Call to H-IV mapmakers - AI enchancing scripts

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 26 2015, 5:56

PatFX wrote:There is something we forgot about moral (i did some test because I was not sure, test is our best friend):

A creature with good moral deal 25% more damage and a creature with bad moral deal 20% less damage.


PatFX wrote:I did some test (with 90% of all spell), and the only spell that I can't cast on my troop was:

1- Bloodlust and Bloodfrenzy
2- Precision and Mass precision
3- Mirth and Mass Fervor


Huh, if these are both true, they don't make much sense to me because it's not documented at all. Why would either of those happen?

Also, for Mind Shield, someone should then test what hostile spells you get immunity from. The only way that list makes sense to me is if there are fewer spells considered "mind" than I thought, in which case it should work both ways.

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Postby Karmakeld » May 26 2015, 8:37

I got a request. Could we please update the list with suggested changes, instead of 'I'd place it between this and that or above that one'?
I think it'll help getting a better overview and to avoid any confusion.

The list of necklaces with PatFX's latest suggestion (no objections so far?):

Necklace of Muses
Ankh of Life
Scarab of Summoning
Fizbin of Misfortune
Statesman’s Medal
Necklace of Balance
Necklace of Charm
Medal of Honor
Amulet of Fear
Mirror of Revenge
Druid’s Chain
Amulet of the Undertaker

I agree with set items being on top in case of a complete set. this should have been taken this into consideration so far. But a seperate list for complete sets is a good idea. But I think you should finish the helmet list first :)

Dalai, did you have another suggested solution for the Learning Stone script?
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Postby Karmakeld » May 26 2015, 9:15

I did some test (with 90% of all spell), and the only spell that I can't cast on my troop was:

1- Bloodlust and Bloodfrenzy
2- Precision and Mass precision
3- Mirth and Mass Fervor

Huh, if these are both true, they don't make much sense to me because it's not documented at all. Why would either of those happen?

Also, for Mind Shield, someone should then test what hostile spells you get immunity from. The only way that list makes sense to me is if there are fewer spells considered "mind" than I thought, in which case it should work both ways


My quick test gave the same result - can we say that two tests with the same result is enough to document it :) Which spells, that aren't on the list, would you consider mind spells?

Hostile spells you get immune to are:
Cowardice
Confusion and Cloud of Confusion
Song of Peace
Sorrow
Beserk
Terror
Forgetfulness
Hypnotize

note that Blind and Wasp Swarm aren't mind spells. I'm not sure why Precision is considered a mind spell, but the rest makes sense to me.
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Postby PatFX » May 26 2015, 13:49

Hi guys, I did some test with Neckalce of Charm, Statesman's Medal and Ankh of Life and I did found something interresting:

If the hero has Neckalce of Charm or Statesman's Medal equip before combat, you can get creature even if you put an other neckalce on an encounter script. it Means that charm/Diplomacy act before the Encounter Script.

For that reason, we can put Neckalce of Charm and Statesman's Medal on a Victorious script instead of encounter so the hero can use a good necklace for combat and benifit from Neckalce of Charm and Statesman's Medal.

I did try to put Ankh of Life on the Victorious script but it's not working. That means Ankh of Life need to be already on the Hero during combat to be effective.

So with this new information, list would be:

Encounter Script:
Necklace of Muses
Ankh of Life
Scarab of Summoning
Fizbin of Misfortune
Medal of Honor*
Necklace of Balance
Amulet of Fear
Mirror of Revenge
Statesman’s Medal
Necklace of Charm
Druid’s Chain
Amulet of the Undertaker


Victorious Script:
Statesman’s Medal
Necklace of Charm
... (same list as encounter)

I don't know if you will agree, I did put Medal of Honor before Necklace of Balance because of the 25% more damage bonus from good moral. Necklace of Balance is good, but only for Order/Chaos and not for all spell. I have no problem to keep Necklace of Balance before too... You choose!

I can update the Helmet list, but before, I want to know what GreatEmerald think about your test (hostile spell results) with Mind shield and have is opinion about it (where we should put it in the list).

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Postby PatFX » May 26 2015, 14:49

Here is my list for Armor:

Armor of Chaos (20, Order Ward) (if opposing troop is Order)
Armor of Death (20, Life Ward) (if opposing troop is Life)
Armor of Life (20, Death Ward) (if opposing troop is Death)
Armor of Order (20, Chaos Ward) (if opposing troop is Chaos)
Unnatural Armor (20, Nature Ward) (if opposing troop is Nature)

Adamantine Armor (50)
Tiger Armor (25, +2 Speed and +2 movement)
Dragon Scale Armor (25, Fire Resistance)
Breastplate of Regeneration (20, +20 HP and+2HP/level)
Gryphonheart's Plate Mail (30)
Harmonic Chainmail (15, Mirth, so +25% damage and play first)
Brimstone Breastplate (20, Fire Shield)
Armor of Chaos (20, Order Ward)
Armor of Order (20, Chaos Ward)
Armor of Life (20, Death Ward)
Armor of Death (20, Life Ward)
Unnatural Armor (20, Nature Ward)
Scale Mail of Strength (10, +10 attack)
Elven Chainmail (10)
Leather (5)
Chain Mail (8, -1 movement and +1 casting cost)
Plate Mail (10, -2 movement and +2 casting cost)


I'm not sure about priority for Tiger, Dragon Scale, Breastplate of Regeneration, Gryphonheart, Harmonic Chainmail and Brimstone.

What do you think?

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Postby Karmakeld » May 26 2015, 17:00

It's a good thing changing necklaces upon encounter isn't cheating ;)
I'd say Regenration is generally more useful than fire resistance. Also Fire Shield can be rather powerful. I guess most of the bonuses could add up for the extra defense Gryphonheart offers, so I would list it something like this:

(ward armours IF alignment check)
(Tiger - set)
Adamantine Armor (50)
Tiger Armor (25, +2 Speed and +2 movement)
Breastplate of Regeneration (20, +20 HP and+2HP/level)
Brimstone Breastplate (20, Fire Shield)
Gryphonheart's Plate Mail (30)
Harmonic Chainmail (15, Mirth, so +25% damage and play first)
Dragon Scale Armor (25, Fire Resistance)
Armor of Chaos (20, Order Ward)
Armor of Order (20, Chaos Ward)
Armor of Life (20, Death Ward)
Armor of Death (20, Life Ward)
Unnatural Armor (20, Nature Ward)
Scale Mail of Strength (10, +10 attack)
Elven Chainmail (10)
Leather (5)
Chain Mail (8, -1 movement and +1 casting cost)
Plate Mail (10, -2 movement and +2 casting cost)
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 27 2015, 8:25

PatFX wrote:I can update the Helmet list, but before, I want to know what GreatEmerald think about your test (hostile spell results) with Mind shield and have is opinion about it (where we should put it in the list).


Eh, I'm still a bit torn on that one. It does help against more spells than prevents casting beneficial ones, and yet the beneficial ones all have mass versions and neutral troops will rarely cast mind spells on you, while the hero is going to have access to spells every battle. So I'd put it higher than where I initially put it but not too much higher. (Also, it doesn't prevent blind, so the helm of seeing is sort of in a league of its own :D But I guess Mind Shield would go slightly above the Seeing one)

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Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » May 28 2015, 18:29

Thinking specifically about making the AI more difficult (or easier), here's an idea as far as the artifact stuff goes (prioritizing individual artifacts is very subjective).

Would it be a little easier to come up with sets of artifacts that the AI would have (removed after battle if defeated), tailored to the difficulty level?

For example:

Easy = AI fights with no artifacts.
Medium = AI fights with a set of basic artifacts (predefined set of artifacts based on, say, might / magic type)
Hard = AI fights with a better set of artifacts

and so on.

There could be several predefined sets for each type which can be selected at random (within the type).

Just another thought. I think this might be a bit easier to come up with sets of artifacts people can agree on (at least in my opinion). :D

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Postby Karmakeld » May 28 2015, 19:12

Not a bad Idea. We could Make some different sets, that could Be randomised, based on difficulty. But compared to the other solution, This would generally give stronger AI's, whereas the other Will optimize AI's choice of artifacts based on their backpack.
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 28 2015, 19:59

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:Would it be a little easier to come up with sets of artifacts that the AI would have (removed after battle if defeated), tailored to the difficulty level?


No. Because for one, that's cheating, and for two, the AI might very well already have better artifacts than your predefined set.

Also, coming up with artifact lists isn't that difficult, we're pretty much done already.

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Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » May 28 2015, 19:59

Karmakeld wrote:Not a bad Idea. We could Make some different sets, that could Be randomised, based on difficulty. But compared to the other solution, This would generally give stronger AI's, whereas the other Will optimize AI's choice of artifacts based on their backpack.


Correct, this idea definitely leans more toward buffing the AI rather than making it smarter.

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Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » May 28 2015, 20:03

GreatEmerald wrote:No. Because for one, that's cheating, and for two, the AI might very well already have better artifacts than your predefined set.

Also, coming up with artifact lists isn't that difficult, we're pretty much done already.


I didn't say anything about cheating or not, and your response doesn't actually address the ease of implementation ;)

If the AI has predefined artifact sets based on difficulty, then it doesn't actually matter what artifacts, if any, it picks up on the map.

Like I said before, this idea would be strictly for making the AI more difficult.

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Postby Karmakeld » May 28 2015, 20:04

GreatEmerald, yeah I was thinking about the same issue of what if AI had better artifacts.
But Iliveinabox, you could always put your suggested script in the map Makers guild, for ways to boost/improve difficulties.
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 28 2015, 20:56

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:I didn't say anything about cheating or not, and your response doesn't actually address the ease of implementation ;)

If the AI has predefined artifact sets based on difficulty, then it doesn't actually matter what artifacts, if any, it picks up on the map.


The implementation isn't any easier (it's already pretty easy as it is), and artifacts not mattering is terrible, the AI will waste its resources trying to get artifacts it can't use.

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Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » May 28 2015, 21:05

GreatEmerald wrote:The implementation isn't any easier (it's already pretty easy as it is), and artifacts not mattering is terrible, the AI will waste its resources trying to get artifacts it can't use.


Actually, it is easier.

And, yet again, it's tailored to the difficulty level selected.

No, the AI doesn't waste resources trying to get artifacts. That doesn't even make sense. As a mapmaker you would have to put the artifacts there for the AI to "waste resources" on. Why would you do so if there were already artifact sets tied to the AI?

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Postby GreatEmerald » May 28 2015, 21:51

Because this is not (strictly) for mapmakers, it's for adding to all maps in an automated fashion. And maps typically have artifacts in them.

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Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » May 29 2015, 1:22

GreatEmerald wrote:Because this is not (strictly) for mapmakers, it's for adding to all maps in an automated fashion. And maps typically have artifacts in them.


Right, map makers or players have the option to use a feature or not. The artifact list that was being discussed here would do nothing for the RPG type maps that I'm working on. The sets that I spoke of, however, would increase the difficulty.

As the OP stated, not all of these scripts / ideas will work for every map. That's the entire point of the automated tool to choose what you want to enhance your playing experience.

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Postby Karmakeld » May 29 2015, 7:42

Well it would Seem likely that other players/map Makers (Taro, Wimfrits ??) would like an option like This. Wheter it's considered cheating or not, I don't think is important as long as it Can be individually set, wheter you want AI's to start either preset artifacts or have Them switch to the best pickup.
If a menu/settings like Salamandre's Can Be done, I ser no reason not to please the crowd. But obviously it's two different discussions, so why keep mixing Them up?
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 29 2015, 8:29

Karmakeld wrote:If a menu/settings like Salamandre's Can Be done, I ser no reason not to please the crowd. But obviously it's two different discussions, so why keep mixing Them up?


Exactly.

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Postby PatFX » May 29 2015, 15:12

Regarding artifact (iLiVeInAbOx05 suggestion) and all other way to change the difficulty, I got few good ideas. There is a lot of different thing we can do for difficulty.

Let's finish the artifact priority discussion for AI first, then we could talk about difficulty.

I'm a little bit busy right now, but I will come back to you soon.


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