Nitpicking About the Plot and Timeline

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Nitpicking About the Plot and Timeline

Unread postby Amehmet » 29 Sep 2012, 15:10

Hello! I've wasted a good part of my youth on the HoMM series, especially the third sequel. Being interested in plot and lore, I've been paying attention to details, which has led to many questions throughout the years. Of course, the answer to some of them concerning Heroes Chronicles and The Shadow of Death (such as how there are heroes whose biographies mention The Restoration of Erathia-era events, characters and states ;|) is simply "the developers didn't care enough", but I think there could be some questions worth discussing as well. ;) Note that I've never played any of the Might and Magic RPGs, but I have read on the Internet about some things never mentioned in HoMM -- the sci-fi origins of the M&M setting, for example -- so please fill me in if I'm missing a relevant point.

I'll start with the chronologically earliest point -- Warlords of the Wasteland, the first instalment of Heroes Chronicles; Bracaduun, Jarg and Tarnum. How do they all fit into the M&M timeline? I got the impression that WotW took place a very long time before HoMM 3, yet the barbarians had already been living their pristine pastoral lives in their homelands since times immemorial. Tarnum mentions Jarg's conquest, which allegedly happened a long time before his own. However, Restoration of Erathia begins only 1164 years after the Silence (the loss of contact between the Ancients, the colonisers of Colony -- the planet the first three parts of HoMM take place on, and the inhabitants of Colony). A fan-made timeline thus places Jarg's conquest at around 0-100 AS and Tarnum's exploits at ca. 100-200 AS, and this just doesn't make sense to me. I assume that all the knowledge and technology of the Ancients, a space-travelling civilisation, must have still been present when the Silence occurred. Yet Tarnum's people (only 100-200 years afterwards) don't seem to have remembrance of anything aside from their simple tribal society. Is it possible that the barbarians are natives, while the wizards of Bracaduun are colonisers, hence their superior technology? But how come they speak the same language? ;| (Okay, it's probably better not to think too much about the languages in a fantasy or sci-fi setting.) Or maybe both sides could be natives? I doubt that...

Has anyone other than me given thought to these things? :tongue:

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 29 Sep 2012, 20:53

First off, the HoMM3 planet is "The planet of Enroth". Now when that's clear:

In my opinion, WotW does indeed happen a bit after the Silence. Bracaduun is the local colonial government, but they resorted to using barbarians as slaves (hence all the revolts in WotW). As for the barbarians being natives, well, I don't think we have any evidence to support either side of the argument. It is true that they are ignorant of the technological nature of the Bracaduun's society. It could be that they are indeed natives. It could also be that there was enough time passed after the silence that the barbarians regressed (it took the CRON population 130-300 years to regress to the state we see them in in Might and Magic II). Or it could be that the barbarians are an earlier seed of the Ancients.

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Re: Nitpicking About the Plot and Timeline

Unread postby Avonu » 01 Oct 2012, 17:06

Amehmet wrote:Hello! I've wasted a good part of my youth on the HoMM series, especially the third sequel. Being interested in plot and lore, I've been paying attention to details, which has led to many questions throughout the years. Of course, the answer to some of them concerning Heroes Chronicles and The Shadow of Death (such as how there are heroes whose biographies mention The Restoration of Erathia-era events, characters and states ;|) is simply "the developers didn't care enough"
Two things first:
1. Forge - it was futuristic caste with some mechanical units and sci-fi elements that was supposed to tie-in HoMM and MM games. Long story short - it was cancelled and all future sci-fi elements from any HoMM game were erased (which were basics for MM games and their plots). So any new HoMM game would not have any mention about Kreegan-Ancients war.

2. Greg Fulton departed after Forge was cancelled (there was other reasons for that too). As he was one of the persons responsible for lore and game plots, when he has gone, no one know what exactly is going in games.


Amehmet wrote:I'll start with the chronologically earliest point -- Warlords of the Wasteland, the first instalment of Heroes Chronicles; Bracaduun, Jarg and Tarnum. How do they all fit into the M&M timeline? I got the impression that WotW took place a very long time before HoMM 3, yet the barbarians had already been living their pristine pastoral lives in their homelands since times immemorial. Tarnum mentions Jarg's conquest, which allegedly happened a long time before his own. However, Restoration of Erathia begins only 1164 years after the Silence (the loss of contact between the Ancients, the colonisers of Colony -- the planet the first three parts of HoMM take place on, and the inhabitants of Colony). A fan-made timeline thus places Jarg's conquest at around 0-100 AS and Tarnum's exploits at ca. 100-200 AS, and this just doesn't make sense to me. I assume that all the knowledge and technology of the Ancients, a space-travelling civilisation, must have still been present when the Silence occurred. Yet Tarnum's people (only 100-200 years afterwards) don't seem to have remembrance of anything aside from their simple tribal society. Is it possible that the barbarians are natives, while the wizards of Bracaduun are colonisers, hence their superior technology? But how come they speak the same language? ;| (Okay, it's probably better not to think too much about the languages in a fantasy or sci-fi setting.) Or maybe both sides could be natives? I doubt that...
Tarnum in HoMMIV says he is c.a. 1000 years old. HIV takes place some years after 1175 AS (Reckoning from HIV into) so you now guess, when WotW starts.

Last of the Heavenly Forges (yes, these Forges from above) stopped working in year 113 AS, so after that point no Ancients' technologhy was not available and not working anymore.
Many more broke in first centaury after Silence and local population rebelled and overthrew Colonial Goverment as a result. Then they became falling into barbarism.

100 years is enough to turn into barbarism (even less I guess) and before Tarnum, there was Jarg. Erasing memories of past victories is possible in one generation (ca. 20-25 years), especially if you eliminate scholars. 50 years between Jarg dead and Tarnum birth seems resonable but could be longer of course.

Barbaians are not native to Enroth. Actually no race is. All of races (Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Goblins and so on) arrived on Enroth via VARN spaceship before Silence but after Kreegan started attacing Ancients colonies.
First Elves settled on ANtagarich (HoMM3 continent) before Silence.

Wizards indeed could have some remains of working Ancients' technology but Tarnum's stories were created after sci-fi elements were ban from HoMM games, so I don't think it is true.

GreatEmerald wrote:First off, the HoMM3 planet is "The planet of Enroth".
Planet is named Enroth :P
World of Enroth was also used as name for this... world.
GreatEmerald wrote:In my opinion, WotW does indeed happen a bit after the Silence. Bracaduun is the local colonial government
As I said above, there is no one word about sci-fi elements. This theory could be true of course but there is no proof for that.

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Re: Nitpicking About the Plot and Timeline

Unread postby GreatEmerald » 01 Oct 2012, 18:16

Avonu wrote:Barbaians are not native to Enroth. Actually no race is. All of races (Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Goblins and so on) arrived on Enroth via VARN spaceship before Silence but after Kreegan started attacing Ancients colonies.
Hmm? How would you tell that? Axeoth had native inhabitants, so why not Enroth?
Avonu wrote:Planet is named Enroth :P
World of Enroth was also used as name for this... world.
That was only for emphasis, to contrast with "The continent of Enroth". Writing it as ""The panet of "Enroth""" would just be silly from punctuation point of view :P
Avonu wrote:As I said above, there is no one word about sci-fi elements. This theory could be true of course but there is no proof for that.
And like I said, this is my opinion.

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Re: Nitpicking About the Plot and Timeline

Unread postby Avonu » 01 Oct 2012, 18:38

GreatEmerald wrote:
Avonu wrote:Barbaians are not native to Enroth. Actually no race is. All of races (Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Goblins and so on) arrived on Enroth via VARN spaceship before Silence but after Kreegan started attacing Ancients colonies.
Hmm? How would you tell that? Axeoth had native inhabitants, so why not Enroth?
The Crossing wrote:The legend of the Crossing is more than a thousand years old, but that doesn't stop people from repeating it from time to time. The legend says that we all, and that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins, came from the same place on a great ship that carried us across the void between the stars.
"With painstaking care, you are able to decipher the message of the hieroglyphs:
Though the Crossing of the Void be a long and arduous journey, the land you find at the end will be sweet and unspoiled by ancestors or the Enemy. Take heart that your children's children will live in a perfect world free of war, free of famine, and free of fear. Remember your sacred duty to care for the Ship on her long Voyage and ensure her safe arrival in the Promised Land. Tend well the Guardian and house it securely away from the ship lest both be lost in a single misfortune."

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 01 Oct 2012, 21:23

Well, I suppose that is good enough. I thought I'd ask you about how there are "native" devils, but then it is more than likely that they too came with the others, as they exist on nacelles just as well.

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Unread postby Amehmet » 03 Oct 2012, 18:33

GreatEmerald wrote:First off, the HoMM3 planet is "The planet of Enroth".
Very well, Colony is the name that the Ancients originally gave to the planet -- only mentioned as such, I guess then.
Avonu wrote:Two things first:
1. Forge - it was futuristic caste with some mechanical units and sci-fi elements that was supposed to tie-in HoMM and MM games. Long story short - it was cancelled and all future sci-fi elements from any HoMM game were erased (which were basics for MM games and their plots). So any new HoMM game would not have any mention about Kreegan-Ancients war.
Yes, I know -- the plot of Armageddon's Blade was to take that direction and Forge was to be the ninth town type, but fans protested to this, so the Kreegans stood in as the main villains and Conflux became the new town instead. However, HoMM didn't turn into a vanilla medieval fantasy discontinuous with the rest of M&M, it's just that the developers decided they wouldn't make the sci-fi elements apparent to players unaware of them. For example, Kreegans were still aliens who landed on Enroth with their spaceship, although primitive Enrothians considered them to have fallen from the sky on a shooting star as a punishment from their gods -- which is the only explanation we get in HoMM.
2. Greg Fulton departed after Forge was cancelled (there was other reasons for that too). As he was one of the persons responsible for lore and game plots, when he has gone, no one know what exactly is going in games.
I feared something like that had happened.
Tarnum in HoMMIV says he is c.a. 1000 years old. HIV takes place some years after 1175 AS (Reckoning from HIV into) so you now guess, when WotW starts.
Yes, that's right! I knew there was some proof WotW couldn't have taken place 500 or so years after the Silence, but couldn't remember what exactly it was. ;)
100 years is enough to turn into barbarism (even less I guess) and before Tarnum, there was Jarg. Erasing memories of past victories is possible in one generation (ca. 20-25 years), especially if you eliminate scholars. 50 years between Jarg dead and Tarnum birth seems resonable but could be longer of course.
That's the part I find a bit wobbly. Maybe the Bracaduunians did some kind of brainwashing to barbarians and the definitely short lifespans certainly helped, but it just seems like a short time to me. The oral historians were outlawed, true, but how did they manage to stop all people from sharing stories with their children? Jarg is mostly regarded as a myth in Tarnum's youth. Now, the end of World War II is an example of an event that took place slightly less than 50 years before my birth -- and my grandparents actually lived through the war. Does it seem plausible there was nobody alive at or shortly after Jarg's death 50 years later?

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 04 Oct 2012, 15:57

Amehmet wrote:Very well, Colony is the name that the Ancients originally gave to the planet -- only mentioned as such, I guess then.
Nope. That word was never mentioned in any of the games. Ever.

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Unread postby Amehmet » 04 Oct 2012, 16:41

Er, not even in the manuals? There definitely are sources on the Internet that call the planet that way.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 04 Oct 2012, 16:51

It's a (discredited) fan name. Completely unofficial.

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Unread postby Amehmet » 04 Oct 2012, 17:06

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Fan sources say that "Colony" is an abbreviation of "Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder" -- is the full name at least official or is it all fan-made?

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Unread postby Marzhin » 04 Oct 2012, 20:11

Amehmet wrote:Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Fan sources say that "Colony" is an abbreviation of "Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder" -- is the full name at least official or is it all fan-made?
I think that came from the Might & Magic Tribute fan-project. It's a pretty good one though :)

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Unread postby Korbac » 05 Oct 2012, 01:19

However, Restoration of Erathia begins only 1164 years after the Silence (the loss of contact between the Ancients, the colonisers of Colony -- the planet the first three parts of HoMM take place on, and the inhabitants of Colony).
Where are you getting all these dates? In which games were they mentioned ? Are these dates from the M&M RPG series ? (I've never completed any of them)

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 05 Oct 2012, 04:03

Amehmet wrote:Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Fan sources say that "Colony" is an abbreviation of "Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder" -- is the full name at least official or is it all fan-made?
All fan-made.

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Unread postby Avonu » 05 Oct 2012, 15:23

Korbac wrote:
However, Restoration of Erathia begins only 1164 years after the Silence (the loss of contact between the Ancients, the colonisers of Colony -- the planet the first three parts of HoMM take place on, and the inhabitants of Colony).
Where are you getting all these dates? In which games were they mentioned ? Are these dates from the M&M RPG series ? (I've never completed any of them)
First, H3:RoE starts in early 1165 AS.

Second, yes there are dates mentioned in MM6, which takes place in same time as RoE.

Third, in MM7 we have exactly when RoE has finished - 5th August 1167.

And Fourth - Enroth as planet name was used as early as in MM6 manual. In MM8 it was confimed that this is planet name - both outside and in game.
The oral historians were outlawed, true, but how did they manage to stop all people from sharing stories with their children? Jarg is mostly regarded as a myth in Tarnum's youth.
Tarnum even didn't know about Jorg before he met one of barbarian bards. Wizard-Kings were doing what they could to eradicate Jarg from history, including killing all people who may told about him to yonger generations of barbarians.

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Unread postby Korbac » 05 Oct 2012, 16:05

Avonu wrote: Second, yes there are dates mentioned in MM6, which takes place in same time as RoE.
Thanks for the answer. Got to find time to play the M&M RPG's someday :)

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Unread postby Amehmet » 07 Oct 2012, 19:41

Korbac wrote:Where are you getting all these dates? In which games were they mentioned ? Are these dates from the M&M RPG series ? (I've never completed any of them)
Unfortunately, I've never completed any of the M&M RPGs either, so I'm getting the dates from the Internet. However, I can think of one case of a year being mentioned in HoMM 3 -- Xarfax's biography says he was captured by the Kreegans in 1162 AS. ;)
Avonu wrote:Tarnum even didn't know about Jorg before he met one of barbarian bards. Wizard-Kings were doing what they could to eradicate Jarg from history, including killing all people who may told about him to yonger generations of barbarians.
You're right, it's himself being able to stand up to the wizards that Tarnum had dismissed as a childish fantasy before meeting the bard. I thought it was the tale about one barbarian having done it already. Still, that doesn't make the whole case any more believable for me. My point is that the Wizard-Kings should have killed a whole generation to stop the story from spreading, it's not as if the knowledge of Jarg's exploits had been limited to a small circle of people. But I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll stop now. I'll just have to settle that I don't find the plot to be most convincing. :)

___

Anyway, another chapter of Heroes Chronicles that I'm not sure where to squeeze into the timeline is Clash of the Dragons. There we have Mutare the Dragon Queen of Nighon, a king of Erathia, Kreegans and Gelu together. Now, we should think that Mutare's coming to power ("Dragon's Blood" campaign) happens roughly at the same time as the main campaign of Armageddon's Blade because "Playing With Fire" (Adrienne the Fire Witch's campaign) mentions both that Mutare is rising to power in Nighon and that Erathia can't attend to the undead trouble in the west of the country as it's already waging a war in the east (obviously referring to the main plot). Therefore, CoD should take place some time afer AB.
However, Queen Catherine & co. had supposedly annihilated the state of Eeofol and committed a genocide upon Kreegans by the end of Armageddon's Blade, yet they're quite numerous in CoD. True enough, there's no mention of Eeofol, Kreegans are regarded only as "Devils and Demons" under Mutare's command. Moreover, when Tarnum gets across the sea in the final scenario, supposably to the island of Nighon, he finds only Infernos. Could all those Kreegans be the "few surviving clans" of Eeofol, accepted into Nighon? Or could Nighon have been inhabited by some Kreegans all along, even before the fall of Eeofol?
Either way, perhaps even more importantly, could Erathia really have chosen a new king in such a short time (there's only a few years between the end of AB and the Reckoning)?
Assuming the mentioning of Mutare in Playing With Fire was a mistake and that both Dragon's Blood and Clash of the Dragons take place all the way before Restoration of Erathia doesn't make too much sense either. We'd indeed have Nicolas Gryphonheart as the King of Erathia and Kreegans as Mutare's allies explained. But there's mention of Gelu as an already accomplished commander, so CoD probably doesn't happen before the beginning of the Shadow of Death. And there are several years at most between the beginning of SoD and the beginning of RoE. Could Nighon really have so much success in invading Erathia like it did in RoE such a short time after failing at it?

Be that as it may, I'm interested in what Nighon is like as well. It obviously has some land on mainland Antagarich too. I originally thought they were represented by the underground Dungeon because RoE takes place in Erathia and its immediate surroundings and it's through underground tunnels that they appear in the middle of Erathia. However, Dragon Blood suggests that most, if not all, inhabitants of Nighon live underground. The little parts that we see of its surface in HoMM are rough and mostly volcanic -- maybe inhabited by Kreegans (though I don't think that's the case)?
Last edited by Amehmet on 07 Oct 2012, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Korbac » 07 Oct 2012, 21:29

However, Queen Catherine & co. had supposedly annihilated the state of Eofol and committed a genocide upon Kreegans by the end of Armageddon's Blade, yet they're quite numerous in CoD.
Maybe they could not wipe out all of them and some of them indeed fled to Nighon. Besides, there are still demons and devils in Heroes 4, so they have indeed survived.
The little parts that we see of its surface in HoMM are rough and mostly volcanic -- maybe inhabited by Kreegans (though I don't think that's the case)?
It doesn't look very volcanic to me.

Image

I like to think about Antagarich as a really big place, so I kinda assume that there may be small towns of all alignments scattered around. Therefore Inferno towns may have been in Nighon all along. Hell, they could have been in Bracada (like near a volcano) or underground.

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Unread postby Amehmet » 07 Oct 2012, 23:38

Korbac wrote:Maybe they could not wipe out all of them and some of them indeed fled to Nighon. Besides, there are still demons and devils in Heroes 4, so they have indeed survived.
Yes, but Catherine gives the impression that not too many of them could have survived, and there's a lot of them in Clash of the Dragons. As far as I understood, demons and devils in Heroes 4 are refugees from all the planet of Enroth, and they're so weak that they've been forced into a union with the necromancers, where necromancers have the main word. Though then again, we only see countries of Antagarich being mentioned by characters from Heroes 4, so maybe the portals appeared only there or the portals elsewhere in Enroth led somewhere else...?
It doesn't look very volcanic to me.
You're right, it doesn't on that map. But take a look at this game map (from Tunnels and Troglodytes, the final scenario of the campaign Liberation from RoE) or this one (supposing that's actually Nighon because "crossing the sea" is mentioned, so I don't know what else it could be, from the homonymous final scenario of Clash of Dragons).
I like to think about Antagarich as a really big place, so I kinda assume that there may be small towns of all alignments scattered around. Therefore Inferno towns may have been in Nighon all along. Hell, they could have been in Bracada (like near a volcano) or underground.
The thing is, the Kreegans arrived in Enroth only a few years before RoE -- supposedly in January of 1162, but I don't guarantee about the date -- so they didn't have that much time to spread around. Terrain isn't a problem for that, they're allegedly able to summon a volcano (or so it's told in A Devilish Plan, the first scenario of Dungeons and Devils). ;) But anyway, it seems that there are many Inferno towns in Nighon during CoD.

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Unread postby Korbac » 08 Oct 2012, 15:58

Amehmet wrote: But anyway, it seems that there are many Inferno towns in Nighon during CoD.
I don't see a problem with that. How many are there? 20? 50? Even if it was a 100 inferno towns, it wouldn't be that many on a global scale.


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