creature dwellings or economy buildings on week 1?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

creature dwellings or economy buildings on week 1?

creature dwellings
6
30%
economy buildings
14
70%
 
Total votes: 20

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Kristo
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Unread postby Kristo » 21 Jul 2011, 21:35

You need something besides Grand Elves in a creeping army and Centaur Captains are fast enough to not slow your army down. The Grand Elves will do most (if not all) of the work anyway.
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Unread postby Salamandre » 22 Jul 2011, 01:48

The centaurs are awesome for protecting the elves, due to their high speed and 2 hex size. Anyway, you have nothing but them at start, I don't think anyone thinks going out with dwarfs.

Thunderbirds are just perfect for first and second week, as well as manticores or sultans. After that, you need level 7. The TB are the best mostly because you get them for almost nothing, while manti and sultans are a bankrupt early game. But they balanced it quite well, by raising ridiculously high the price of cyclops.

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GreatEmerald
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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 22 Jul 2011, 09:59

I see... Speaking of hero movement speed on the adventure map, how is it determined? I know that in HoMM4 there are two different stats for that, so it's easy to tell how to speed your troops up, but less so in HoMM3.

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Kristo
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Unread postby Kristo » 22 Jul 2011, 11:30

I'm not sure of the exact formula, but it's based on the slowest creature in your army. That's why Rampart players leave the Dwarves at home when creeping (or always :-D), for example.
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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 22 Jul 2011, 12:09

Lol Centaur Warchief :D

Anyway what Salamandre said. Evil Eyes over Medusae mainly because (iirc) they're easier to get to and they suffice, although I'll say as well that Dungeon isn't a race I have much experience with either. Basiliks are necessary because they're one of Fortress's few good units. Thunderbirds are the default units because they're easy to get and they deal good damage. As level 5 units they don't die easily either. Inferno absolutely should go for Sultans. 5 Sultans or 6 Sultans, even if you bankrupt yourself for it you can afford to not hire creatures for the rest of the 2nd week (mostly anyway) so you've got gold to spare. An army of only Sultans travels across the adventure map fast, too.[/url]
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Qurqirish Dragon
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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 22 Jul 2011, 13:23

Banedon wrote: Anyway what Salamandre said. Evil Eyes over Medusae mainly because (iirc) they're easier to get to and they suffice, although I'll say as well that Dungeon isn't a race I have much experience with either.
Actually medusa are much better, but they also have a very low growth rate (I think a base of 4?) so they are more needed to start growing the number available earlier, as opposed to early-game creeping.
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GreatEmerald
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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 22 Jul 2011, 13:57

About Fortress, why not Wyverns? Their dwelling is accessible very early on and they are decent, fast troops.

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Salamandre
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Unread postby Salamandre » 22 Jul 2011, 14:47

Absolutely, they are the first goal. Day 2 you can have them, and you need it, because the shooters are a joke.
GreatEmerald wrote:I see... Speaking of hero movement speed on the adventure map, how is it determined? I know that in HoMM4 there are two different stats for that, so it's easy to tell how to speed your troops up, but less so in HoMM3.

Every hero has a daily base movement of 15 tiles.

The first affecting criterion is the speed of the slowest unit in his army.
The formula looks like this:

Slowest speed is 1-4 ---> no extra tile
Slowest speed is 5 ---> 1 extra tile
Slowest speed is 6-7 ---> 2 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 8 ---> 3 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 9-10 ---> 4 extra tiles
Slowest speed is 11 or more ---> 5 extra tiles

If your hero carries the "equestrian´s gloves", he gets a bonus of 3 tiles.
If your hero has the "boots of speed" on, he gets a bonus of 6 tiles
If your hero has visited the stables, he gets a bonus of 4 tiles

That means in practice, a hero with a pikeman in his army has 15 movement points, another one with only angels has 20. There are others considerations as the terrain, we all know that one hero with an archangel will be slower than one with a gnoll on swamp if without pathfinding.

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Banedon
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Unread postby Banedon » 22 Jul 2011, 16:55

Salamandre wrote:Absolutely, they are the first goal. Day 2 you can have them, and you need it, because the shooters are a joke.
I actually remember that to be an inferior strategy, because Wyverns can't carry a Fortress army the way Thunderbirds / Efreet Sultans can. They tend to die before they can kill neutrals. iirc the resource investment is heavy as well, and Fortress also needs to stockpile Gorgons ASAP.

And I knew my memory is somewhat faulty with Medusae :)
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Salamandre
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Unread postby Salamandre » 22 Jul 2011, 17:45

I think we don't have the choice, the wiverns can be gathered fast, and they are the first serious monster to fight with early. They also are good because on most MP templates and even regular, there are tons of dragon hives and often you end with hundred of them. Of course the gorgons are among the best monsters in game, but their strength makes sense in big battles, not in early development, where loosing them to shooters is painful.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 27 Jul 2011, 09:09

GreatEmerald wrote:This poll is missing the "depends on the map" choice.
This be the most true
Bersaglio wrote:
Banedon wrote: Rampart: ... + Centaur Warchiefs
No such creatures exist in the game. Only Centaur Captains. Try to play the game first.
I bet Banedon already played the game more than you did.

For choice, I also prefer to got dwelling building first, at least until 4th or 5th tier (higher map difficulty of course got lower tier)

For Fortress, the better thing for creeping in first 2-3 weeks is using just Gnoll Marauders and Lizard Warrior. No sense wasting higher tier monsters on creeps (this is of course, unless you're playing something like Barbarian's Breakout and other rush maps).

For Stronghold, Rocs (and upgrade) is very good since you got them almost immediately.

For Inferno, just dig everything with demons and magogs.

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Bandobras Took
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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 08 Sep 2011, 14:34

What difficulty level are people assuming in this poll?

I suppose if you're lucky enough to have piles of gold everywhere near your starting town, creatures make sense . . .
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 11 Sep 2011, 07:25

Yeah. That's the idea :D

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Korbac
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Unread postby Korbac » 11 Sep 2011, 17:53

Imho, if you play Fortress it's safe to go for dragonflies and then add some basilisks in week 2 only if you need them.

I've found that Wyverns eat up a lot of wood, which is the most important resource for the Fortress, but depending on the map it may be a good strategy as well.

Actually that's the whole beauty of Heroes 3. There are different ways you can develop your Kingdom and it all depends on the map and the difficulty you are playing. You just need to look at the map carefully and plan ahead. But as a rule:
Week 1: get the key creature dwelling and a city hall if possible
Week 2: hire the key creatures and then act according to the circumstances

Jolly Joker explains this really well in his guides.

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Unread postby BoardGuest808888 » 17 Sep 2011, 06:14

Well, uh... if u just hire the key creature, then how be u act according to the circumstances ?

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Korbac
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Unread postby Korbac » 17 Sep 2011, 10:55

BoardGuest808888 wrote:Well, uh... if u just hire the key creature, then how be u act according to the circumstances ?
Well, what I've meant was - you have to build according to the circumstances.

Quoting Jolly Joker's guide:
In the second week you may have to solve an ugly problem. You can get Greater Basilisks with 2 builds immediately costing 4000 Gold, 10 Wood and 15 Ore. Greater Basilisks are fast and solid units PLUS you don't need that much Wood to get them. You could recruit them immediately and give your army of Dragon Flies A LOT more substance. On the other hand you'd like to build the Gorgon Lair (for that you need the Lizard Den first) and a Castle. Now, Gorgons are not bad, but they are not MIGHTY Gorgons, so you would be reluctant to recruit Gorgons. You would rather wait with their recruitment, until they are upgraded. The Lizard Den, the Gorgon Lair and the Castle will cost you 8500 Gold, 25 Wood, 20 Ore, 5 Mercury and 5 Sulfur. So the optimum build would be:

9. Basilisk Pit/Citadel
10 Upgraded Basilisk Pit
11. Lizard Den
12. Gorgon Lair
13. Castle
14. Captain's Quarters (sequence may be changed)

While this should be possible moneywise, you'd need 35 Wood, 35 Ore, 5 Mercury and 5 Sulfur for that. Even with 2 Sawmills and 2 Orepits you'll get only 28 Wood and 28 Ore a week, so if you don't find Wood and Ore, these builds are out of reach. The problem, you'll have to solve, is, what NOT to build, if you haven't enough resources. One possible skip is the Castle. Sure, there will be fewer creatures to recruit and you need to build it anyway as soon as possible, but a Castle costs 5000 Gold, 10 Wood and 10 Ore, so if you skip it, this will free money for the recruitment of the Greater Basilisks PLUS it will reduce the Wood AND Ore demands. Another possible skip would be Gorgon Lair (plus maybe even the Lizard Den). This would save you 2500 (3500) Gold, 10(15) Wood and 10 Ore AND you would get the Capitol earlier (fewer builds, more money saved), which would result in more money later on in the third week. And lastly the third possible skip would be the Basilisk Pit and the Upgraded Basilisk Pit, saving you 4000 Gold, 10 Wood and 15 Ore. As there were no Basilisks to recruit you could save further money and get the Capitol even earlier. If skipping something, it might even be possible to slip in the building of a 2nd level Mage Guild which would be an added plus. What to do, depends on the allaround situation. Are enemys near? Go for the Basilisks. Skip the Gorgon Lair and the Lizard Den. The trouble is, you will have to make a decision on the 9th (or 10th, if you are playing for time and build Captain's Quarters first) day. If you have any excuse for not building the creature dwelling (XL map, for example), go for the money and see to it, that you get the Capitol as soon as possible.
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