so any events taken place in the old world, is as relevant as each mapmaker decide. We could ask Taro to sum up some of the most important events in Christian past, but still I think we're free to give him new memories or if his set of mind is different from the past, well guess what, it's a new world (besides four different people is writing). The events could have changed him. We have all those liberties.


Foolhardy Waywardness is more of a comedic campaign. Sir Christian, an aspiring fragrance alchemist, is ship wrecked and has to try to find a way to get back home.

In the end, he is rescued by Queen Catherine as he holds out against pirates.

I guess this is supposed to explain why Sir Christian is your starting hero in the first map of the Restoration of Erathia campaign.

Heroes wiki claims he is alive as of Heroes 4 (although I don't remember any mention of him in Heroes 4), so I think he would be a decent choice for a hero to follow in Axoeth.

Karmakeld wrote:Regarding the four mapmakers, I asume you mean Taro, Duzeom and Marsupio/Karmakeld = 3..
What about iLiveInAbox? Are you up for it Derrick?


I could probably be convinced to join in, but my main focus on making maps / campaigns is definitely the story, so I wouldn't be able to keep that out. I do also enjoy scripting, especially the custom skill stuff, so something like that might show up as well. I also like the RPG type stuff, but could probably figure out a way to incorporate heroes towns and creature dwellings, etc. :D


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