Heroes III VS Heroes IV

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Which Game Do You Like Better?

Heroes III
76
44%
Heroes IV
64
37%
I Like them The Same
34
20%
 
Total votes: 174

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pepak
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Postby pepak » Apr 13 2006, 17:59

ThunderTitan wrote:Quick combat not good enough for you?

Quick Combat will often lose a clearly-won fight. Consider one Vampire against 100 Ice Demons: With quickcombat, Ice Demons win.

And unless it's the final battle i'm pretty sure that the extra creatures you get with nwcares will give you an unfair advantage.

If you used creatures in battle, then yes, you might have a point. Though not always - consider one sprite against 100 slowed hydras... Of course, more often you would not use any creatures anyway...

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Postby chaynhanh » Apr 13 2006, 19:13

csarmi wrote:I think save/reload to alter gameplay is cheating. To use nwcares to win a fight that would last for 5 minutes, but otherwise it's clearly won - is not.

Strange to hear that from you. I'm not talking about what is cheating and what is not because each of us has different point of view about it, but what is "save/reload to alter gameplay is cheating."? Save/load during the batle to change morale or in the beginning of the map to get the proper artifact, easier neutral monster (not that so one can pass it in general but to save a few turns in the game) is all the same for me, it's just dealing with the random of the game.
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Last edited by chaynhanh on Apr 13 2006, 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 13 2006, 19:25

pepak wrote:...


Oh, exploits or super-hero fights. My bad.
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Postby Metathron » Apr 14 2006, 11:17

pepak wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:Quick combat not good enough for you?

Quick Combat will often lose a clearly-won fight. Consider one Vampire against 100 Ice Demons: With quickcombat, Ice Demons win.


Quick combat in H4 is awful. But is it really possible for a single vampire to beat 100 ice demons? I suppose by waiting/flying away? Is it possible that at one point of the battle the demons gained on the vampires? IIRC, the speed and movement of the vampires in Equilibris has been taken down a notch.

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Postby pepak » Apr 14 2006, 14:52

ThunderTitan wrote:
pepak wrote:...

Oh, exploits or super-hero fights. My bad.

You call it exploits, I call it strategy. If the goal is to win, I will prefer a strategy that works to one that is fair.

Metathron wrote:But is it really possible for a single vampire to beat 100 ice demons?

Yes, I did it in Trapped Inside the Beast to get 60 points for fights won :-)

I suppose by waiting/flying away?

Indeed.

Is it possible that at one point of the battle the demons gained on the vampires?

It is possible at the beginning, when the Ice Demons stand a 10% chance of getting good morale. Once you kill 10% of the Ice Demons, they have no chance whatsoever.

IIRC, the speed and movement of the vampires in Equilibris has been taken down a notch.

Possibly. I don't play Equilibris.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 14 2006, 15:11

pepak wrote:You call it exploits, I call it strategy. If the goal is to win, I will prefer a strategy that works to one that is fair.


Exploits = strategies that were not meant to work but do. A rose by any other name... :D

I have nothing against them per se, but please don't hide behind words.
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Metathron
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Postby Metathron » Apr 14 2006, 20:09

pepak wrote:Possibly. I don't play Equilibris.


I do wonder why people choose not to play Equilibris. I practically can see no downside to it, and in hindsight, I appreciate Equilibris even more considering some vast incosistencies of Heroes IV, such as the grossly overpowered necromancy skill.

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Postby wimfrits » Apr 14 2006, 21:08

Metathron wrote:I do wonder why people choose not to play Equilibris. I practically can see no downside to it, and in hindsight, I appreciate Equilibris even more considering some vast incosistencies of Heroes IV, such as the grossly overpowered necromancy skill.


I think Equilibris is great for most MP maps and for SP maps made especially for equi.

But since equi has a different balance than the original game, all maps designed to be balanced in the original game will be less balanced with equi. Because the majority of maps is not designed for equi, a player that wants a balanced SP experience will logically be better off with the original game.

I agree that equi enhances the game though.
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Postby Black Ghost » Apr 15 2006, 11:03

When I first heard about Eq. i had mixed feelings but didn't want to judge without seeing it and playing.
And I was really nice surprised. Eq is worth having but must agree with Wimfrits that some maps are too designed for Standard.
Nevertheless thanks for Eq. Team for their work.

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Postby pepak » Apr 17 2006, 14:39

Metathron wrote:
pepak wrote:Possibly. I don't play Equilibris.


I do wonder why people choose not to play Equilibris. I practically can see no downside to it, and in hindsight, I appreciate Equilibris even more considering some vast incosistencies of Heroes IV, such as the grossly overpowered necromancy skill.

1) Unless I use an official version, my results can't be considered "valid" for discussion about Heroes. It simply is a different game, plain and simple. It might be a better game, possibly, but it's not "it". I mean, if I use Equilibris, I could just as well use a modification "Heroes With Immportal Human Players"...

2) I strongly dislike the attitude of Equilibris creators: "XYZ is too strong, let's solve it by weakening it". In my opinion, the only correct way to fix these unballancing issues, is to make the weak tactics stronger, not make the strong tactics weaker. Which is, by the way, the chief reason I stopped playing Magic the Gathering after 4th Edition - the evolution of the game pretty much turned into "let's see what works so we can create counters for it".

3) Balance isn't really that much an issue for me. I find my challenges in different areas.

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Postby BenchBreaker » Apr 18 2006, 23:30

voted heroes 4,

i just love how one megadragon can kill 500+ peasants, yeah i know one azure dragon can do the same but the peasants in heroes 3 are so weak it's rediculous :s

if only heores 4 had a proper combat grid...
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Postby trailMix » Apr 19 2006, 6:57

Metathron wrote:Quick combat in H4 is awful. But is it really possible for a single vampire to beat 100 ice demons? I suppose by waiting/flying away? Is it possible that at one point of the battle the demons gained on the vampires? IIRC, the speed and movement of the vampires in Equilibris has been taken down a notch.


I don't think they actually go thru a combat in "quick combat mode". I think they just analyze the strength of the armies and subtract the difference in strength.

Fast creature with no retaliation ability can kill any number of slow creatures. It will take all day to kill 100 ice demons, but it can be done. If you plan your moves carefully, demons will never catch up to the vampire. But the demons better be guarding a grail or something. I just don't have the patience for that kind of combat.

BTW, what's this save/load thing everyone's talking about?

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Postby trailMix » Apr 19 2006, 7:34

BenchBreaker wrote:voted heroes 4,

i just love how one megadragon can kill 500+ peasants, yeah i know one azure dragon can do the same but the peasants in heroes 3 are so weak it's rediculous :s

if only heores 4 had a proper combat grid...


I voted HoMM3. HoMM4 was superior to previous series in adventure maps. But it failed miserably in the tactical map. When it was first introduced, my reaction was: "where the hell is my grid!?, how am I supposed fight without it?" Thanks to the pseudo 3D perspective, the grids were more of diamond shape than a square; making it really difficult to guess how far your enemy is. Add the fact that the morale now changes the order in which the creatures went (I'm supposed to remember who goes next?), the tactics pretty much went out the window. Even when the grids became available, I really didn't care to count those little squrares. It's just too tedious. Of course, the ridiculously cluttered battle field made it often impossible for large walker to get into the action. They were often trapped between your own units and the obstacles. :mad:

Other than that, I thought HoMM4 was a great game. I even liked having heroes wander around with no army. :D I really wished that HoMM5 had the caravans and automatic resource delivery. Now I have to visit the stupid Leprechan every week again. :disagree:

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Postby Banedon » Apr 19 2006, 8:56

If anything, I think combat in Heroes 4 is far, far better than combat in Heroes 3. There are a ton more tactical options, far more scope to outmaneuveur your opponents and in general a heckload more fun, even if it was rather imbalanced.

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Postby pepak » Apr 19 2006, 9:23

trailMix wrote:It will take all day to kill 100 ice demons, but it can be done.

"Only" about two hours :-)

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Postby Guard of BH » Apr 21 2006, 4:24

:devil: heroes 4 is the worts version of heroes. the reason is dramatic change in battle structure 5 levels only of creatures per castle (almost)... and impossible calculation druing the combat--- cause no grid and battlefield was reduced again. And the way creatures looked that was in some way disgusting. And i one could defeat an army defending in castle but couldnt defeat it on the feild lol wtf. it was chaos against heaven.
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Postby Vulcanic » Apr 22 2006, 7:53

Heroes 4 got that adventure feeling, better game and all, but Heroes 3 still looks better in combat scene, creature looks, castle looks. Heroes 3 got one definite problem though, and that is the heroes can't fight....

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Postby Orfinn » Apr 22 2006, 10:39

Heroes 3 got one definite problem though, and that is the heroes can't fight....


And that is just lazy well except the use of magic., poor creatures :disagree:

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Postby csarmi » Apr 24 2006, 17:41

battlefield wasn't reduced, it got larger
especially if you count the little sqaures :P

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Postby 1979 » Apr 26 2006, 21:36

I voted for Heroes III. I loved that game and I still play it; I just got done with the Master of the Elements Chronicles. I bought Heroes IV right when it was released, but it turned up to be a disappointment. I was into it for awhile, but it just didn't have the same charm that the third one had.


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