Call to H-IV mapmakers - AI enchancing scripts

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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GreatEmerald
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 23 2015, 13:43

Hm, when would the checks happen? After battles, or also before battles? If both, then if it's a pre-battle check, the list would be:
Wayfarer Boots
Winged Sandals
Boots of Travel
Boots of the Explorer
All other boots (is there a check for current terrain type?)

And in a post-battle check:
Wayfarer Boots
Boots of Travel
Boots of the Explorer
All other boots
Winged Sandals

And as for terrain boots, if there's no terrain type check, then there's sorting by either how much penalty each terrain type has, or the likelihood that the terrain type will be used (most maps are grassy with little sand). Due to the uncertainties in the latter, I'd say it's better to use the former.

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Postby Karmakeld » May 23 2015, 13:52

and as safety is important for AI heroes, it's important to always Wear helmets or hardhats so they don't end up with an open skull :creative:

Helm of Command (+20% to all friendly's Melee/Ranged Attack, +20% Melee/Ranged Defense, +1 to their speed)
Mullich’s Helm of Leadership (+2 morale and +1 speed)
Hideous Mask (gives Hero Fear)
Griffin Helmet (unlimited retal.)
Supreme Crown of the Magi (+50 spell point, reg. 10 extra/day)
Helm of Power (+20 spell point, 4 extra/day)
Magic Amplifier (-33% spell cost to all friendly)

Mind Shield (all friendly immune to mind spells)
Crown of Enchantment (cast mind spells on creatures immune to mind spells)
Helm of Seeing (all friendly immune to blind)
Circlet of Winsdom (+10 spells point, 2 extra/day)
Cap of Knowledge (+5 spell points, 1 extra/day)
Seaman’s Hat (no penelty for boarding ships)

Again we can't check if opponents has certains spells and several are only useful if hero has spellcasting creatures, so apart from the top 6, I guess some might want to rearrange the bottom ones.
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Postby Karmakeld » May 23 2015, 14:59

No way to check for terrain types no.
Patfx suggested it's an encountered script, but for those Adventure map related artifacts it would make sense to make a daily/victorious check, atleast for the few movement/scouting radius increasing artifacts.
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 23 2015, 15:53

Well, it would be useful to run the script all three times: before (unequip adventure items), after a battle (unequip battle items) and daily (equip new adventure items found).

For headgear, I don't think I'd agree with your sorting there. Remember that morale is pointless for AI vs AI battles, and I don't see how Hideous Mask helps at all unless the hero is a ranged one (which happens only like a quarter of the time). Meanwhile, not running out of SP is important around half the time, if not more. So I'd make it:

Helm of Command
Supreme Crown of the Magi
Helm of Power
Helm of Seeing
Magic Amplifier
Crown of Enchantment
Mullich’s Helm of Leadership
Griffin Helmet
Circlet of Wisdom
Mind Shield
Cap of Knowledge
Hideous Mask
Seaman’s Hat

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Postby Karmakeld » May 23 2015, 17:32

Yeah I had just forgotten that Morale doesn't have any affect on AI vs AI.
I Also just realized that I had forgotten Archmage's Hat (set) (+10 spell point regen. extra 2/day and Blur) and Tiger Helm (set) (+5 att/def, negate first strike).
Would you care to add those two, to the list?
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 23 2015, 17:41

Hm, I'd put both between the Helm of Seeing and the Magic Amplifier.

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Postby Karmakeld » May 23 2015, 18:09

But the list should also consider AI vs. Human, in which case I do think Mullich's Helm and Hideous Mask are useful. No one opposed to the idea of finding the averagely best artifacts for AI, considering both AI's and Human enemies. Either that or we're back to taking all the if's into consideration..
I see a point in combat vs. adventure map artifacts, but that's also rather simple, as it's merely listing and not in the same way conditioned by many factors.

As for Necklaces: (G.E. I'll try to take into consideration that AI is likely to face more AI's than human troops on this list :))

Necklace of Muses (set) (+15 S.P. and extra 5/day)
Fizbin of Misfortune (misfortune)
Medal of Honor (+2 morale)
Amulet of Fear (no retaliation)
Druid’s Chain (+1 lvl. summon/basic summon)
Statesman’s Medal (+5%/basic resurrection)
Necklace of Charm (+5%/basic charm)
Statesman’s Medal (+10%/basic diplomacy)
Amulet of the Undertaker (+10 %/basic necromancy)
Necklace of Balance (set) (increase Order/Chaos spells +25%)
Scarab of Summoning (summon, raise, illusion spells +100%)
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 23 2015, 18:55

Yes, of course, that's why I put Mullich's helm above the Circlet of Wisdom. As for the Hideous mask, I still don't see how it would be useful, AI opponent or not...

The necklaces, well, I don't think you take that factor into consideration enough :D But yes, the necklaces are interesting that they add skills, and I think the skill effects for the AI vary quite a bit.

For instance, resurrection is always useful. Basic summoning, on the other hand, is pretty terrible for non-nature heroes: most of the time it's useless because there's no space in the army, and the remaining time they'll summon Leprechauns and Wolves and slow their army down, so it's actually worse than having nothing equipped. Same with necromancy, and similar with charm. Diplomacy on the other hand is very useful because the AI tends to surrender a lot.

Also, the resurrection one is the Ankh of Life :P

So I'd go in this order:

Necklace of Muses
Scarab of Summoning
Ankh of Life
Fizbin of Misfortune
Statesman’s Medal
Necklace of Balance
Amulet of Fear
Medal of Honor
Necklace of Charm
Druid’s Chain
Amulet of the Undertaker

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Postby Karmakeld » May 23 2015, 19:21

Oh I listed Stateman's Medal twice by mistake.
Regarding Scarab of Summoning, it's useless for might heroes, heroes with no summon, raise or illusion spells. Even if AI has any of these but face a stronger opponent, AI is likely not to use any of these kind of spells thus it's useless.
Charm as far as I recall only works with your own/friendly alignments and what if AI already has wolves? I don't see why AI shouldn't benefit from the extra troops. Otherwise you'd have to prevent AI from Building all slow troops.
Druid's Chain should have bern lower but you don't seem to consider AI vs Human..
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Postby Duzeom_ » May 23 2015, 19:24

I think you are thinking too much.
First version should be that way:
common artifact 1
minor artifact 2
major artifact 3 etc.
and check if this really works.

Second thought: How You will apply this script to EVERY AI hero? Even the ones who are hired throughout the game?

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Postby GreatEmerald » May 23 2015, 21:20

Karmakeld wrote:Regarding Scarab of Summoning, it's useless for might heroes, heroes with no summon, raise or illusion spells. Even if AI has any of these but face a stronger opponent, AI is likely not to use any of these kind of spells thus it's useless.


But the boost it gives is massive, and if the hero knows Nature, Death or Order (more than half the schools) they'll most likely have at least one spell that qualifies. But yea, I forgot they prioritise mass spells and whatnot, so perhaps it should be a notch lower.

Karmakeld wrote:Charm as far as I recall only works with your own/friendly alignments


Nope, Charm is just a diet version of Diplomacy. Though it also lowers surrendering cost, so maybe it should be a notch up too.

Karmakeld wrote:and what if AI already has wolves? I don't see why AI shouldn't benefit from the extra troops. Otherwise you'd have to prevent AI from Building all slow troops.


There's about one in six chance that the AI will have wolves or summoning. That's not a whole lot. And in all other situations it's either useless or worse than useless. Also remember that if they're not of Nature alignment, in addition to slowing the army down it would lower the morale (for AI vs human fights).

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Postby Karmakeld » May 24 2015, 7:51

When Using morale as an arguement you're right, I should have taken the risk of opposite alignment into consideration regarding druids Chain. Duzeom, on the contrary it Seems we're not thinking enough ;)
Greatemerald, would you redo the necklace list?

About the implementation, I think Dalai should answer that. We're simply listing the artifacts. But Theres always the possibility of Using placed events for newly hired heroes, in case it's not possible to enhance all AI hero with This script.
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Postby GreatEmerald » May 24 2015, 8:05

All right:

Necklace of Muses
Ankh of Life
Scarab of Summoning
Fizbin of Misfortune
Statesman’s Medal
Necklace of Balance
Necklace of Charm
Amulet of Fear
Medal of Honor
Druid’s Chain
Amulet of the Undertaker

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Postby Dalai » May 25 2015, 17:28

PatFX wrote: so the only way to get 100% MR is invulnerable cloak or Grandmaster magic resistance....
Sometimes 85% MR is better than 100%. When your opponent tries to curse you and fails - it's better than when he knows he can't curse you and blesses his own troops instead.

Duzeom_ wrote:Second thought: How You will apply this script to EVERY AI hero? Even the ones who are hired throughout the game?
By putting scripts on all neutral armies. By the time new neutral armies appear, it does not matter that much. Or may be placed events near towns and othe high value objects. I hope it's possible.

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Postby PatFX » May 25 2015, 19:12

Hi guys!

The list for Boots look OK.

For helmet: Mind shield(all mind spell, including blind) is better than Helm of seeing (only blind spell), (or maybe I'm missing something....)

For set item (Tiger helm) I really think we should look if the set is complete. Tiger set is really good. Imagine the hero has all the tiger set, but is wearing the Helm of Power....

Magic amplifier is only good for long battle. For short battle, It add nothing and creature get back all there mana each battle (not like hero), so I think I would put Mullich's Helm of Leadership before (at least, this helm is really good vs Human), so something like this:


Helm of Command
Tiger Helm (if complete set)
Supreme Crown of the Magi (50/10)
Helm of Power (20/4)
Mind Shield (mind spell)
Mullich’s Helm of Leadership
Archmage's Hat (10/2 + Blur)
Circlet of Wisdom (10/2)
Tiger Helm
Magic Amplifier (33%)
Crown of Enchantment
Griffin Helmet
Hideous Mask
Cap of Knowledge (5/1)
Helm of Seeing
Seaman’s Hat

Regarding Necklace:

Mirror of Revenge is missing. The list look OK, except for Medal of Honor. I think I would put Medal of Honor before Amulet of Fear (I know, moral is useless vs AI, but so good vs Human)
Mirror of Revenge is totaly uselesss on a hero with Grandmaster magic resistance, but can be usefull otherwise. I would probably put it after Aura Fear.



Second thought: How You will apply this script to EVERY AI hero? Even the ones who are hired throughout the game?
By putting scripts on all neutral armies. By the time new neutral armies appear, it does not matter that much. Or may be placed events near towns and othe high value objects. I hope it's possible.



The script must be on the hero (on each hero). You can't put the script on neutral or with placed event (except if there is only 1 hero in the troop) because all the artifact will be remove from any hero in the troop (this army with a placed event or opposing army on a neutral), and then, all the artifact will be given back to the first hero in the troop.

So the only thing we can do is put a script on neutral and/or placed event with a conditionnal action : If total number of hero = 1, then take/give artifact.

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Postby GreatEmerald » May 25 2015, 19:42

PatFX wrote:For helmet: Mind shield(all mind spell, including blind) is better than Helm of seeing (only blind spell), (or maybe I'm missing something....)


Yeap, you're missing the fact that Mind shield makes friendly troops immune to all mind spells, not all hostile mind spells, thus it makes blesses (= entirety of Life Magic) completely useless.

PatFX wrote:For set item (Tiger helm) I really think we should look if the set is complete. Tiger set is really good. Imagine the hero has all the tiger set, but is wearing the Helm of Power....


I'd expect all sets to be checked for first, not just Tiger. I guess a set hierarchy would be useful too.

PatFX wrote:The list look OK, except for Medal of Honor. I think I would put Medal of Honor before Amulet of Fear (I know, moral is useless vs AI, but so good vs Human)


How is it any good against humans? In HoMM4 all morale does is make troops move a bit sooner or a bit later. I'd say any morale other than 0 is bad, because it makes turn order less predictable, and getting positive morale can really screw you over in some situations (case in point: usual turn order being hero, then an injured angel; plan is to use the hero to cast bind wound on the angel, then use the angel to attack an enemy; angel gets positive morale, and now either the angel dies attacking the enemy, or the angel has to wait until all enemies move). Even more so for the AI, because it would just charge forward with its weak troops and get them easily killed.

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Postby PatFX » May 25 2015, 21:05

Yeap, you're missing the fact that Mind shield makes friendly troops immune to all mind spells, not all hostile mind spells, thus it makes blesses (= entirety of Life Magic) completely useless.


That's a good fact.

How is it any good against humans? In HoMM4 all morale does is make troops move a bit sooner or a bit later. I'd say any morale other than 0 is bad, because it makes turn order less predictable, and getting positive morale can really screw you over in some situations (case in point: usual turn order being hero, then an injured angel; plan is to use the hero to cast bind wound on the angel, then use the angel to attack an enemy; angel gets positive morale, and now either the angel dies attacking the enemy, or the angel has to wait until all enemies move). Even more so for the AI, because it would just charge forward with its weak troops and get them easily killed.


Moving a bit sooner can be really good: For exemple, if computer has Cyclop, Faery dragon, Gargantuan or any range creature (except mechanical), he can kill a lot of your creature/hero before you can do anything.

Moral is good too for any spellcaster (hero or creature) I'm looking at you Evil Sorceress (mass cancellation = no more immortality potion...)

Sometime, the computer will attack with a creature and put it close to one of your range creature, preventing it to attack with range (only melee).

For sure, in the map I'm currently testing, I can tell you that moral and speed (for computer) are 2 things that gives me a lot of trouble. Sometime, moral/speed make the difference between loosing all my troop or kill the other troop without any lost. That's why one of my favorite item is the Harmonic Chainmail (mirth).

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Postby GreatEmerald » May 25 2015, 21:32

PatFX wrote:Moving a bit sooner can be really good: For exemple, if computer has Cyclop, Faery dragon, Gargantuan or any range creature (except mechanical), he can kill a lot of your creature/hero before you can do anything.


For the very first turn of the battle only, though, and it's only if there are magic or ranged troops (and in the latter case also only if there are any non-ranged targets).

Yet, for another counterexample, if you get positive morale, are slower than the enemy, and next turn you don't get positive morale, the enemy moves twice on you. Also, shooting early usually means with worse accuracy than after the enemies have already moved.

PatFX wrote:Moral is good too for any spellcaster (hero or creature) I'm looking at you Evil Sorceress (mass cancellation = no more immortality potion...)


Uh huh... And yet if there was no positive morale, mass cancellation = no more immortality potion AND no more mass bless!

PatFX wrote:Sometime, the computer will attack with a creature and put it close to one of your range creature, preventing it to attack with range (only melee).


Yeah, and make it go away from the other units and thus make very vulnerable to being attacked by all the melee units you have close to your ranged troops.

So, I'll just say I'm not convinced and still believe that no morale whatsoever is better due to being able to plan your moves better.

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Postby PatFX » May 26 2015, 1:05

Yet, for another counterexample, if you get positive morale, are slower than the enemy, and next turn you don't get positive morale, the enemy moves twice on you. Also, shooting early usually means with worse accuracy than after the enemies have already moved.



...but if the computer is slower on turn 1 and get good moral on turn number 2, he will play twice too....



Uh huh... And yet if there was no positive morale, mass cancellation = no more immortality potion AND no more mass bless!


If you play before an evil sorceress and you cast mass bless, you are playing wrong. If the sorceress cast mass cencelation before you, you will probably have an hero kill on turn#1.... or all your hero will need to take a potion of immortality....

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree at all. In my opinion, moral is really usefull (an other good exemple is casting mass slow before creatures comes to me, thanks to Harmonic Chainmail)

Anyway, i got an other good argument that will convice you:

There is something we forgot about moral (i did some test because I was not sure, test is our best friend):

A creature with good moral deal 25% more damage and a creature with bad moral deal 20% less damage.

I think we should consider this argument.

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Postby PatFX » May 26 2015, 1:42

Yeap, you're missing the fact that Mind shield makes friendly troops immune to all mind spells, not all hostile mind spells, thus it makes blesses (= entirety of Life Magic) completely useless.


I did some test (with 90% of all spell), and the only spell that I can't cast on my troop was:

1- Bloodlust and Bloodfrenzy
2- Precision and Mass precision
3- Mirth and Mass Fervor

I did probably miss one, but with Life, you can cast almost anything for sure (mass bless, prayer, celestial armor, Ward, Guardian Angel.....)

This helm protect agains a lot of good spell.

...so I still think Mind Shield should be swap with Helm of Seeing in the list.


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