Thinking of creating H4 LOTR campaign/s based on the books.

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Steven Aus
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Thinking of creating H4 LOTR campaign/s based on the books.

Unread postby Steven Aus » 02 Jul 2015, 13:35

I think H4's unique campaign and scripting systems (plus heroes in battles) provides a unique opportunity for following the plot of the books, with possibly some exceptions (like the story of the dwarves which is not covered directly in The Lord of the Rings, and perhaps the story of the Elves of Lothlorien in the War of the Rings). I know this is a big project, but instead of trying to create a world map of the entire LOTR area, I think a H4 Winds of War or Equilibris campaign (or campaigns, if there is a limit to the number of scenarios in a campaign) would be an excellent tool for creating a really great LOTR-in-H4 adaptation. And I think it would be greatly enhanced (and work shared) by multiple people helping out. I would probably be using Equilibris.

So my first question is, who is willing to help me in various capacities? This would include map-making, scripting, lore (including that about areas that weren't directly covered in the story of the LOTR books), necessary changes to fit the Heroes 4 playstyle including Potions of Immortality and the Heroes playstyle of fighting creatures to level up, although Stealth is a possibility for the weaker heroes like the Hobbits (for some battles - the battles in Moria and perhaps others might be a bit different), any changes necessary to make an effective H4 campaign or campaigns, as well as Potion, Item, Powerup and Skill/Spell choices (including how to handle the Hobbits in various stages of the game/story, since you can have a maximum of 7 heroes in one combat, and in certain parts it might be suitable for Frodo to be a hero with some Halfling troops, or Sam by himself in certain stages) for the various items/heroes/locations in the LOTR story.

Second question: is there any limit to the number of scenarios in a H4 Winds of War or Equilibris campaign?

I helped out Charles Watkins with his H2 Expansion map of Lord of the Rings (I called myself the Western Wizard then). With the heroes in battles in H4, I think it is possible to more create the Fellowship "feel" along with the fellowships small battles, as well as the epic armies (and accompanying heroes) that made up some epic LOTR clashes. Plus the scripting, map beauty and array of powerups and items in H4 and Equilibris (as well as the power of Quest and Border Gates and Guards) is excellent.

I see that the LOTR maps already on the Celestial Heavens archives received mixed reviews, and I didn't see a LOTR campaign there. I think the H4 Campaign format, Scripting power and heroes in battles is especially suited to telling a (possibly expanded) LOTR story in a HOMM4 context, and the beauty of H4 seems to be in the LOTR style.

So, who would like to help me in this quest? I would greatly appreciate any and all help I receive, and I think that would really add the quality of the finished product as well as allowing it to be finished in a reasonable timeframe. =)

I know there are those who would be interested, as I think this is the premiere web-site for Heroes games and there is no LOTR campaign that I know of in the Celestial Heavens archives for H4, and LOTR seems best suited in a campaign and hero and scripting-heavy context.

I look forward to your replies. =)
Last edited by Steven Aus on 02 Jul 2015, 13:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 02 Jul 2015, 13:47

A campaign sounds interesting, but also hilariously complicated to do.

And the premier site for Heroes, as Salamandre will undoubtedly point out, is Heroes Community; though I suppose thanks to Dalai and the Might and Magic focus this is the premier site for HoMM4 and the mapping aspect specifically.

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Unread postby Steven Aus » 02 Jul 2015, 13:51

Yes, I agree with your points on Heroes Community and H4 specifically.

Well, I wouldn't be looking at taking on this task without some really good collaborators. I don't think it is worth doing unless the finished result is a high standard and doesn't take years to finish.

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Unread postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » 02 Jul 2015, 14:12

Steven Aus wrote:Yes, I agree with your points on Heroes Community and H4 specifically.

Well, I wouldn't be looking at taking on this task without some really good collaborators. I don't think it is worth doing unless the finished result is a high standard and doesn't take years to finish.
Don't let anyone discourage you :D

I probably won't be much help due to time constraints of my own (I have little enough time to work on my campaign as it is :() But I can probably help you out with scripting questions / create some scripts for you as needed.

In my opinion, the best way to approach this campaign would be to plot out the story you want to tell. You might do separate campaigns for each thread. For example: One campaign could follow the hobbits from the shire, through the end of the fellowship. Or you could just follow the hobbits from the shire all the way to the end :D

Other threads, like the elves, could have their own campaign if there's enough information.

If you want it all in one, then you might want to draw out an actual timeline of the events, and then you could maybe interleave maps (like the chapters of a book from different points of view, think Song of Ice and Fire).

Lots of possibilities, but deciding on the order of things and what goes in which map would be a good place to start. That's actually the most complicated part. Once you know what goes where, you can look at what can actually be done with the tools we have :D

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Unread postby Steven Aus » 02 Jul 2015, 15:24

I would like to take in all the major events from the books. I know there is a short section where Aragorn, the Rangers, Legolas and Gimli set off into the Paths of the Dead. It is the only section of the book I think that none of the hobbits take part in (by and large, The Lord of the Rings is written from the Hobbits' perspective, or at least with at least one of them as part of the party).

Do you know of a good source of a timeline for the Lord of the Rings events?

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 02 Jul 2015, 16:46

There are various LOTR wikis. But then, do you really need a timeline? I'd understand for something like the Silmarillion, but LOTR isn't all that complex.

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Unread postby jeff » 02 Jul 2015, 18:09

First as far as number of maps in a campaign; I'd always thought 8 was the max, but the Megon Chronicles are going to use more.

Even if it is 8, you can create a series of mini-campaigns (one for Frodo, another for Aragon, so on) and have it end in a central campaign much like Winds of War. I started one of those; finished one mini, almost finished the second, but was so burnt out and had lost my collaborators that it has sat dormant now for over 2 years.

My suggestions would be do it in parts with breaks in between; get a group you can trust to test and help, and finally realize real world will intrude so don't let it string out too long.
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Unread postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » 02 Jul 2015, 18:11

Steven Aus wrote:I would like to take in all the major events from the books. I know there is a short section where Aragorn, the Rangers, Legolas and Gimli set off into the Paths of the Dead. It is the only section of the book I think that none of the hobbits take part in (by and large, The Lord of the Rings is written from the Hobbits' perspective, or at least with at least one of them as part of the party).

Do you know of a good source of a timeline for the Lord of the Rings events?
If you go to google and search "Lord of the Rings timeline of events" the first link seems to have events broken down by day. Might be overkill though :D You could just compile the chronology of the big events and maybe some lesser ones you want to hit. Once it's all down in a nice way for you to look at, you won't have to think about it again, it'll be right there if you need to reference it :D

It's not about "complexity." It's about being organized. Plain and simple, things are easier to accomplish when you're organized.

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Unread postby Steven Aus » 03 Jul 2015, 14:10

Is there a detailed map of the Shire around Bag End? Or is there room for interpretation?

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Unread postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » 03 Jul 2015, 14:49

Steven Aus wrote:Is there a detailed map of the Shire around Bag End? Or is there room for interpretation?
I'm sure there's room for interpretation :D

Are we allowed to post links here? I seem to recall somewhere that we're not supposed to, so back to google :D Type in "Lord of the Rings map of Bag End" and the first link (lotr wiki) has a floor plan picture. Looks like you can also check out the google images for that search.

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Unread postby Steven Aus » 03 Jul 2015, 15:31

Does anyone apart from iLiVeInAbOx05 want to offer their help?

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 03 Jul 2015, 15:59

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:Are we allowed to post links here?
Of course you are. You must be thinking of some place else...

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Unread postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » 03 Jul 2015, 19:01

GreatEmerald wrote:Of course you are. You must be thinking of some place else...
I must be. Thanks!

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Unread postby Steven Aus » 04 Jul 2015, 01:48

Well, I've put the call out for at least two other major collaborators on the Heroes Community forums as well, so fingers crossed. =) I would really love for the campaign/s to go ahead, but I don't think I would be able to complete it on my own. =)

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Unread postby Karmakeld » 04 Jul 2015, 09:02

I'll offer my help, but only in the same scale as ILiveInABox, as I also got my own campaign projects. I can help with idea development, scripting, testing, creating LOTR heroes portraits (this will require Equlibris), but I don't have time to help with actual mapmaking.
Also consider the challenges of having says 3 ppl. working on the same map.
And be realistic about the project. A campaign will take years to complete. At least if you want a good end result.
Some prep. Advices: as already suggested, start by making an overview of events you want to cover. This will help you plan the numbers of maps, the order they should come in, win/lose conditions (possible multiple/changing conditions within a map), which heroes takes part in which maps, how large should each map be to cover its story part, should it be 1 long campaign, a small series ending in 1 gathering, or should each map be a campaign. Depending on which heroes/story parts you want to cover (also think carryover), each campaign set up can have diff. advantages.
I can only agree that H4 offers some interesting opportunities to create a LOTR campaign compared to other Heroes games. What I find most interesting, is that win conditions don't necessarily have to be 'defeat your enemy'.
You might also wanna have a look at other LOTR/ The Hobbit games for inspiration both regarding story coverage but also win conditions and ideas in general. Just because this is a turnbased game, doesn't mean you can't addapt ideas from other types of games. I'll give you a few examples, some of which I use in my campaign. You could poison wells, kill enemies and collect their body parts, sneak up behind/past enemies and knock them out, set buildings on fire, create 'mini maps/games' where you'd have to sneak past guards into a town (using creatures instead of heroes), create illusionary visions similar to Silent Hills daytime vs. The Darkness transformation.
But I suggest you start with the preparation work, and then post your ideas for maps, conditions story etc. Or share them with those willing to help. Sharing ideas before testing, might save you the time of having to add it later on. Good luck with the project.
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Unread postby Steven Aus » 04 Jul 2015, 09:32

I've narrowed it down a bit. At this stage the adaptation would start with Frodo saying goodbye to Hobbiton (allowing a chance to visit some areas in Hobbiton) then it would follow the story of the hobbits traveling from Hobbiton to Rivendell (as I find that part of the story quite interesting and special), the Mines of Moria, the major Rohan and Minas Tirith battles, Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor and the end of Sauron, Saruman's fall by the Ents, and the Scouring of the Shire followed by an epilogue with Frodo and the others going into the West, with obviously some adaptations to fit the HOMM4 mold (focus on exploring, resource collecting, combat etc, possibly stealth).

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Unread postby Karmakeld » 04 Jul 2015, 12:58

So a 9 map campaign?
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Unread postby Duzeom_ » 04 Jul 2015, 14:15

Megom Chronicles has 17 maps in total in two different campaigns and it took me 5 years to accomplish or even more...

I definitely suggest that the campaign shouldn't be longer than 5-6 maps. Yes it is a small amount and a lot of other campaigns are longer. Megom Chronicles Tales of Souls has 9 maps and it was very hard to maintain and balance. The reason why this long campaign has a right to exist is that - you can play in one campaign with few fractions and you don't play all along with one hero.

So my postulate is rather that: one hero shouldn't be a main hero in more than 5-6 maps. Why you ask? Because of heroes experience gain rate (EGR). 5 maps are quite sufficient to experience your hero to 30 level and more. That means it is a one-hero-army in 5/6 map. After that it is extremely hard to keep a game at challenging level. These means a lot of script work which is very annoying. You could lower EGR by putting less power-ups, but essentially you won't block leveling up (because level caps sucks), maybe you could prolong the hero for 7 maps but ... playing without power-ups is just dull . B-)

So if I were you and I wanted to create such long story I would divide it into smaller pieces. You could take two options: or create one campaign where stories entwine each other or few smaller campaign where every each tells the story of one persona.

My second advice is that: the more sophisticated plot the more scripts you are gonna create. The more scripts the longer time it will take to create a campaign. And I talk about event scripts as well as text messages. Making scripts is really boring choir. It broke down me few times when I stopped working on the campaign for a half a year.

If I had time and fancy to LOTR I would help you. But unfortunately I don't have both. Still I dream about one collaborative campaign about fictional plot.

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Unread postby jeff » 04 Jul 2015, 15:33

Duzeom_ wrote: So my postulate is rather that: one hero shouldn't be a main hero in more than 5-6 maps. Why you ask? Because of heroes experience gain rate (EGR). 5 maps are quite sufficient to experience your hero to 30 level and more. That means it is a one-hero-army in 5/6 map. After that it is extremely hard to keep a game at challenging level.
I echo this remark. In my campaigns, heroes were only present in a max of 5 of the 8 map Dragon's Fate (5 was pushing the limit for keeping it interesting) and only 4 of the 6 maps of Lamentia's Story. As stated, it is difficult to make the later maps interesting for heroes who will be highly developed by the last map. If you limit their progression in the early maps; then those maps will need to be small quick maps. Limiting hero development to too low of a level makes for a boring map, because you either have to limit the powerups or have a quick win situation. Most players want to bring their hero up to the max allowed level, but then if there is too much to do; the player will likely loose interest in the map. So though 8 is not the limit; I had thought, but from a practical level, it should be.
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Unread postby Salamandre » 04 Jul 2015, 18:17

Steven Aus wrote:Well, I've put the call out for at least two other major collaborators on the Heroes Community forums as well, so fingers crossed. =) I would really love for the campaign/s to go ahead, but I don't think I would be able to complete it on my own. =)
Very unlikely is current form. The problem in HC is that people are used to dozens of mega-projects advertising but never progressing, thus they will react only if you show motivation and a percentage done. If you already have the first map ready, make a video about game play, show some screens, display some story then HoMM4 fans will most probably answer. Also, why not go for 2-3 maps campaign then aim to more only if people join, that's how projects have a chance to complete.

On the other side, people from CH are way more creative at H4 than those from HC, which mainly setup yearly tournaments.


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