Love

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Banedon
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Love

Postby Banedon » Apr 29 2014, 21:46

[[Before anyone says something like "you will know when you meet Mrs / Mr Right", I have literally never felt any kind of romantic inclination towards anyone, although I have close friends of both genders, and I have seen my friends and family fall in love and get married one by one. I can reasonably confidently say that I'm aromantic - I'm in the subset of the population that does not feel love.]]

I have no experience about love. It's obviously a powerful emotion, enough to make people alter their behaviour when they're in love, write sad songs when they're no longer in love, and movies almost feel compelled to include a love story somewhere. But I've never felt love myself and will probably never feel it. For the people who have felt love before, some questions:

1) Presumably before love develops (unless love at first sight exists - does it?) the two people involved must first be friends. What is the boundary between friendship and love? How does Alice tell that she loves Bob, and they are not just close friends?

2) Suppose Alice loves Bob, but Bob doesn't love Alice. Then eventually after some time Alice will cease to love Bob. How does Alice know when her love for Bob has died, and they can just be friends once again?

3) Can love be controlled? That is, is it possible for Alice to choose to fall in love with Bob? If so, it would make sense to select the strongest possible partner (no genetic diseases, desired traits such as height, intelligence, etc) and then choose to fall in love with him or her. Why don't we see this more often then? If it's not possible to control love, then everyone would be fair game. Alice could fall in love with anyone and everyone, including her own father or someone who's already married. Why don't we see this more often then?
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby Panda Tar » Apr 30 2014, 0:39

I won't take any science-directed stuff into account, I'll tell just what I feel like, if it suffices, not that it happened to me many times. Just once. But as far as I can tell, love cannot overcome instinct, which might explain a bit what you asked in 3, which I also have an example of my late 'second' mother.

1. This one I find rather impossible to answer, due I've been single for a long while, and since you are asking about the evolution from friendship to 'loveship', I might as well be one that's hard to get in love. What I can state is how that boundary might work with me. As for my female friends I love, I simply love them the way they are, having their life, their manias, their problems, their smile, their romantic pair. I'm happy with them the way they are. If I'm convinced that they would be better without me - in case I find a friend which I see it's not completely happy - I'm not inclined to think differently than just friends. But I'd risk saying that the moment you start feeling like you cannot have much more time away from that person, or you think about that person more often than yourself and start having some egoistical thinking when she is doing something with someone else, there might be a glimpse of a start of love (jealousy was an example only, but I mean that when you are truly bothered by any sexual behavior she might have with another guy).

2. This is the situation I was involved directly. And this might have been a 'soft love at first sight' thing. I mean soft because I didn't feel a strong-urge-to-take-her-and-run-away-to-the-caves-to-make-love feel, but a rather pleasant feeling about all her looks and ways, plus the additional insight of the future, having kids with her, thinking on the many things you want to do with her by your side, literally live with her until the end AND have sons. But she had a boyfriend already - however, I felt bidden in such a I way that every time I was going out with my friends, I was feeling like I couldn't date others because I was waiting for her. This strong feeling lasted 2 years...it was a rather difficult time regarding my feelings, things that I wasn't used to feel, you see, and much less how to deal with them.

I realized that I was stopping to feel that way when I was feeling as I feel about any of my friends, I stopped seeing her by my side, but rather happy with whoever she chose to be with. I'd give my life to save her, if needed be, but that time. Nowadays, I'm not so sure. I still have a great feeling about her, but I think, if I could quantify it, it's not as much as any of my female friends which I have more contact.

3. Before dying, my late mother told me that when my father appeared in her life, she was wary. He was a bit demented, troubled by the choices he made (leaving his family over an inaccurate situation 2,000 km away). She offered him residence more to help him to balance (you see, she was one of those people you only see few times in your life, if you're lucky) his life, but she told me that he was a man difficult to live with and love at first.

I understand by that she made a resolution to start loving him when he felt more in control of himself again, and after a time, they both ended up in love, which lasted 18-19 years. When she said 'he was difficult to love', I imply love is something strongly related to your Will.

This is not the first time I heard the term: chose to love someone, btw. It's not common, but I think it was more common with the older generations and in some cultures. I believe instinct is something that's truly hard to control (if any), and that it's something which can make love spark weaker or stronger. And taking instinct into account, I think we are more bound to love those that are likely to reproduce and live as long as we do (similar age), and to avoid any genetic deformities (like siblings having kids and these other kind of relationships in-family).

Of course, we know very well there are many exceptions, as we also know many cases are directly influenced by culture and society.

Seeing love in that perspective, either being controlled by instinct, will, culture, society, I'd risk to state that love is controllable, but it gets harder and harder the longer your nurture it and believe it.

That's what I can say about love today.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

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Postby wimfrits » May 3 2014, 7:49

I have felt truly 'in love' maybe 4 times and have friends that fall in love everytime someone farts. If I am any judge on the quality of relationships I'd say that overall the less times you fall in love, the better your chance of a succesful relationship ;)
As for love, I think it's good to make a distinction between love and attraction.

Love is a feeling of caring for another's wellbeing, of mutual respect, of being allowed to be yourself. In essence, I think this feeling is no different towards your family, your dog, your partner, or that helpful employee at the shop. The strength of that emotion does vary. And like Tar said, it can be influenced by culture and will and can be nurtured to grow in strength or wither. Living together is obviously a strong driver for love to develop.

Attraction is the desire to reproduce with a person. Based on fertility, instinct and controlled by social/emotional inhibitions (or alcohol-induced lack thereof). I think falling in love is the point where love and attraction come together.

I don't think it can all be easily defined though..

1) Friendship means there is already love. If Alice discovers that she is also physically attracted to Bob, they are no longer just friends.
And yes, I believe in love at first sight. I think it's an intuitive feeling of chance for love to develop combined with attraction. When I first saw the girl that is now my wife I knew immediately by looking into her eyes that we could fit well together.

2) This will never happen. Alice can suppress her attraction to Bob though.

3) Love can be influenced by will. Attraction cannot. Alice can choose to enter a relationship with Bob based on Love and a rational desire for good genes. Which raises the question of the purpose of the instinctive feeling of attraction. I personally think that attraction also includes an intuitive sense of a good genetic match.
We don't see Alice with her own father or a married man more often because of social and cultural inhibitions.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby mr.hackcrag » May 13 2014, 21:21

Ooh, this is a romantic thread! :smooch:

Well, I was a late bloomer for love. Just be patient, you never know when the time will be right for it to happen to you.

I answer yes to your first question. The way it happened for me was that we met, about a week later I told her that I love her, and we've been together for almost a decade through hell and back. We are both each other's first sweetheart, so it worked out really well. ;)

2nd question doesn't apply to me and the third has too many variables for me to think about now.

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Postby Banedon » May 15 2014, 0:48

I mean that when you are truly bothered by any sexual behavior she might have with another guy).


Problem with that is that she's an intelligent human being and so should be free to make her own choices. If she chooses to make out with another guy, that's none of your business right? That's what I know I would think. It's her choice, and for good or for evil the consequences of that choice are hers to bear. Besides, presumably if you love her you would also want what is best for her. If she judges that it's best for her to make out with someone else, shouldn't you be happy for her?

I'm not sure if people avoid falling in love with their immediate relatives because of possible genetic deformities. Certainly the people of ages past did not know about genetics, but they just don't fall in love anyway. I also know people who think it's "disgusting" (their word) to fall in love with their sister, not mine to question why.

Did you fall in love with the woman in #2 before you knew she had a boyfriend, or did you fall in love with her even though you knew she had a boyfriend? If you think love can be controlled, why didn't you choose to stop loving her? It would've saved you two years of unrequited love.

@wimfrits - if that's how you call things then I can certainly feel love, but not attraction. Are you saying that in all relationships (e.g. between husband and wife) physical intimacy is also necessary?

I find it hard to believe that Alice can never cease to love / be attracted to Bob. Unless it she can simultaneously love many people at the same time, she'd never fall in love with someone else. That sounds grim, if nothing else.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby Panda Tar » May 15 2014, 14:32

Banedon wrote:Problem with that is that she's an intelligent human being and so should be free to make her own choices. If she chooses to make out with another guy, that's none of your business right? That's what I know I would think. It's her choice, and for good or for evil the consequences of that choice are hers to bear. Besides, presumably if you love her you would also want what is best for her. If she judges that it's best for her to make out with someone else, shouldn't you be happy for her?

But that's what happened. I kept my distance when knowing she was happy.

Did you fall in love with the woman in #2 before you knew she had a boyfriend, or did you fall in love with her even though you knew she had a boyfriend? If you think love can be controlled, why didn't you choose to stop loving her? It would've saved you two years of unrequited love.

That happened almost as soon as I saw her the first time. I just knew she had a boyfriend some weeks later. The feeling, although we can control somehow, is not something easy, specially if it's strong. Love is not like a TV that can be turned on and off in a blink of an eye. It might take time.
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Postby HodgePodge » May 15 2014, 18:06

2.) In my experience, 'love' or very strong attraction can happen at first glance; but usually, it takes a previous friendship/relationship before love blooms.

Also, in my experience, one never really stops loving someone that they have previously loved. It seems like they stay in your forever, even if they 'broke your heart' and the feeling is already dormant and way in the background.

Maybe the 'in love' part dissipates, but even many, many years later, I still occasionally think fondly of those people whom I used to love or be in love.

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Of course, sometimes it is necessary to end a relationship due to real-life circumstances … and/or … what is called 'irreconcilable differences'. The 'pain' disappears, but Love seems to be an eternal emotion which has a life and mind all its own. Just my 2¢.


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Postby wimfrits » May 16 2014, 15:03

HodgePodge wrote:Love seems to be an eternal emotion which has a life and mind all its own


Beautifully said!! :-D

@Banedon:
Physical attraction helps if you want offspring or to spark up the interest in one another. But I think love is the base of a relationship, not attraction.
I don't think there's a limit to the number of people you can love, be attracted to, or fall in love with.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby Banedon » Jun 4 2014, 2:40

HodgePodge wrote:Maybe the 'in love' part dissipates, but even many, many years later, I still occasionally think fondly of those people whom I used to love or be in love.


If love never fades completely, then why do people commit adultery?

Also, if it's possible to simultaneously love more than one person at a time, and yet polygamy is rare, adultery is treated harshly, and one's husband / wife would probably take grievous offense if one told him / her that there's someone else in one's heart too. It would also mean that it's possible to fall in love at first sight with the next person one meets on the street. It all looks very random to me.

Would you still love someone if you found out that that someone were HIV positive?

I also know someone who says she will never fall in love with someone of a different religion from her, and if a current boyfriend were to convert out of her religion, they will break up at once. Is this extreme or fairly common?
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby Panda Tar » Jun 4 2014, 13:20

Banedon wrote:If love never fades completely, then why do people commit adultery?

People motivation may vary. Sometimes, by observing some friends, they used to say they were trying to find something else their love didn't provide, or just to break some routine. Most of the times, after they grow experienced in living together, they stopped adultery behaviour.

Also, if it's possible to simultaneously love more than one person at a time, and yet polygamy is rare, adultery is treated harshly, and one's husband / wife would probably take grievous offense if one told him / her that there's someone else in one's heart too.

Hm, again it's a reaction that may vary. People I know, the majority of them, would prefer knowing the truth and ending the relationship if there's someone else. That can be different from region to region, I believe.

Would you still love someone if you found out that that someone were HIV positive?

HIV, these days, it not something that would stop someone to love another, specially because you can deal with it. Even when people got terminal cancer, people will not falter with their emotions. I'm giving cancer as an example, because it's a death situation.

I also know someone who says she will never fall in love with someone of a different religion from her, and if a current boyfriend were to convert out of her religion, they will break up at once. Is this extreme or fairly common?

I think it depends on the local culture more than people themselves. In my country, this issue might not be even considered anything like an extreme decision, but fairly common. In my country, this is not something that would hold their decision, unless we are talking about very traditional families (which would uphold their own country's culture and religion). In my point of view, religion should never stop one from loving the other, but quite the opposite.
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Real Love

Postby Yurian Stonebow » Jun 5 2014, 11:25

"All my little plans and schemes,
Lost like some forgotten dreams,
Seems that all I really was doing
Was waiting for you.

Just like little girls and boys,
Playing with their little toys.
Seems like all they really were doing
Was waiting for love.

Don't need to be alone,
No need to be alone.
It's real love, it's real.
Yes it's real love, it's real.

From this moment on I know
Exactly where my life will go.
Seems that all I really was doing
Was waiting for love.

Don't need to be afraid,
No need to be afraid.
It's real love, it's real.
Yes it's real love, it's real.

Thought I'd been in love before,
But in my heart, I wanted more.
Seems like all I really was doing
Was waiting for you."

-The Beatles, Real Love
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Postby Banedon » Jun 8 2014, 13:06

Well if it's possible to love multiple people at the same time, then why would the relationship have to end? Bob wouldn't have to hide the fact that he loves Eve in addition to Alice either.

About HIV, it's not the same as cancer because HIV can be transmitted by sexual activity (most cancers won't be, although some can). Many sexual activities with an infected individual will put oneself at risk. It is possible to reduce the chance of transmission, but the only foolproof way is abstinence. If you were to find out that your partner is HIV positive, would you put your own well-being at risk by continuing sexual relations? For that matter, if you were to find out that your partner has some serious genetic defect that might afflict all your children and / or lead to disease in the future that will lead to death or disability, as well as take up a lot of financial resources, would you continue the relationship? Do you ask any potential partners what their family health history is?

Finally about religion, the weird thing is that my friend is essentially saying she can control love to the point that if her boyfriend converts out of her religion, she can immediately cease to love him. But you said love is not like a TV that can be turned on and off ... my friend's position feels really unusual too, because it would mean she is somehow unable to fall in love with someone until she finds out what his religion is. Do you ask any potential partners what their religion is?
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby Panda Tar » Jun 9 2014, 2:32

Banedon wrote:Well if it's possible to love multiple people at the same time, then why would the relationship have to end? Bob wouldn't have to hide the fact that he loves Eve in addition to Alice either.

Well, all of them must accept the other's decision and share the same love. It'd be difficult if you loved 2 people and they hated each other. How to sustain it?

About HIV, it's not the same as cancer because HIV can be transmitted by sexual activity (most cancers won't be, although some can).

I didn't say it was. I said that in my point of view, it's the opposite of your worries, Banedon. If you love that person, you'll stick with that person no matter what. Even if you might end up getting HIV (which is what you seem to worry) or your partner dies (which is my worry, in case of terminal cancer, given that HIV people are not in an imminent risk to die as they were in the past, so even if you get HIV too, you'll be able to keep living with the one you love, until whatever fate awaits you).

For that matter, if you were to find out that your partner has some serious genetic defect that might afflict all your children and / or lead to disease in the future that will lead to death or disability, as well as take up a lot of financial resources, would you continue the relationship? Do you ask any potential partners what their family health history is?

I think I would. I'd adopt children. Death and disability can happen to any individual, even healthy ones. Keeping the mind worried about 'what ifs' will surely make you stop living all the same. Health history of our families are likely to be told when one thinks it's the time to truly trust someone, not, I think, something you'll be asking as if you're some sort of breeding robot.


Do you ask any potential partners what their religion is?

Well, that's her choice. It's likely she 'loves religion', or what she believes in, and must have a partner with the same love as she seems to have. I'm not a religious person, so I'm not one that care much about another's religion, unless there's some sort of 'fanatic' behavior or something about it which usually demoralizes other people, such as saying that her religion is better or the right one than other people. I despise that sort of thinking/belief. If there's a God and God made the man with freewill, such it is their freewill to believe whatever they want. Saying this or that religion is the right one is simply going against such free state. But this fanatic behavior I mentioned extends to about anything, not only religion of course. There are many things that can end love as well. Unconditional love is, in my opinion, something really rare I cannot really comprehend.
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Postby BoardGuest808888 » Jul 17 2014, 8:24

You confused love with attraction (physical or otherwise) and marriage. These 3 things can be together, but they're not the same nor one is a precedent of the other.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 13 2014, 19:07

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more"!!!

my friend is essentially saying she can control love to the point that if her boyfriend converts out of her religion, she can immediately cease to love him.


No, she's saying she's not in love with him... or she's lying to herself about her religion.

Reminds me of 9th grade, when this guy went after this girl until she got together with him, then she was talking to this other girl who asked her why she was with hi, and she said it was better then being alone... and at that moment i was sure that she was going to cry when he breaks up with her... and lo and behold, next year that;s exactly what she was doing when he did.

F*cking people don't know sh*t, never trust what they say, judge them by their actions, and even then, never assume you're right, because you're f*cking people too, and you suck also.
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Postby asandir » Sep 10 2014, 4:15

I would be wary of equating people being in love and adultery as being mutually exclusive.

love is many-faceted and means different things to different people .... I love my kids, I loved my ex, and now I love being single ;) .

However, when applied in the romantic sense, I think love and lust are often confused, as is love and familiarity/comfort.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 10 2014, 11:57

HEY, SANDY'S BACK!!!


asandir wrote:I would be wary of equating people being in love and adultery as being mutually exclusive.


FML... i swear, its a conspiracy...

asandir wrote:I loved my ex


Until she made you quit the forum... HEROES FOREVER! (also, if she actually did, that was a crazy demand, and i dont understand staying in a relationship after that)


asandir wrote:However, when applied in the romantic sense, I think love and lust are often confused, as is love and familiarity/comfort.


Sometimes i swear i'm the only one who has no trouble with that... lust - the only tihng left that i feel about a woman that i liked after she opens her mouth... :devil:
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Sep 11 2014, 23:06

ThunderTitan wrote: lust - the only tihng left that i feel about a woman that i liked after she opens her mouth... :devil:


You mean like this? -> :-D

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Sep 24 2014, 0:07

ThunderTitan wrote:
my friend is essentially saying she can control love to the point that if her boyfriend converts out of her religion, she can immediately cease to love him.
Is your friend named Gwyneth Paltrow? I sure love those people who can consciously decouple and maintain such a zen-like state of mind at all times.

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Postby Banedon » May 23 2015, 7:37

wimfrits I got a question: if you fell in love with the woman who became your wife at first sight ... what would you have done if you later found out that she's already attached / married?
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.


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