Is Torosar good?

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pikeman93
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Is Torosar good?

Postby pikeman93 » Sep 17 2011, 14:22

I remember UndeadHalfOrc made a poll for the best alchemist, and Torosar was voted as the worst one.


However, after trying out all the heroes, I found out that Torosar may be the best at clearing neutral stacks. He starts out with Tactics, a secondary skill that alchemists VERY rarely get, and tactics seem to help immensely. Witch huts, scholars, are random, and there's an even lower probability to get tactics there. I find that tactics is the only way to get obsidian gargoyles or master genies on the other side of the map in one turn without having a stack of grand elves or arch magi firing at your master gremlins.

I tried other heroes - Solmyr, Neela, Rissa, Cyra, Theodorus; none of them can save your master gremlins as well as Torosar can. An alternative could be naga queens + obsidian gargoyles, but facing a stack of i.e. crusaders or grand elves can spell death to one of your naga queens and you don't want to lose a single one.

However, Torosar has the useless ballista specialty, which is probably the worst one of all the heroes. So after when all the stacks are cleared, Torosar becomes very inferior.

So... is Torosar worth picking as your primary hero? Thanks.

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Postby Tress » Sep 17 2011, 15:40

Doubt it.
Mysticism is relatively bad skill, and ballista specialty aint good either.
That leaves tactics - which is good but I dont believe it's that good. Also he doesnt start with artillery so his ballista unit and spec is sort of waste.
I much rather would prefer Neela from alchemists as armorer spec is extremely powerful, by level 20 you would take 1/3 less damage just because she's in head of army

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 18 2011, 14:36

I'm always wary of the "this hero is tremendous at level 20" argument. Unless it's a large and packed map, getting a hero to level 20 is half the game if not more. I'd rather have a hero who is strong from levels 1-10; level 20 can fend for itself.
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Postby Tress » Sep 18 2011, 19:20

Well of course it 's somewhat far fetched argument that works well in campaign maps, but still, thats to show that by lvl 20 it's 100% extra effect to already good skill. Well by level 10 its extra 8% to damage reduction, which isnt that small of a number.
Still if it goes down to poor artillery skill vs armorer I guess there isnt much thoughts. From alchemists if you dont want to take unit specialist, then Neele is pretty much only decent choice. I am not huge homm specialist but I always had feeling that tower had raw end of deal in hero department. They have somewhat OP Solmyr(which is often disputed, since CL is extremely expensive) and Cyra(though I personally dislike diplomacy sine it's somewhat OP and I just dislike it's mechanic in general) and Neela in alchemist department. For some reason they even dont have gremlin spec(guess would be op if he would start with huge gremlin army like other lvl 1 specialists). Most of them start with mysticism or scholar, both of which are far from popular skill choices.

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Re: Is Torosar good?

Postby Pol » Sep 18 2011, 20:10

pikeman93 wrote:So... is Torosar worth picking as your primary hero? Thanks.


That is, questionable.

For a plus side: He can clear starting area very fast. He need logistic and ballista and it's typical Might Hero.

Minus: Not exactly minus. Later he's simply normal primary hero. But some skills are wasted in his case so he will not be the best in every scenario.
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Postby Salamandre » Sep 18 2011, 20:54

Bandobras Took wrote:I'm always wary of the "this hero is tremendous at level 20" argument. Unless it's a large and packed map, getting a hero to level 20 is half the game if not more. I'd rather have a hero who is strong from levels 1-10; level 20 can fend for itself.



It's more about winning end battles, where your hero will be probably >20. if you select Torosar, the early game will be easier for you, but with Neela, your chances to win the game are higher. That's why in MP none will choose Torosar over Neela.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 18 2011, 22:59

So in MP there are no maps where better early clearing leads to a superior end game? Where getting resources and creature dwellings faster in week one and two mean you're in a better position army-wise when you actually manage to hit level 20?

A level 20 Neela may have a higher chance to win a given battle. The question is whether a different hero would arrive there with a superior force.
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Postby pikeman93 » Sep 19 2011, 1:07

Yea tower heroes kind of suck. None of the magic heroes have intelligence or sorcery specialities, and almost all alchemists have creature specialities as well as one bad skill. Spell specialties can only do so much.

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Postby Salamandre » Sep 19 2011, 1:38

Bandobras, I believe Torosar can win against Neela if well played on his side. But if you talk about better early game, then how early? Because Torosar tactics and balista (if any) give him a very short advantage, a few days maximum. Probably 2-3 extra levels, but Neela will catch them as soon as her specialty starts to shine. Now, if instead Torosar, it was Kyreee then the advantage will be longer and more significant.

Those "armorer" specialists are overpowered, in my time we played with everything, but now I am really amazed to see MP leagues banning almost everything but never armorer specialists.

And they break the game if at big level, not logistic, conflux or whatever. A level 30-40 Neela is just like having 3 times more army against you.

As general rule, a MP player will keep recruiting until he gets a barb/beastmaster or in worst case a knight or ranger (if he did not find an armorer specialist). He will think more at primary skills leveling than at early helping specialties.

It seems that magic heros never had their chance in MP. 3DO should have given them much more advantages, as casting twice or be the only one capable to master schools. Even both, why not.

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Postby pikeman93 » Sep 19 2011, 16:08

But for skill specialties, the maximum you can get is 100%, no? So if one has expert armourer (15%) and has a specialty on it, it rises to only 30%. That's only a 15% difference.


See this is why I'd rather pick Alkin over Tazar. Tazar at a same level have units that take hits 15% better, but Alkin starts with offense (something that beastmasters have difficulty getting) and that +1 speed on master gorgons can make a huge difference.

Same thing with Ivor vs. Mephala

But back OT: In 130% maps with enough resources, I often scout second week with naga queens. I find that Fafner's specialty is valuable here - 8 speed naga queens allows them to outspeed practically every shooter neutral stacks except cyclops kings and titans. Torosar is better if you couldn't get naga queens on the second week.

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Postby Warmonger » Sep 19 2011, 16:37

But for skill specialties, the maximum you can get is 100%, no? So if one has expert armourer (15%) and has a specialty on it, it rises to only 30%. That's only a 15% difference

They are not capped by any means. With high enough level you cna make these heroes completely invincible.

The trick on rich maps is to capture high level dwellings and banks as soon as possible. Certainly tactics help against otherwise deadly stacks, but how much? Would you tank a horde of Grand Elves with Torosar and loose the fight with Neela? What forces do you need to gather beforehand and what treasure could you possibly get?
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Postby Korbac » Sep 19 2011, 19:54

Warmonger wrote:
But for skill specialties, the maximum you can get is 100%, no? So if one has expert armourer (15%) and has a specialty on it, it rises to only 30%. That's only a 15% difference

They are not capped by any means. With high enough level you cna make these heroes completely invincible.



As far as I recall the maximum damage reduction by any means is capped at 70%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Postby Salamandre » Sep 19 2011, 20:20

The minimum damage an armorer specialist can take is 1. The specialty is not capped, after level 100 you will get the minimum damage. Now change the pikeman to a wraith and win this battle (after probably 1000 hours)

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Postby GreatEmerald » Sep 19 2011, 20:28

:rofl:
But that is WoG, so it's not necessarily how it works in SoD (Experience 1000, really? :P ).

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Postby Salamandre » Sep 20 2011, 4:11

WoG does not change Heroes mechanics, I hope you know that.

In SOD you can go up to 114 level (in fact you can go up to 6424 level! by regular events), and a Tazar at 88 or 100 level will receive under 10 HP damage from any force. Here WoG was used only to demonstrate that armorer specialty has no cap. It goes up to 100%, no matter the version used.

SOD hero
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No cheats used, just the right sequence of experience giving events:
99999999 start exp hero, then:
20x99999999 exp events + 1x47293160 exp event.

Now you can test this on Neela, Tazar and Mephala and check armorer cap. In SOD.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 20 2011, 4:41

Out of curiosity, how much gold was Lord Haart generating with his Estates skill?
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Postby Salamandre » Sep 20 2011, 5:11

Estates has no cap neither.
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http://www.maps4heroes.com/forum/opinio ... 869&game=3

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Postby Warmonger » Sep 20 2011, 6:01

Korbac wrote:
Warmonger wrote:
But for skill specialties, the maximum you can get is 100%, no? So if one has expert armourer (15%) and has a specialty on it, it rises to only 30%. That's only a 15% difference

They are not capped by any means. With high enough level you cna make these heroes completely invincible.



As far as I recall the maximum damage reduction by any means is capped at 70%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's only reduction by defense. It doesn't include Armorer or Shield effect.
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Postby GreatEmerald » Sep 20 2011, 7:55

Salamandre wrote:WoG does not change Heroes mechanics, I hope you know that.


It can change them. Stack experience is a good example.

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Postby Salamandre » Sep 20 2011, 9:26

Umm, no. Same mechanics are used, whether stack exp is disabled or enabled. Basically you give an ability, then this ability is processed in exact Heroes mechanics. By mechanics I mean how a hero is leveling, how damage is inflicted, how defense works, the spells system, how objects are visited etcetera. That's why we can "translate" a SOD map to WoG without losing or changing anything, only gaining extra info as duration of spells, or disable the annoying weekly growth.


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