Should grand elves be nerfed?

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pikeman93
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Should grand elves be nerfed?

Postby pikeman93 » Aug 29 2011, 11:52

Maybe I'm biased here because the last thing I want is a pack of grand elves guarding a gem pond in case I'm playing Tower, but seriously, I think they're too overpowered. At high enough number they could do as much damage as a level 7 unit, and if you have dendroids and unicorns beside them the only way to even scratch them is for the opponent to use another archer unit.

They dominate early game (you can take gold mines or naga banks earlier than most towns), and late game, and 225/unit is cheaper than freaking wraiths. I think they should be nerfed, like a slight attack boost, but attacking once per turn instead of twice (like a buffed up lizardmen).

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Postby Tress » Aug 29 2011, 12:32

Yes they are extremely powerful unit, but you cant really evaluate single unit out of context. For one you must take into account fact that it's only shooter for rampart(to compare with towers 3 shooters), second is that second tier unit is very impractical to use due to it's speed so opening tactics are solely based on elves.
All in all you must take into account whole faction powers and weaknesses not just one aspect(except conflux which is OP as hell).
For example zombies and wraiths are very weak and impractical units, but that doesn't make necropolis weak(but perhaps it would add to OPness if they would be any good).
Also in hero v hero scenarios, putting all gamble on elves is dangerous due to various spells like forgetfulness or blind, air shield and this list can go on, not to mention fact that they are quite squishy(especially for late game context). And with almost 100% certainty, any hero will have spell to mitigate one units power(curse to begin with)

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Postby pikeman93 » Aug 30 2011, 2:18

^^Yeah, fair enough.

You're right that conflux is broken. Phoenix = instant armageddon FTW. Also, now that I think about it, vampire lords are even more broken than grand elves. Resurrection ability makes its total # of units irrelevant because you can never whittle down its numbers since they can gain them right back. Seriously once you have them, you never have to worry about neutral stacks, creature banks, or even dragon utopias. Get all these money from creature banks to make more VL's!

Either get rid of their no retaliation, or make their resurrection half as effective.

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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Sep 6 2011, 3:55

Not really overpowered I think.

Almost all ranged units have exceptional weakness when they're engaging melee combat or being attacked with magic. Thus this be only matter of how you approach the problem. If you're gonna take on those elves just like you're fighting dwarves, then you're of course, be in trouble. Just do what must be done against ranged units, then it's OK.

This be same as vampires as well. Just remember the cost of making them is not all that cheap. It is, of course, if you play where there be plenty gems and crystal everywhere. But if you play with nothing and the resources are sparsely spread over large area, then trying to make them is more problematic. And there be chance you got them and nothing else. Depending on who you're against, you might also find some units of the same level being stronger when used cleverly.

One thing you might want to consider about Conflux is, this town was introduced to defeat the hordes of Inferno in Armageddon's Blade campaign. This be why it is so specific. It is not unbeatable though.

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Postby cjlee » Sep 10 2011, 11:12

Good observation. Conflux was created last moment as a line up more than 10 years ago, and its creation came after a matter of deep controversy within the heroes community.

Originally 3DO planned a sci-fi like expansion called the Forge (involving a faction of dwarves and their technology I think) and had everything ready for the Forge. When news leaked out on the old Astrawizards.com site, some people were very angry that their favorite game was turning sci-fi. Death threats, suicide threats, all manner of nonsense ensured. Eventually 3DO and the development team's feelings were very hurt and they withdrew the Forge. But since the expansion was already budgeted for, they hastily created a last minute faction. That's why Conflux came into being with only 3 original units.

Because Conflux was mainly created to support a storyline 3DO created last moment, they aren't quite balanced. 3 of their units are intended to survive Armageddon. Phoenix has to be faster than Archdevil even on Archdevil's soil with a +2 cape of velocity, or even when suffering a -3 standard slow (i.e. must have speed 21). Or else, storyline wise, you cannot face a Xarfax (storyline hero) who has stats in the 40s on his home territory, specializes in devils, and wielding the blade.

Phoenix must survive a -3 slow and remain faster than Archdevil. That's why Phoenix is unnecessarily fast. Speed of 17 already can hit any square on the board; Speed of 18 can land on any square. So why do you need speed of 21? Speed of 19 is already enough if you just want Phoenix to be fastest. But up against Armageddon's Blade, you have No Defenses. One side is vulnerable to a 3k damage armageddon, the other side totally immune.

Of course, Armageddon's Blade is quite unbalanced to begin with. It is such a ridiculously overpowered item that the owner is essentially the owner of The Armor of Total Protection and the Sword of Utter Destruction, +100 attack + 100 defense. It was really the Blade to End All Days, so powerful that you can't really script a good game around it.

As you can see, it has been over 10 years since Armageddon's blade came out - but do you see any mapmakers give you the blade? It is too powerful to be used in any map!

BoardGuest808888 wrote:One thing you might want to consider about Conflux is, this town was introduced to defeat the hordes of Inferno in Armageddon's Blade campaign. This be why it is so specific. It is not unbeatable though.

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 10 2011, 13:36

One slight correction -- the Forge was intended as a continuation of the "Evil" ending from Might and Magic VII. Not Dwarven technology.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Sep 10 2011, 21:14

Huh, that's a good point. I never really thought about why the units were made like that. It makes sense now.

AB may be overpowered, but it sure is fun to use. Would be interesting if you could use the item only temporarily, so it would be something like an Invincibility Star - plow through all the enemies you can and then hope they don't get it afterwards.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 10 2011, 23:20

I always thought Armageddon's Blade should have been turned into a combo artifact in Shadow of Death; it isn't that much more overpowered than the Wizard's Well, and much more difficult to assemble.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby Warmonger » Sep 11 2011, 6:06

Bandobras Took wrote:I always thought Armageddon's Blade should have been turned into a combo artifact in Shadow of Death; it isn't that much more overpowered than the Wizard's Well, and much more difficult to assemble.

This! You inspired me, man.
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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Sep 11 2011, 6:44

Bandobras Took wrote:One slight correction -- the Forge was intended as a continuation of the "Evil" ending from Might and Magic VII. Not Dwarven technology.


He he heh back then, dwarves were another bunch of tree-huggers, Rampart style....

Bandobras Took wrote:I always thought Armageddon's Blade should have been turned into a combo artifact in Shadow of Death; it isn't that much more overpowered than the Wizard's Well, and much more difficult to assemble.


Yeah, whenever I made H 3 maps, I always placed AB in some remote, unreachable places... just to tick the bones. Also it be good for sight, with the gleams and all.

GreatEmerald wrote:Huh, that's a good point. I never really thought about why the units were made like that. It makes sense now.



Also with superior creatures growth and leveling. This be only town without need to creep normally. You start with like, a lvl 4 creatures instead of lvl 1 - 3 ones. In AB campaign, the need for creeping no longer was there.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Sep 11 2011, 8:23

Bandobras Took wrote:I always thought Armageddon's Blade should have been turned into a combo artifact in Shadow of Death; it isn't that much more overpowered than the Wizard's Well, and much more difficult to assemble.


That too. Before I really knew what the artifact was, I thought you could in fact assemble it (it glitters on the map similarly to the assembled artifacts).


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