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ThunderTitan
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 20 2008, 11:17

It's insta transform, and the extraneous effect from it's are drops of gold which can be collected after battle. So in neutral battles you can really do your money. :devious:
Isn't there an ability like that already?! Coz i just used in in Maahir's Gambit...
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Postby Banedon » Feb 24 2008, 10:35

Thoughts on...

History - this seems disjointed, to be honest. Why would Bardavious rally the Hexed around him? Why would he care? Why would a band of gypsies suddenly form a city? What happened to all the people who weren't hexed?

Racial specials - Nomadic is probably managable, though a significant advantage. Black Rage is another matter. 5% extra damage is not necessarily game-breaking (why not just add more damage to their units though?) but 10% to two specific races is. This makes the Hexed more effective against just two races and relatively weaker so against everyone else. I think this is not good. Races should be balanced against each other and not be countered hard by one another. Consider Rock-Paper-Scissors for example. Rock is always going to beat Scissors, Scissors always going to beat Paper. But is Haven always going to beat Necropolis, or Necropolis always going to beat Academy? No, and so I do not think this extra 5% damage should be there.

Shapeshift - I'll just look at Expert:
Expert. All creatures can shapeshift. Add 1 turn to length of change. Upgraded get +2 attack, +2 defense, +1 init, +1 speed, +1 hp.
The effective duration then is 3 turns, which is considerable. It also gives the qweer ability to deploy upgraded units without the dwellings. This is potentially game-breaking since a lot can be achieved in three turns; also it gives a resource advantage (not as much need to upgrade dwellings). Just how game-breaking it is I don't know, but it is obviously a lot more powerful than Artificier, Training (after the change) and Avenger (but I'm not sure about the Dwarven and Orcish specials). On the other hand, the bonuses granted to upgraded units seem almost trivial. When units have 20 attack and defense (as the high-tier units all do) 2 attack and defense are barely anything. Initiative will matter and so will speed, but it won't be a large advantage. +1 HP is laughable because it's a mere 1% boost to the higher-tier units.

This means Shapeshift is only going to really affect the lower-tier units when +2 attack can be almost 50% of their attack skill. It happens however (as I'll write later) that the lower-tier units of the Hexed are very near to useless. I don't think even Ultimate Shapeshift is going to help them much; they'll stay as fodder for most part.

First looks: Shapeshift is overpowered for unupgraded units and fairly weak for upgraded units. I'd say change it such that it affects unupgraded units the same way as upgraded units. It'd be a serious nerf, but then the rest of the town definitely appear strong enough to compensate.

Tier 1 creatures - As above, I think they're weak enough to be fodder. You need only look at their stats. Low speed and initiative, low defense, low HP - they'll be murdered by any kind of ranged fire, and won't ever get to attack until it barely matters anyway. Only time they would matter would be when there's a powerful ranged stack you have to guard, but even then they can be decimated easily by AoE spells and attacks.

Probable upgrade - I probably won't upgrade them since they're weak anyway, but if I do I'll pick the Warped. The Twisted's abilities aren't that impressive after all; they aren't going to get to hit any tier 1 or 2s (which tier 1 / 2 creatures are there that would charge over the battlefield anway? Not many), and you can't use them to actively absorb the retaliation of the strongest enemy stacks on the battlefield. You might be able to combine the Twisted with the Mistdancer's teleport to incapacitate Blood Furies and Familiars though.

Tier 2 creatures - Curious creatures. Vandashes can be used to soak up damage for your more critical units. Hindashes are not so impressive since low attack means Defense Strike is not going to deal much damage. Gorgashes are significantly stronger; you can almost use them as a strike force except for their low initiative.

Probable upgrade - Hindashes to cover the stronger units. I'd leave them unupgraded except they might Shapewhift into Gorgashes, which would still be good early-game but not so later.

Tier 3 creatures - Not very impressive. I have the same objections against the vendetta against both Vampires and Succubi (Rock-Paper-Scissors), but otherwise they aren't that strong. Low damage means they can't be reasonably used as artillery, but high initiative means they can be used to clear the enemy's blockers - it probably won't matter much though late-game.

Probable upgrade - Heartseeker. Pretty obvious, since judging from the Heartseeker's abilities he is a lot stronger than the Demon Hunter.

Tier 4 creatures - Very strong, to say the least, unless their stats are abyssmal. Their spells speak for themselves. I have not played enough TotE to be certain of the Forestdancer's viability (the spells are interesting, but just how strong is another matter - appears to be best when the race has strong ranged units; use to support Tigeria) but the Fogdancer's abilities especially are the cake. Consider:

1. Teleport - this very powerful spell serves all kinds of utility purposes.
2. Magical Immunity - another very powerful spell; depends on the level of the magic cast of course but is still killer at incapacitating Dark and Destruction magic.
3. Invisibility - not so useful, but it can be used to save a stack from getting mauled against neutrals.
4. Vampirism - 'ouch' for obvious reasons.

Probable upgrade - Fogdancers because of the powerful spells they bring to the table. Also, this tier would be a prime candidate for skimping on the upgrades since both upgrades and the unupgraded form are reasonably powerful.

Tier 5 creatures - Powerful units; Weretigers especially are awesome (unless they have horrible stats). No ranged penalty and two ranged attacks is horribly strong. Vengeria are decent but situational. They'll work decently against neutral melee units, but put them against a human opponent and you're essentially forced to rush them. They'll destroy armies based on lower-tiers (Skeleton Archers and Familiars) but not fare so well against heavy hitters.

Probable upgrade - This is another tier which you can leave unupgraded, though you'll probably want the Weretigers. Curiously though unless you upgrade to the Vengeria Need To Feed is not going to affect you - before three attacks are up, they'll shapeshift back anyway.

Tier 6 creatures - I'd say these are strong units (given good stats, of course) that require careful handling, but otherwise rather dull. They're strange though because the upgraded forms go to their ranged sisters, not to whoever attacked them - so you can potentially keep the Ursans and Werebears away just by launching ranged attacks at the Tigeria. Which means the Hexed must either charge across the battlefield with Vengeria and the upgraded forms, or stay behind with Weretigers.

Probable upgrade - I'm not sure what Paw Strike and Maul are, but otherwise it shouldn't matter all that much. Probably another tier that takes a low priority in upgrades, and then which upgrade depends on your strategy. Ursans for defense, Werebears for attack.

Tier 7 creatures - This tier is totally overpowered. Absolutely overpowered. Wendigos possessing creatures like Master Hunters can end the battle there and then; Whispers having incorporeal means they are absurdly difficult to destroy; Devourers are the end (they have no weaknesses and yet plenty of strengths).

Probable upgrade - Devourers for obvious reasons. They're just not going to die if they have strong stats in every category AND Devour.

Concept - Having written so much, I think it's important to stop and consider the implications of such a race. This race is, of course, a straight out anti-counter to Destruction and Dark. The implications are enormous; it'll be difficult to use Dark Magic or Destruction Magic against the Hexed. But some races have little choice but to use those same magics. Necropolis especially takes the shaft; Academy and Dungeon both find themselves forced to use Summoning (but what if their mage guilds don't give good Summoning spells, and even if they do what about Banish?). Inferno, with Pit Lords countered by Jinx, Familiars by Vengeria and Succubi by Demon Hunters, is also in trouble.

The town destroys these four races with little difficulty and this surely is not fair. I think the Hexed needs serious balancing. The concepts are brilliant, but the implementation is just unfair.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 24 2008, 12:23

Why would a band of gypsies suddenly form a city?
Coz they have enough moneyz to put Mercedez-Benz logos on all their towers of course.
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Postby Mytical » Feb 26 2008, 13:47

Thoughts on...

History - this seems disjointed, to be honest. Why would Bardavious rally the Hexed around him? Why would he care? Why would a band of gypsies suddenly form a city? What happened to all the people who weren't hexed?
He is a member of the gypsies, he had went to study dark magic, but not to become a necromancer. He had no use for the necromantic arts. The gypsies (the heroes) are not hexed, but have formed a haven for those who are. The shapeshift ability is the ability to use the hexes to aid those who had been hexed or cursed. They had no desire to form a city, but did so to offer a haven.
Racial specials - Nomadic is probably managable, though a significant advantage. Black Rage is another matter. 5% extra damage is not necessarily game-breaking (why not just add more damage to their units though?) but 10% to two specific races is. This makes the Hexed more effective against just two races and relatively weaker so against everyone else. I think this is not good. Races should be balanced against each other and not be countered hard by one another. Consider Rock-Paper-Scissors for example. Rock is always going to beat Scissors, Scissors always going to beat Paper. But is Haven always going to beat Necropolis, or Necropolis always going to beat Academy? No, and so I do not think this extra 5% damage should be there.
Believe me, I had thought about this. I purposedly made the race weak to balance this. Thus those who used dark and destruction can still compete against them, IF they forgo dark and destructive magic against the race. However, you do have a decent point. With tweaking the stats of the creatures a bit, the 5% extra can easily be gotten rid of.
Shapeshift - I'll just look at Expert:

Expert. All creatures can shapeshift. Add 1 turn to length of change. Upgraded get +2 attack, +2 defense, +1 init, +1 speed, +1 hp.

The effective duration then is 3 turns, which is considerable. It also gives the qweer ability to deploy upgraded units without the dwellings. This is potentially game-breaking since a lot can be achieved in three turns; also it gives a resource advantage (not as much need to upgrade dwellings). Just how game-breaking it is I don't know, but it is obviously a lot more powerful than Artificier, Training (after the change) and Avenger (but I'm not sure about the Dwarven and Orcish specials). On the other hand, the bonuses granted to upgraded units seem almost trivial. When units have 20 attack and defense (as the high-tier units all do) 2 attack and defense are barely anything. Initiative will matter and so will speed, but it won't be a large advantage. +1 HP is laughable because it's a mere 1% boost to the higher-tier units.

This means Shapeshift is only going to really affect the lower-tier units when +2 attack can be almost 50% of their attack skill. It happens however (as I'll write later) that the lower-tier units of the Hexed are very near to useless. I don't think even Ultimate Shapeshift is going to help them much; they'll stay as fodder for most part.

First looks: Shapeshift is overpowered for unupgraded units and fairly weak for upgraded units. I'd say change it such that it affects unupgraded units the same way as upgraded units. It'd be a serious nerf, but then the rest of the town definitely appear strong enough to compensate.
However, then would they be underpowered against other towns? This is a decent suggestion if not however.
Tier 1 creatures - As above, I think they're weak enough to be fodder. You need only look at their stats. Low speed and initiative, low defense, low HP - they'll be murdered by any kind of ranged fire, and won't ever get to attack until it barely matters anyway. Only time they would matter would be when there's a powerful ranged stack you have to guard, but even then they can be decimated easily by AoE spells and attacks.

Probable upgrade - I probably won't upgrade them since they're weak anyway, but if I do I'll pick the Warped. The Twisted's abilities aren't that impressive after all; they aren't going to get to hit any tier 1 or 2s (which tier 1 / 2 creatures are there that would charge over the battlefield anway? Not many), and you can't use them to actively absorb the retaliation of the strongest enemy stacks on the battlefield. You might be able to combine the Twisted with the Mistdancer's teleport to incapacitate Blood Furies and Familiars though.
With only a few exceptions fodder is what teir 1 and 2 should be imo.
Tier 2 creatures - Curious creatures. Vandashes can be used to soak up damage for your more critical units. Hindashes are not so impressive since low attack means Defense Strike is not going to deal much damage. Gorgashes are significantly stronger; you can almost use them as a strike force except for their low initiative.

Probable upgrade - Hindashes to cover the stronger units. I'd leave them unupgraded except they might Shapewhift into Gorgashes, which would still be good early-game but not so later.

Tier 3 creatures - Not very impressive. I have the same objections against the vendetta against both Vampires and Succubi (Rock-Paper-Scissors), but otherwise they aren't that strong. Low damage means they can't be reasonably used as artillery, but high initiative means they can be used to clear the enemy's blockers - it probably won't matter much though late-game.

Probable upgrade - Heartseeker. Pretty obvious, since judging from the Heartseeker's abilities he is a lot stronger than the Demon Hunter.
Pretty much agree here, but be aware that the gorgashes come with penalties.
Tier 4 creatures - Very strong, to say the least, unless their stats are abyssmal. Their spells speak for themselves. I have not played enough TotE to be certain of the Forestdancer's viability (the spells are interesting, but just how strong is another matter - appears to be best when the race has strong ranged units; use to support Tigeria) but the Fogdancer's abilities especially are the cake. Consider:

1. Teleport - this very powerful spell serves all kinds of utility purposes.
2. Magical Immunity - another very powerful spell; depends on the level of the magic cast of course but is still killer at incapacitating Dark and Destruction magic.
3. Invisibility - not so useful, but it can be used to save a stack from getting mauled against neutrals.
4. Vampirism - 'ouch' for obvious reasons.

Probable upgrade - Fogdancers because of the powerful spells they bring to the table. Also, this tier would be a prime candidate for skimping on the upgrades since both upgrades and the unupgraded form are reasonably powerful.
Agreed. Remember that fogdancers have issues however. And if shapeshift is altered. makes them a bit harder to manage. They would have low stats, but not 'abysmal'
Tier 5 creatures - Powerful units; Weretigers especially are awesome (unless they have horrible stats). No ranged penalty and two ranged attacks is horribly strong. Vengeria are decent but situational. They'll work decently against neutral melee units, but put them against a human opponent and you're essentially forced to rush them. They'll destroy armies based on lower-tiers (Skeleton Archers and Familiars) but not fare so well against heavy hitters.

Probable upgrade - This is another tier which you can leave unupgraded, though you'll probably want the Weretigers. Curiously though unless you upgrade to the Vengeria Need To Feed is not going to affect you - before three attacks are up, they'll shapeshift back anyway.
Again if the shapeshift is altered just to add stats, this would change, and you would have to be cautious. The 'dark' side of my creatures would always have higher stats, but come at a price (some issue or problem). They would still have slightly lower then base stats however.
Tier 6 creatures - I'd say these are strong units (given good stats, of course) that require careful handling, but otherwise rather dull. They're strange though because the upgraded forms go to their ranged sisters, not to whoever attacked them - so you can potentially keep the Ursans and Werebears away just by launching ranged attacks at the Tigeria. Which means the Hexed must either charge across the battlefield with Vengeria and the upgraded forms, or stay behind with Weretigers.

Probable upgrade - I'm not sure what Paw Strike and Maul are, but otherwise it shouldn't matter all that much. Probably another tier that takes a low priority in upgrades, and then which upgrade depends on your strategy. Ursans for defense, Werebears for attack.
I will make sure to specify that they only rush to protect against melee, thanks for noticiing that. These would actually have average stats for the teir. They are the 'tanks' of the group.
Tier 7 creatures - This tier is totally overpowered. Absolutely overpowered. Wendigos possessing creatures like Master Hunters can end the battle there and then; Whispers having incorporeal means they are absurdly difficult to destroy; Devourers are the end (they have no weaknesses and yet plenty of strengths).

Probable upgrade - Devourers for obvious reasons. They're just not going to die if they have strong stats in every category AND Devour.
Again most of the units have abysmal stats, or low stats. Possession can only be used 1x per combat and the units now take 50% of damage that the unit takes.
Concept - Having written so much, I think it's important to stop and consider the implications of such a race. This race is, of course, a straight out anti-counter to Destruction and Dark. The implications are enormous; it'll be difficult to use Dark Magic or Destruction Magic against the Hexed. But some races have little choice but to use those same magics. Necropolis especially takes the shaft; Academy and Dungeon both find themselves forced to use Summoning (but what if their mage guilds don't give good Summoning spells, and even if they do what about Banish?). Inferno, with Pit Lords countered by Jinx, Familiars by Vengeria and Succubi by Demon Hunters, is also in trouble.

The town destroys these four races with little difficulty and this surely is not fair. I think the Hexed needs serious balancing. The concepts are brilliant, but the implementation is just unfair.
Actually, do to very low stats, it is not as imbalanced as you think. In fact, with a hero that is not one of theirs, they would be almost useless. I am tweaking a few things with your suggestions. This is exactly what I was looking for. I knew they were overpowered, but not exactly what to do about it.
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