HMM Tournament Edition

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Horn
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HMM Tournament Edition

Postby Horn » Jan 19 2006, 16:08

Hi All!

Because of Kalah said that Forumplanet WoG forum can be closed soon, I deside to repost this topic there.
--------reposting begins----------

I represent you our HMM Tournament Edition (shortly - TE). It's multiplayer WoG-based addon, which was released at the year gone. Current version (1.03f) is the 6th, and previous ones weren't linked to there because of absence of the manual in English. But now we have the version, that stable enough. There was December LAN championship on it, and an internet tournament is taking place now too (both among the Russian-speaking community).

Link for TE downloading: http://www.heroesleague.ru/show/1268/TE_v1_03f.rar
There are the game itself (install over WoG3.58f), set of tournament maps with description and the manual (it can be seen to the separate link: http://www.heroesleague.ru/show/1346/TE_Manual(eng).doc)

What is TE? It was designed in 2002 by group of russian myltiplayer gamers as a Heroes "sports version". And the WoG provided us with necessary tools. :)
The three aims of TE are
1) variety of strategies,
2) balance,
3) interface convenience
.
You can see what we've done, but bear in mind that it's only mmm... about 20% of what we are planning. :-D
What are we going to do next? Give all the monsters ability to cast spells (there would be special spells, not from M.Guild!), remake all morale/luck/resistance system, add many new map objects... and so on. Probably we will include some more WoG scripts (f.e. towns and buildings demolition can be added if ZVS will modify it slightly), ... but the most of WoG masterpieces have the "singleplayer only" label. I am almost sure about it. Multiplayer "sports" version could be done in very many ways, but it anyway is strong different from "WoG for singleplayer".

You can send all your questions, comments and proposals by e-mail (horn_hl@yahoo.com) or ICQ (286955870). If somebody wants to take part in TE development, we will be greatly pleased. ;)

Horn, TE-team leader.

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Postby golfleme » Jan 19 2006, 18:35

Hi,
How nice is to read this! My main complaint was about the MP in WoG.
I'll try this ASAP.

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Maps

Postby Pollo2002 » Jan 24 2006, 11:14

What maps and RMG templates are suggested to play this patch?

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Re: Maps

Postby Horn » Jan 24 2006, 12:45

Pollo2002 wrote:What maps and RMG templates are suggested to play this patch?

A row of tournament maps are inside the TE archive. Now I'm creating some other special MP maps.
As for templates, AFAIR 2SM4d, 2SM4d(2), 2SM4d(3), 4SM0d, 8MM6 and 8XM612 are most popular. If you want, I can request corresponding rmg file (I don't play random maps myself) and forward it to you.

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TM1

Postby Horn » Jan 29 2006, 15:18

Masters Tournament has started on HeroesLeague!

Do you want to play uncommon interesting maps? Are you skilled enough to challenge strongest HeroesLeague players? And finally, would you get a $50 prize? :)

Then you are welcome!
The first HL Open Masters Tournament of season 2006 is offline arena competition, i.e. participants play in single mode, starting from one common save and then send final saves to the referees. The referees make arena (a small map with two heroes only) and custom heroes on it according to opponents' saves, includind skills, armies, artifacts, spells - the full info. Then the heroes battles against each other, and whose hero wins, those player goes to next tour.

Tournament Rules, first tour map description and start save you can find there: http://forum.heroesleague.ru/viewtopic.php?t=1452

Though TE is multiplayer-oriented addon, we develop offline tournaments too. They may help players to get used to TE features, show them most popular maps. Moreover, playing offline imrpoves some online player's skills such as tactical combat and theoretical training. B-)

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Postby jorko80 » Jan 31 2006, 12:16

Hello Horn!
I have two things to report about the TE version.
1. The summoning stones are not working. In the manual,it says that you can summon army once a day,but when I summon it once,they are not working for the whole game.
2.The hero Ryland(Dendroid specialist) doesn't give the growth bonus of dendroids. I'm 7th level,but I have built the Dendroid Saplings,which is also increasing the growth by 2 and maybe this is the problem. Another thing is that I am 7th level but I'm also a Governor,but the manual doesn't say that it is forbidden to increase the growth rate twice.
Can you add a patch to fix those two things,or can you explain if I'm wrong.
Thank you!

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Postby Horn » Jan 31 2006, 13:37

jorko80 wrote:1. The summoning stones are not working. In the manual,it says that you can summon army once a day,but when I summon it once,they are not working for the whole game.

That's strange, because AFAIR I haven't changed summoning stones script at all. But I'll see. Can you send me the save to horn_hl@yahoo.com?
2.The hero Ryland(Dendroid specialist) doesn't give the growth bonus of dendroids. I'm 7th level,but I have built the Dendroid Saplings,which is also increasing the growth by 2 and maybe this is the problem.

Yes, you are right. This bug has been already detected, but not fixed yet. When adding something to creature population, script03 checks if corresponding building (base or upgrade) has been built. And because of horde growth building replaces the dwelling, the answer is "No", so nothing is added. :(

These bugs aren't critical, so I don't plan to make a patch (I try to avoid mess, when some players have patched version and others have old one). But in 1.04 all detected bugs will be surely fixed.
Thank you a lot for reporting.

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new MP map

Postby Horn » Feb 6 2006, 15:50

The multiplayer version of the "Immortal Guards" map is released and can be downloaded there. Don't forget to read description before playing!
The map is intended for 1x1 play, but 2x2 mode is possible too.
You will encounter not only rebirthing neutral monsters, but also mixed ones (as in HMM4) along with some other interesting features...

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Re: TM1

Postby val-gaav » Mar 25 2006, 9:59

Well .... firstly I'm going to say that I'm impressed :)
Thanx to your patch diplomacy and h&r are out of the game ... also the problem with scrools on random maps is solved ... It's just great !!!

but now I'll have to criticise wog te a bit :(

Most online players do not want to play wog ... they want to play good old heroes 3 SoD ... So it would be great if u made version of your patch with install not requireing wog . Besides most of the scripts that are in wog like commanders , extra dwellings etc totally brreak the balance . Atempt to balance all wog scripts in all possible combintion is futile IMO.

Instead of giving new spells etc you should work on more complicated things like for example implementing simultanous turn in the early game (untill players can meat).... Yes I do know that it's almost impossible , but most online players would welcome a faster game ....

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Re: TM1

Postby Horn » Mar 30 2006, 15:08

val-gaav wrote:Most online players do not want to play wog ... they want to play good old heroes 3 SoD
Most of those online players that I know (several dozens, I suppose) don't want play "good old SoD" after playing TE. B-) They tell that TE, comparing with SoD, is greatly mort balanced. Can you find any faction, which is considerably weaker then others?
So it would be great if u made version of your patch with install not requireing wog.
It's impossible, because TE uses ERM, and ERM is the essence of WoG.
Besides most of the scripts that are in wog like commanders , extra dwellings etc totally brreak the balance . Atempt to balance all wog scripts in all possible combintion is futile IMO.
I agree. TE don't include things, that you've mentioned (commanders, extra dwellings). Also there are no randomly replaced objects at game start, spell bonuses for high-ranked monsters etc.
Instead of giving new spells etc you should work on more complicated things like for example implementing simultanous turn in the early game (untill players can meat).... Yes I do know that it's almost impossible
It's completely impossible (not only for us, neither Ubisoft nor the Lord can do it), because it's impossible to calculate when the simultanous turn mode should be canceled.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Apr 10 2006, 22:31

The only reason i don't play more homm3 and that TE can't solve is the possibility of your opponents to watch save games on other computer :(

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Postby val-gaav » Apr 17 2006, 17:37

Pollo2002 wrote:The only reason i don't play more homm3 and that TE can't solve is the possibility of your opponents to watch save games on other computer :(


Then how about giving 2 paasswords for save ??? One for one player ,another for second player ...

If anybody wanted to load the 2 player game it would work only with internet conection and both players should give theirs password before the load ...



Also in case of random generated maps it would be great if they were not saved to folder "randommaps" but deleted .... Uhmmm they should exist only inside the save game :)
..............

Another thing for Random maps ... It would be great if things like missplaced guards didn't happen .... What is more sometimes there is no passage beetwen 2 players ... absolutly no passage !!! Yes it's like 1% of all map generating but this does happen ...
It would be great to see rhis fixed.

it's completely impossible (not only for us, neither Ubisoft nor the Lord can do it), because it's impossible to calculate when the simultanous turn mode should be canceled.

well I know a bit about programing and I may understand that this maybe impossible without source code ... but if the source code was present it would be possible , complicated but possible ...

How to calculate when the mode should end ? ... Well it's simple :
-calculate movements of red hero ... see if any of them can reach blue player ... Add to this possible teleports ...
+ the movement should be increased a bit for every hero with all possible buildings on map that gives him additional movement ... It would be better if we checked if there are such buildings on map ... but to make it easier we may always add this bonus

If the palyers cannot reach each other the turn is played simultanouss if they can it's normal mode .

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Postby Horn » Apr 20 2006, 12:31

val-gaav wrote:Then how about giving 2 paasswords for save ??? One for one player ,another for second player ...
We can't fulfil it now (by technical reasons), but this item is in our ToDo list.
Also in case of random generated maps it would be great if they were not saved to folder "randommaps" but deleted
Hmm... whether there is 'delete file' command in ERM? I suppose, not yet. But I will bear in mind this wish too. Thanks.
Another thing for Random maps ... It would be great if things like missplaced guards didn't happen .... What is more sometimes there is no passage beetwen 2 players ... absolutly no passage !!! Yes it's like 1% of all map generating but this does happen ...
How can we deside, which object is guarded by the monster? I saw some cases, when humans weren't sure about it. So how will script know whether guards misplaced or not?
It's easier to detect 'No passage' cases. But how to correct them without imbalancing? Where should we place connecting teleports, which guadrs should we provide for them?
How to calculate when the mode should end ? ... Well it's simple :
-calculate movements of red hero ... see if any of them can reach blue player .
Suppose no hero can reach enemy, but two heroes can reach a valuable object between them. Ah?
Also we need verification of this condition (nobody reaches enemy) after every step of every hero. While playing by network, we should send/receive data after every step. Traffic will increase greatly, I think.

So I advise to play custom maps. ;) Soon I'm going to make some, which are more interesting than random. B-)

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Postby val-gaav » Apr 21 2006, 10:17

Horn wrote:Suppose no hero can reach enemy, but two heroes can reach a valuable object between them. Ah?

Good point ... but objects (or rather entrance to it) is always one hex ... so just make a one hex reserve

Also we need verification of this condition (nobody reaches enemy) after every step of every hero. While playing by network, we should send/receive data after every step. Traffic will increase greatly, I think.

Well that's true that traffic would increase ... and it may be a problem ... However it would not be aftrer every step of hero ... It would be when the both players end the turn ... the data transfered should be all heroes position and movement for next round .... But yes it would increase traffic.

Hmm... whether there is 'delete file' command in ERM? I suppose, not yet.

There is no delete file command in ERM ...


As for Randommaps :
I guess (and I know a bit of ERM) that it's impossible to improve the randommap generator with ERM ... It surely looks like hardcoded option :)...

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Postby Pollo2002 » Apr 21 2006, 23:01

I really would like to have an option to make that in every spell Spellpower matter, other than the duration, Like stoneskin give 1 defense every two levels and the like

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Postby Pollo2002 » Apr 22 2006, 6:43

Hi, down i will write a list of things i would like to be done that i didn't see done.
I would like to have a group of scripts or whatever that allow me to have that, i would also like in that group several other scripts but that i've seen done.
Of course i just gave some idea of what i want but not exact information (the last would be if i get an arrangement)
I wanted those stuff done.
If anyone wanna contact me because you are interested to do this work, i'm willing to pay for it, please contact me at ***Alexkidd103@hotmail***(i would prefer you to add me to msn), and we can talk what you can, what you can't do , in how much time, and of course the price for the work and how could we arrange a method of payment. Thanks


Units:
Make units skills chargeable and it's effect relative to the power of the stack to the power of the defense.
Chargeable example: For example, unicorns every 3 turns can do a Blind attack.
Relativity example: Blind time=(Unicorn attack*Number of unicorns in the stack)/(defender defense*Number of defenders)


Make easier to give attack multipliers to units like "marksman hates dendroids, 1.5 attack vs dendroids"

Spells:
Make most/all spells be affected by spellpower
Example: Haste gives "speed=spellpower/1,5" so for example a 12 spellpower haste would give +8 speed. On the other hand this is how dispel would work. if you cast a dispel on a 12 spellpower haste with a 4 spellpower dispell, the haste would still be there, but would act as a 8 spellpower haste instead of 12(giving only +6 speed).

Make magueguilds work like black markets. So you buy the spells that go to your mageguild.

Terrain:
Change the bonus that grass gives to rampart etc.

Savegames:
Make some tool to prevent one player to watch the savegame when playing online

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Postby Shark » Apr 25 2006, 19:40

val-gaav, your way of detecting simultaneous turns sucks...
first, what if the other guy has fly/flight ? what if he has dimension door ? if he has, what level is it ? ... you mentioned checking teleports, checking all teleports on the map is bound to return true unless by the "enemy" you mean "the enemy's main stack"... plus, in the normal turn mode, when the other player combats, the other one waits and synchronises, and then they switch turns; what happens if they both combat at the same time ? and if one finishes his combat before the other guy ? just imagine that Tower built a grail or even better, a player visits the treetop lodge and leaves to combat somewhere where the other player cannot reach him so the simultaneous turn mode is still on... while he combats, the other player pops up using his dimension door or something, and starts clearing the area around the treetop lodge, when the first player finishes his combat, he will notice that the area before he went to combat and the area now is not the same, and player 2 is nowhere to be seen... Heroes 3 is not made for simultaneous play and whose turn would it be on a Sim-Turn ? and whose would it be after the Sim-Turn ? or even better, after the second Sim-Turn ?

there's more than a dozen flaws to your system, plus your system would choke the game with increased sync checks that actually can't sync...

with the source code, we could change the whole concept of the game ( curently the game works like this, a player hits the end button, set player_turn[i]=player_turn[i]++; give turn to player[i++]; i%=number_of_players) to maybe even a RTS with days advancing every minute or so... but sim. battles would still cause de-sync IMHO...

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Postby val-gaav » Apr 25 2006, 20:01

I do not see problem with "simultanous fights" ... One player fights somewhere , another fights somewhere ...

At start all players begin at day one ... The turn is ended when both press hourglass .... If they can reach each other the game turns into normal mode ... Red player has day 5 then after him blue has day 5 ...

The only thing that is the problem is DD, Fly and Town portal ... Here however it's preety simple just ban this spells ... If u do not want to ban them just do not turn the simultanous turn mode ... However most of players already ban DD fly in games .. Many do so also with TP ... so ???

and I would never want to make an RTS from h3 :)

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Postby Shark » Apr 26 2006, 9:57

simultaneous fights could be made IF and only IF the whole concept of homm3 was changed... they could be possible if there was a server running and the users start the client program that connects to the server that controls all the players and the data, while the clients would only show stuff... the way homm3 works now is that one player is a server, and on that players turn, the other player is controling him and synchronizing, and on the other players turn, the server is synchronizing and controling... what i meant to say all along is -- homm3 is made for one active player at a time only, and if you wanted to make simultaneous moves, you would need to think of a way to restructure everything... just imagine 8 player simultaneous moves !! it would be even harder to do "sim if they can't reach each other, normal if they can" because there wouldn't be accurate calculations, and someone would always complain that he lost because of that one turn...

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Postby val-gaav » Apr 26 2006, 11:25

So I guess the only problem is game mechanics and becouse it'sdifficult to do ????

BTW : Most MP games take part on 2 player maps only .... So the 8 player thing is also not a big problem ...


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