HoMM III: Does it make sense?

[Metathron]

This is something I've been wondering about from time to time. Why can Castle only build a mage guild up to level 4, Fortress and Stronghold only up to level 3, whereas the other 6 can build a full mage guild?

Is it because they are considered might factions? If so, I'm not sure I see exactly what their might advantages are. Furthermore, if they're might factions, why do they have full-fledged magic heroes?

I feel that it's especially the Fortress and Stronghold (not so much the Castle) that are at a disadvantage on account of some of their rather weak creatures, for example.

How do folks feel about this? Vote!

[darknessfood]

Yes, I think that it makes sense. I know that Barbarians have Battle mages (to name a example) but Barbarians are more specialized in brute forse. What sense does it make also (campaign wise) to be able to have a mage guild to learn lvl 5 spells? Most people playing with Stronghold, just have it for their brute heroes who have lot's of attack and defence.
Castle, well, it's a knight based castle, not much mythical magical beings. It's kinda weird for them to pull of all the spells you want.
The might factions sure have their magical heroes, if they don't it perhaps get's unballanced, and not fun to play. Why play with castles like Stronghold if you want to cast spells, you woný and I think 3DO wanted to avoid that a little bit.
Lastly, I don't think that Fortress and Stonghold have a major dissadvantage. Stronghold (which I played more) and also Fortress are easier to build up, army wise. Within a week, you can have Behamoth's, the great powerfull one. Want some Titans? better save up, A LOT. Not even to talk about upgrading the dahm creatures.

In conlusion, I think that it makes sense. It lacks in magic, but it excells in building up a strong army in the beginning, and thus gives you a BIG advantage there...

[ThunderTitan]

Sense... yeah. Is it balanced?! Well are might heroes balanced against magic heroes?!

[pirvix]

Yeah, it does make sense, as those towns build on brute force rather than magic. And, besides, they can then spend more time and resources on other buildings/monsters/whatever that perhaps lean towards the ''might'' side.

[Pol]

It's motivating for them to seize a high Magic Town, that's usually necessary later in the game.

[Metathron]

I don't see what kind of advantage their creatures have over the other town's creatures so the argument that they depend on "brute force" doesn't make sense to me.

[darknessfood]

You can build their dwellings MUCH faster. That is where the brute force part kicks in...

[lumpoor]

No it's not that that is meant with a might faction.

Beastmasters and barbarians have higher chances to get attack defense when they level up compared to for example overlords or alchemists. Fortresses and strongholds caster heroes also get more attack and defense than the other factions magic heroes

[Bandobras Took]

On a humorous note, 5 levels of a mage guild in the Fortress might have them bumping into the Wyvern's Nest, and you know how territorial those creatures get.

[Metathron]

Ok, Bandobras has me convinced.

[Pitsu]

Yes, the might of fortress or stronghold is not in creatures, but how fast they come available and how much they are boosted by hero attack and defense. Just like knight and barbarian in Homm1-2. Peasants and goblins lose to centaurs or halflings, but high level guys come in early game and get more boost from hero.

About magic guild IMO fortress with their witches could have at least lvl4 available. Or the might factions could have the guild more expensive. On the other hand, isn't the expert level in elementary magic more important than the top levels of the guild? Mass haste/slow are available for barbarians and swamps and only IMBA adventure spells like town portal, fly and dimension door are what they really miss?

[Leandrusi]

I think Fortress is a little (or more than a little) in disadvantage! Not only with the magic, but with the creatures, theyre just weaker than other creatures of the same level (with exception of those gnolls, they rock!and maybe gorgons).
Those level 3 mosquitos only annoy the oponnet (why dont they spare some lethal disease like fiber or something? XD), and they have THE WORST distance shooters of the game: "lizardmen" :s
ONly good thing is you can have say, ONE wivern at the first week, but it wont last much long thru the map cause of theyre low defense....

[gaspi2]

Now you really insulted fortress;p In my eyes fortress's units are top-notch in every aspect.

gnolls - honestly I never use these and just keep them cooking some meals in town if smb comes for a visit:).

lizardmen - worst lvl 2 shooter, best tower-punishment reciever during siege, their population and high HP allows them to take beating from arrow towers during siege with ease, which marksmen with their 10 HP cannot say;p

Dfragonfly - IMO one of the best lvl 3, 13 speed -you can outrun almost everything and why not to cast smth nice like mass shield for 30% dmg red on everybody? All you need is expert earth magic and shield spell(stoneskin) - I don't personally think fortress needs lvl 4 or 5 spells for combat (just townportal;p), mass shield, mass stoneskin, mass slow, anti-magic for hydras and here we go!
Also, if enemy spent several rounds casting such things on 1 stack of archangel as counterstrike, prayer, fireshield, magic mirror etc - 1 attck from these babies and all is gone + nice weakness added. Since fortress's def is too high I don't think they would die so easily;)

bazilisks - I like these, no disadvantage at all, great for siege since you can stall holes in walls with petrified stacks:)) and during combat petrify something dangerous while you can focus on smth else - 4 example petrify either ghost dragons or dread knight - age + deathblow + luck on dreadknight is a killer on anything (virtualy it kills 8 times more monsters than it would and it's difference if you lose 16 archangels to dreadknights instead of 2;p)

Mighty gorgons - deathstare nothing else to say here.

wyvern monarchs - poison rocks:) since fortress has quite hard time bringing down opponent's army poison brings down the hp of dangerous stack down (after 3 rounds when psn's going off ancient behemoth will have just 210/300 hp left! and if you managed to petrify it right after poisoning then they will do no harm at all and be left with just 210 hp 4 clean hit.

hydras - nightmare of every creature, no retal monster like devil/archdevil, and 8 hex attack, pain in the ass if this thing sticks to some archers;p

and to mage/warrior class hero - I used to take only magic ones but after some time I switched to might ones, since I use magic mainly to boost - 1 expert earth magic and mass shield + mass stone skin + mass slow and you can call it a victory most of the time, when you add anti-magic to hydras then there's gonna be a lot of fun:)

why fortress is so powerful in my eyes it that almost every their creature has something nasty on attack - weakness, petrify, deathstare, poison and 8-hex attack, more def = more retalation+more hits = more chances to apply them. If you manage to get counterstrike somehow then this will solve even problem if opponent's focusing power on 1 stack at a time;p

[Bandobras Took]

In a straight shoot-out Lizardmen beat Marksmen.

Fortress also increases in value the higher the difficulty level; they have very low rare resource requirements compared to other towns. Tazar is one of the better heroes in the game.

[Banedon]

@gaspi2 - I think you're neglecting one very important thing about Fortress's creatures, their stats. Their stats are by and large low. Compare the strongest level 7 creature (Archangels) with Fortress's level 7 (Chaos Hydras) and the difference speaks a thousand words. Truth be told every single Fortress creature except the Mighty Gorgons are fairly mediocre. Here's how they stand:

Gnolls - decent units, but as level 1's they don't really matter that much once outside early-game.
Lizardmen - decent units, but the point of a ranged creature is largely to deal damage with. They may beat Marksmen in an honorable 1v1, but Marksmen are simply superior units with much greater damage.
Dragonflies - decent units, but again rather lacking on damage output.
Basiliks - decent units, but rather unspectacular walker.
Gorgons - Fortress's only outstanding creature isn't too outstanding. It has only two real strengths, Death Stare and the high HP. Low damage as always, so you'll be relying on Death Stare to kill creatures ... not very appealing.
Wyvenrs - low stats.
Hydras - low stats.

I'm of opinion Fortress is clearly one of the weaker races in Heroes 3. Your expansion speed is quite slow. Their units are also slow, so the initiative is usually with the opponent. While you can make your units even stronger with Mass Shield etc, so can your opponent, and the more blessings you cast the more vulnerable you are to Mass Dispel. Because your units deal low damage you can't eliminate the opponent's most dangerous stacks first, while he can do that to you (with glee, too). Your ranged firepower is pitiful, and are therefore forced to attack, but your units are slow, so you'll be taking ranged fire while crossing the battlefield. Teleport helps, but then a single teleported unit will get gazillion'ed to death. Your creatures inflict a variety of conditions on the foe if you get lucky, but they can be cured ...

It may be just me, but I'd go with Castle / Stronghold / Inferno / Rampart any day. They simply clear the map faster.

@topic - I have no real opinion, other than that for game balance reasons I feel Stronghold and Fortress should have access to Mage Guild 5. Castle can deal with Mage Guild 4 since they don't usually rely on level 5 spells (well Dimension Door).

@Pitsu - Prayer.

[Bandobras Took]

@gaspi2 - I think you're neglecting one very important thing about Fortress's creatures, their stats. Their stats are by and large low. Compare the strongest level 7 creature (Archangels) with Fortress's level 7 (Chaos Hydras) and the difference speaks a thousand words. Truth be told every single Fortress creature except the Mighty Gorgons are fairly mediocre. Here's how they stand:

However, compare the Archangels with the Might Gorgons, and the difference speaks a thousand words. The Fortress is "Out of Order," so to speak, in terms of creature strength, because for every town except the Necropolis, you must compare the Mighty Gorgons to that town's L7. Chaos Hydras easily match any town's L6, etc.

Fortress' main weakness is their adventure map speed.

Teleport helps, but then a single teleported unit will get gazillion'ed to death.

Chaos Hydras will take out a whole lot before they go. That's their whole point. They're not meant to match up with a single L7 stack; that's the job of the Mighty Gorgons. Chaos Hydras are meant to hit 2-3 stacks at once without being retaliated against. Especially with a Beastmaster's high defense/Armor skill, they'll last longer than most other troops in the same situation.

Basilisks may not be a spectacular unit, but they are a very solid unit for their price -- no rare resources for a L4 dwelling is pretty good.

[gaspi2]

Since you can have 2 wyverns at day 2(or 3 based on how you start) you can flag most of mines very soon, unlike castle I dare to say, since it takes some time to upgrade marksmen, build blachsmith 4 swordmen etc...
only thing I do as fortress is to build wyvern nest and then I go straight 4 capitol (alongside with 1st aid tent on day 2(3), so my wyverns won't die, I don't need bazilisks nor gorgons to clear up mines (yet) and that 1 week of 3 gorgons/ 4 bazilisks won't do much difference:)

Oh, and try Tazar (spl. armorer) with expert armorer, HUGE def skill and expert shield and stoneskin and you will see how tough those guys will be!
On map tale of two lands I managed to bring down 4000 horned demons(WoG) with army that compared on XL map you would laugh on:)(500 horned demons didn't do enough dmg even to kill 1 hell hydra, blah! got refreshed by 1st aid tent right away;p If any1 interested I can try to make a video I still have the save somewhere;p)

[Bandobras Took]

Since you can have 2 wyverns at day 2(or 3 based on how you start) you can flag most of mines very soon, unlike castle I dare to say, since it takes some time to upgrade marksmen, build blachsmith 4 swordmen etc...

My experience has been that early Wyverns is a less effective choice, since you're putting down a huge amount of wood for what is admittedly one of the Fortress Town's less spectacular troops. Castle does exceptionally well at clearing mines with its Marksmen and Pikemen, and that for a lower resource investment. Wyverns are okay, but getting them early can set you more back in terms of resources spent than resources they bring in.

Three extra Gorgons stockpiling is the better investment, IMO.

While Wake of Gods is fun for some people, it should probably not be used as an example of the strength of the Fortress, since it is a fan-made mod and not the actual game.

[Banedon]

However, compare the Archangels with the Might Gorgons, and the difference speaks a thousand words. The Fortress is "Out of Order," so to speak, in terms of creature strength, because for every town except the Necropolis, you must compare the Mighty Gorgons to that town's L7. Chaos Hydras easily match any town's L6, etc.

If there are enough Mighty Gorgons to be a threat they will get focused. Since they are level 5s (or level 7s with the stats of level 5s, if that's how you look at it) they will also die quite fast, even with 70 HP. They will get shot and they will die and they won't be able to kill all the Archangels on the battlefield, and to get them into range you'll have to use Teleport - or be on the receiving end of a Mass Hasted Stronghold army, which is just as painful.

Also, Chaos Hydras will die, and they'll die pretty fast. Just look at their stats. 18 attack!? 20 defense!? If you factor in the Beastmaster's high defense / Armorer, then you need also factor in the opposing hero - who'll be casting Mass Prayer / Mass Slow / Implosion / etc while you're casting Teleport in addition to sporting his own array of stats.

Since you can have 2 wyverns at day 2(or 3 based on how you start) you can flag most of mines very soon, unlike castle I dare to say, since it takes some time to upgrade marksmen, build blachsmith 4 swordmen etc...

You can also have Marksmen day 2 - in fact day 1 even if you start with the level 2 dwelling. That lets you clear most neutrals. Against most walkers and even some flyers you're usually at more risk of losing a Wyvern than losing a Marksman as well.

And I don't have WoG, but still - were the Horned Demons leaderless? Because if they are, they won't threaten any similarly-built late-game army led by a similarly high-level hero. They will be Slowed, pounded by ranged attacks and eventually attacked with massive force with the unit that took the retaliation getting Resurrected (if applicable).

[Bandobras Took]

If there are enough Mighty Gorgons to be a threat they will get focused. Since they are level 5s (or level 7s with the stats of level 5s, if that's how you look at it) they will also die quite fast, even with 70 HP. They will get shot and they will die and they won't be able to kill all the Archangels on the battlefield, and to get them into range you'll have to use Teleport - or be on the receiving end of a Mass Hasted Stronghold army, which is just as painful.

Also, Chaos Hydras will die, and they'll die pretty fast. Just look at their stats. 18 attack!? 20 defense!? If you factor in the Beastmaster's high defense / Armorer, then you need also factor in the opposing hero - who'll be casting Mass Prayer / Mass Slow / Implosion / etc while you're casting Teleport in addition to sporting his own array of stats.

I can see one or the other getting focused on, but both may be stretching things a bit. If he's focusing on Chaos Hydras, that gives the other troops time to march on over. If he's focusing fire on the Mighty Gorgons, by definition he won't be focusing fire on the Chaos Hydras. And whether or not the Chaos Hydras end up dying, they'll have taken a lot with them when they go -- most likely including a ranged stack.

I'm not saying that the Fortress is the be-all and end-all, but rather that its problems have more to do with the adventure map than actual combat. They're awfully slow and Witches by and large are the suckiest heroes in the game. If you don't manage to get Water Magic with a Beastmaster, you're in for a very rough time.