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Zenofex
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Postby Zenofex » Feb 13 2011, 15:42

Also, women still make on average less money then men... they must not want money right.

What does this have to do with the army? Generally (just generally but with many exceptions) this is so, but you're bridging discrimination in general with discrimination (actually the lack of such) in one particular case. Nobody denies the fact that women aren't exactly equal to men when it comes to proper treatment but when talking about the military service... get real, please!

That was kinda the point... pay attention.

I do. Do you?

And there aren't many men that wear dresses either... except if they're scottish... it's funny how social norms work.

If this has any meaning at all, it totally eludes me.

There's a minimum physical fitness required to join most armies nowadays... as long as you pass that there's no reason to turn any recruit away no matter the gender...

Yes, and most women prefer to stay under this minimum requirement and develop themselves in other areas. Go figure.

Feeling oppressed and the reason why something is like it is are two different things...

And you mean..? Nobody complains (or if there are some who complain, they're very few), the vast majority of the women have absolutely no interest in the soldier profession but still it is a problem, "discrimination", violation of rights? :rolleyes:
Seriously now, I completely support the civil liberties idea and even could be quite drastic about it at times but one gotta apply some gray matter even regarding what he likes. Some claims here are borderline ridiculous. Come on people, don't you have girlfriends? Don't you communicate with girls/women? Go ask them what do they think about the army life. You'll be frequently answered that they like soldiers but I'll be very surprised if you get more than a few responses that they would like to become soldiers. Or you live on some other planet?
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Postby sezerp » Feb 13 2011, 16:13

ThunderTitan wrote:
sezerp wrote:Not enlisting women was actually very pragmatic, it is all about allocation of resources really. Only women can bear children.


And keeping them away from other men/putting a chastity belt on assured known parentage on both sides... i'm sure all this stuff had some form of pragmatism at it's base...


I don't see the point here. So because chastity belts happened we should ignore all the rationality?

And speaking of opression: many man were forced to join the army against their will, quite often not even for their own king. Now imagine how much worse it would have been if laws allowed to force women into the military.

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sezerp wrote:At the same time their value as soldiers was questionable at best.


If we ignore the baby making requirement (...) it would be extra soldiers, and that always helps.


No, it doesn't always help. If too many people serve in the army there's it becomes too much of a burden on the economy. In extraordinary situation you call to arms everyone, including 15 year old kids, elders and yes, women. But that's a last resort.

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Postby Mirez » Feb 13 2011, 16:19

Lets talk about the game yes?
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Postby Kalah » Feb 13 2011, 16:26

What, in the Heroes 6 forum? Have you gone mad, man? ;)
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Postby jeff » Feb 13 2011, 16:32

Mirez wrote:Lets talk about the game yes?


Yes please, and in that context it makes NO difference whether their male or female or for that matter how skimpy the armor, it's a game. The armor could be magical and whether bikini or full body still provide full protection. It's a game. You don't like it; then use males. I am not asking for nudity, or even bikinis but if they go with skimpy armor get over it. Obviously stating why you like or dislike it is a fair debate issue. However find another thread to debate real world politics, otherwise if you can’t get past that the mods should consider closing the thread. Political debates have a habit of ending very badly on this forum.
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Postby Mirez » Feb 13 2011, 16:35

or any forum for that matter.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 16:50

Zenofex wrote:What does this have to do with the army? Generally (just generally but with many exceptions) this is so, but you're bridging discrimination in general with discrimination (actually the lack of such) in one particular case. Nobody denies the fact that women aren't exactly equal to men when it comes to proper treatment but when talking about the military service... get real, please!


The only reason why women get offered and accept less money is because there are still deep seated social norms affecting us, no matter how much we say they're not...

Hence why women aren't into joining the army and why you think they're not made for it in the first place...

I do. Do you?


I'm not the one mistaking one argument for it's opposite, am i.

And there aren't many men that wear dresses either... except if they're scottish... it's funny how social norms work.

If this has any meaning at all, it totally eludes me.


That's pretty obvious.



Yes, and most women prefer to stay under this minimum requirement and develop themselves in other areas. Go figure.


Obesity rates in the last few years say it's not just women that stay under that minimum requirement... yet you wouldn't say men aren't gonna be in the army because most choose to eat too much and not exercise... i mean if most of them do that it must be what men do right...

And you mean..? Nobody complains (or if there are some who complain, they're very few), the vast majority of the women have absolutely no interest in the soldier profession but still it is a problem, "discrimination", violation of rights? :rolleyes:


I'm pretty sure most women would be a bit annoyed at least by someone saying that they aren't good soldiers.

Of course, as i tried to point out a million times already, it also depends on the prevailing social norms... at one time i'm sure most women would have told you that they are very happy being bare-foot and pregnant... i suggest reading Plato's The Cave for a more in-depth look at that concept.

Seriously now, I completely support the civil liberties idea and even could be quite drastic about it at times but one gotta apply some gray matter even regarding what he likes. Some claims here are borderline ridiculous. Come on people, don't you have girlfriends? Don't you communicate with girls/women? Go ask them what do they think about the army life. You'll be frequently answered that they like soldiers but I'll be very surprised if you get more than a few responses that they would like to become soldiers. Or you live on some other planet?


I also know a lot of men that would not want to become a soldier... and some women that have traditionally male hobbies... might i suggest that it's you that doesn't seem to have a diverse enough circle of female friends?!


jeff wrote:Political debates have a habit of ending very badly on this forum.


Someone needs to visit other forums if he thinks any thread has ended badly here ever...
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Postby dark-whisperer » Feb 13 2011, 17:01

I cant help to laugh reading last few "gender oppression" posts. It reminds me of Monty Python's "Life of Brian" where one of men is fighting for right to be pregnant.
You people who are "defending" female rights are just trying too hard.
Its like you are saying that olympic woman runner can run as fast olympic man runner, or that they can throw olympic spear as far as men and that she has every right to run as fast or throw as far :) LOL!
Are you searching ways to fight even if there there is no real reason? You really think that weaponless nun has the right to be on medieval battlefield - so be it - she has every right to be slaughtered - no argue there.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 17:08

dark-whisperer wrote:You really think that weaponless nun has the right to be on medieval battlefield - so be it - she has every right to be slaughtered - no argue there.


Yes, because if it was a weapon-less man instead he would totally belong and not get slaughter...

Its like you are saying that olympic woman runner can run as fast olympic man runner, or that they can throw olympic spear as far as men and that she has every right to run as fast or throw as far smile LOL!


No, what i'm saying is that if you're gonna take a man that can't run as fast as an averadge male olympic runner and let him run in the race there's no objective reason why you wouldn't let a woman do the same...

Giant difference that some people can't seem to grasp...
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Postby jeff » Feb 13 2011, 17:12

ThunderTitan wrote:
jeff wrote:Political debates have a habit of ending very badly on this forum.


Someone needs to visit other forums if he thinks any thread has ended badly here ever...


TT there use to be a whole sub-forum here (can't remember the name now) for these type of discussions. It was closed for that very reason.
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Postby dark-whisperer » Feb 13 2011, 17:17

Whole concept of praying man/woman on battlefield is just stupid. I really don't think that women are so keen exercise the right to be in front line on the battlefield. Can you accept the fact that men are just physically stronger and have more stamina and that is extreme advantage in fight modern or medieval?
If there are two groups, one pure male and one pure female both constituted by average persons and same number, fighting against each other I would put my money on male group - not because I'm male pig but because they have much greater chance to win. Pure and simple.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 17:23

jeff wrote:TT there use to be a whole sub-forum here (can't remember the name now) for these type of discussions. It was closed for that very reason.


It was closed because the mods didn't want anyone to get offended in the slightest...

And as i recall they never did add another sub-forum for it as i requested, they just clamped down on any thread in the Campfire that showed any signs of an actual RL discussion taking place... which lead to Corribus not coming here any more. And Probably GOW too.

And what i mean was that, while spirited, it never degenerated into what most of this type of discussion does on the internet, which is screaming non-sense and insults at one another for pages.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 17:34

dark-whisperer wrote:Whole concept of praying man/woman on battlefield is just stupid. I really don't think that women are so keen exercise the right to be in front line on the battlefield.


This whole thing started because Zenofex said so many women shouldn't be on the BF... which has little to do with whether they want to or not, i'm just humouring him instead of calling him out because it's fun.

And like i said before, old dude in robes is also ridiculous... until you add in the fact that there's magic in their world...

Can you accept the fact that men are just physically stronger and have more stamina and that is extreme advantage in fight modern or medieval?


Sure, just like i can accept the fact that i'll never be Mr. Universe or the Governator of California... but weirdly no one will argue i can't be on a BF just because Arhnold is stronger then i'll ever be.

dark-whisperer wrote:If there are two groups, one pure male and one pure female both constituted by average persons and same number, fighting with swords against each other I would put my money on male group - not because I'm male pig but because they have much greater chance to win. Pure and simple.


Point is that they're not average, being a soldier takes training... and a good tactician would easily lead any of those groups to victory in a real battle instead of the un-organized melee you're thinking of.
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Postby dark-whisperer » Feb 13 2011, 17:51

Hey, wait a minute... You strongly support women right to be on battlefield, you don't object the fact that Radiant Glory is practically naked woman with strips of light covering her private parts. I guess you don't have problem with dungeon brothel in Heroes V... maybe I miss judged you :P

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Postby vicheron » Feb 13 2011, 22:00

dark-whisperer wrote:Hey, wait a minute... You strongly support women right to be on battlefield, you don't object the fact that Radiant Glory is practically naked woman with strips of light covering her private parts. I guess you don't have problem with dungeon brothel in Heroes V... maybe I miss judged you :P


Radiant Glory is not human, they just look human. There's nothing wrong with ghosts wearing light clothing or unicorns and dragons being completely naked.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 13 2011, 22:32

Mirez wrote:Lets talk about the game yes?

If the company actually released some new meaningful info, people might do that.

dark-whisperer wrote: You people who are "defending" female rights are just trying too hard. Are you searching ways to fight even if there there is no real reason?


The reason is because some people advanced sexist arguments without sufficient justification and I won't stand idly by and let that go unchallenged. TT's doing most of the work though.

I'll just emphasize again that people are saying women are innately weaker and shouldn't fight without recognizing the social and cultural forces that affect women which might explain why people think women are weak and it is not their role. These notions are so deeply institutionalized that some people can't see how this prioritizes men’s experiences and perpetuates sexism.

The other thing that has been said a lot is that women shouldn't be on the battlefield because of their reproductive organs or for their own protection. Aside from the misguided view that women exist mainly to give birth for men, it neglects how women are overwhelmingly the greatest victims of war in the form of economic harm or sexual violence. Anyway, having a penis or vagina shouldn't be requirement or demerit for most jobs.

Welcome to the forums, by the way. It's nice to have people join for reasons that have nothing to do with H6 on the H6 forum.

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Postby Tress » Feb 13 2011, 22:32

Well sister is nun, and nun is nun, so no problem with that there. After all no one complained that in disciples for example one branch of priests were female.
Radiant spirit on other hand, until some people(i presume with messed up fantasy) started complain that she has no pants, I didnt even thought on that since she seemed so alien, I didnt even considered her human. Under such pretenses we should be ashamed when watching Winnie the pooh as he is not wearing pants.
Must agree that dark elves with their warhammer stylistic were to take them seriously, but other than that I have little complaints. I hope noone is complaining about succubus units , after all that is what they should look like, otherwise they aren't doing their job right, as I only know one fiction where is succubus who is chaste.

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Postby Zenofex » Feb 14 2011, 8:39

The only reason why women get offered and accept less money is because there are still deep seated social norms affecting us, no matter how much we say they're not...

Hence why women aren't into joining the army and why you think they're not made for it in the first place...

You aren't saying anything, this social norms thing is a huge generalization which can not be applied to the special case of the army recruitment. And here's your mistake.

I'm not the one mistaking one argument for it's opposite, am i.

Actually if you read my previous posts carefully, you'll find out that's exactly what you do.


That's pretty obvious.

The absence of meaning is usually obvious, yes.

Obesity rates in the last few years say it's not just women that stay under that minimum requirement... yet you wouldn't say men aren't gonna be in the army because most choose to eat too much and not exercise... i mean if most of them do that it must be what men do right...

Are you in the US? If yes, maybe this is so there but in this case you forget that there are only 300 million people living in the said country. Out of more than 6 billion on the entire planet. :) But anyway, this is no argument, you are just trying too hard to fabricate something because there aren't really many things that can be said in defence of your position. Obesity... :loll:

I'm pretty sure most women would be a bit annoyed at least by someone saying that they aren't good soldiers.

Of course, as i tried to point out a million times already, it also depends on the prevailing social norms... at one time i'm sure most women would have told you that they are very happy being bare-foot and pregnant... i suggest reading Plato's The Cave for a more in-depth look at that concept.

First - Plato is an opponent of the democracy and almost all of its value, what does he have to do with this subject? I'd quote him if I want to prove that it's a good thing to have a caste-based society.
Second - if you are so pretty sure, find me some researches on the subject, historical mass demonstrations about it, ongoing court lawsuits - whatever you want. But with more than 2-3 participants, please! And not just "annoyed" women - nobody is claiming that he/she's discriminated because something annoys him/her and that's great because otherwise nobody would be able to get out of the court room for his/her entire life. Give me something material.

I also know a lot of men that would not want to become a soldier... and some women that have traditionally male hobbies... might i suggest that it's you that doesn't seem to have a diverse enough circle of female friends?!

Ahem, and how many of the girls you know want or ever wanted to become soldiers? Give me exact figures. Also, if you want it to be scientific, you may also bring some statistical information about the part of the female work force that wants to join the army compared to the male workforce. Otherwise just admit that you're defending some theory that doesn't need defenders at all.

Lets talk about the game yes?

Of course, but I have to wait for my platoon of Chinese super-hackers to break into Ubisoft's super-secret database and steal something which is worth even 5 minutes of discussion.
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Postby dark-whisperer » Feb 14 2011, 10:10

mr.hackcrag wrote:Welcome to the forums, by the way. It's nice to have people join for reasons that have nothing to do with H6 on the H6 forum.

Thanks. Ive been around for a while and having so little news worth mentioning about the game I was just lurking. But this social debate sounded interesting :)

What I still find amusing is that no one objects when they see half naked woman game model bearing see trough scarf around bust and humble loincloth or no cloth at all. Radiant Glory does not look like a woman like Klark Kent doesn't look like Superman... So there is no problem making them sexual objects. But when someone states that he has problem with so many woman on battlefield then "female rights watch" jumps to the rescue.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 14 2011, 12:11

Zenofex wrote:You aren't saying anything, this social norms thing is a huge generalization which can not be applied to the special case of the army recruitment. And here's your mistake.


Yeah, it's not like you're ignoring how necessity, like in the case of the israelis, trumps the social norms that exclude women from mandatory recruitment in most places, and very likely lead to low voluntary recruitment...



Actually if you read my previous posts carefully, you'll find out that's exactly what you do.


Nah, i'm just having fun watching you argue against a strawman of what i said...

And that's not even getting into the tortured logic you use (women don't want to fight -> they aren't capable to fight or women aren't as capable as men at something -> they're useless at that thing).

The absence of meaning is usually obvious, yes.


Sure, because actually trying to figure it out is too hard, so why not dismiss it as gibberish...

Are you in the US? If yes, maybe this is so there but in this case you forget that there are only 300 million people living in the said country. Out of more than 6 billion on the entire planet. :) But anyway, this is no argument, you are just trying too hard to fabricate something because there aren't really many things that can be said in defence of your position. Obesity... :loll:


Actually the rest of the developed world is catching up to the US in that regard: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11730091

And heaven forbid you try to understand an analogy about your mistakes in logic.

First - Plato is an opponent of the democracy and almost all of its value, what does he have to do with this subject? I'd quote him if I want to prove that it's a good thing to have a caste-based society.


The fact that you don't even know about the allegory makes you quite unqualified to talk about Plato.

And dismissing one claim of someone based on another, unrelated claim is something you should learn not to do any more, it will really help you if you ever want to do anything that has something to do with logic.

Second - if you are so pretty sure, find me some researches on the subject, historical mass demonstrations about it, ongoing court lawsuits - whatever you want. But with more than 2-3 participants, please! And not just "annoyed" women - nobody is claiming that he/she's discriminated because something annoys him/her and that's great because otherwise nobody would be able to get out of the court room for his/her entire life. Give me something material.


Right, they just let women join the army while no on was demanding such a thing... just like they repealed Don't ask Don't tell even if no homosexuals where complaining about it...

Ahem, and how many of the girls you know want or ever wanted to become soldiers? Give me exact figures. Also, if you want it to be scientific, you may also bring some statistical information about the part of the female work force that wants to join the army compared to the male workforce. Otherwise just admit that you're defending some theory that doesn't need defenders at all.


About as many as men i know that want to become soldiers... about zero. does me not knowing any men that want to be soldiers mean i should complain about male units in the game?

But you seem to have missed the point that wanting to and being a good addition to the army are two different things... ask Joan of Arc.


dark-whisperer wrote:What I still find amusing is that no one objects when they see half naked woman game model bearing see trough scarf around bust and humble loincloth or no cloth at all.


I find it funny how you think that's relevant for whether or not there are too many female units... especially since the nun seems to be the most used example of how they don't belong and she's covered head to toe.

And that discussion was already had around the time of the S&M Dungeon's reveal for H5... it even went as far as wondering if the crotch protector wasn't hiding extra equipment.
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