Heroes WOG problems

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chaos_dragon
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Heroes WOG problems

Postby chaos_dragon » Nov 3 2006, 15:49

I have been trying to get WOG running properly ever since its release and still have the same problems. I've reinstalled Heroes complete 4 times and on 2 computers. I play large and extra large custom built maps with lots of stuff to do on them. My problems are always the same.

1. AI heroes mysteriously acquire free legions of monsters on any given day of the week without warning or apparent relation to any particular hero or castle. They also experience creature growth while adventuring for no apparent reason. Obviously this makes the game extremely difficult to beat when AI attacks me with 65K archers etc. The free legions seem to usually be level 1's or 2's but can appear on an AI hero as early as week 2 and don't even alwats match the heroes castle type. This usually only happens to one or two heroes at one time which is strange. Sometimes it may happen as late as month 4 or 5. I've even tested this on a tiny test map fully revealed just to watch the AI's creature growth and erroneous legions. Funny thing is I thought the maximum stack size was around 32K but have seen as many as 90K in one stack on AI hero. Never happens to human heroes only AI.

2. AI hero movement. It seems around month 3 or later on large maps one or two AI heroes eventually start getting excessive movement steps allowing them to clean out the map rather quickly. It starts off being couple hundred steps per turn. Few turns later the movement steps will be over 1000, yes I have counted them. Obviously there's no combination of skills, artifacts, or other bonuses that can legitimately give a hero this kind of movement, both on land and sea. Never happens to human heroes only AI.

3. Usually around month 3 but occasionally sooner, entering one of the basic stores (dwarven treasury, medusa stores, griffin conservatory etc) gives me the infamous black screen with busy hourglass cursor. The game hangs.

My first installation was heroes the AB then SOD followed by patches. Then full Allinone wog installation and patches to 3.58f. I then tried the Heroes complete installation with patches then allinone wog installation and patch to 3.58f. I've tried a few times with always the same results. Would sure like to finally get this running but am really frustrated. I don't care about minor bugs and such but I would like to be able to finish a game I start without crashing or endless cheating by AI heroes.

If I knew what triggers these events perhaps I could design maps to avoid them. Is there some limits to objects placed etc, map size, monster quantities etc etc etc that are being exceeded and causing problems.

Hope someone can shed some light and insight on this that will eventually lead to a solution.

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Postby Pol » Nov 3 2006, 16:07

I never encoutered these problems, which version of Homm are you using? The WoG should comply with Complete or individual editons in english or russian provided by 3DO without problems...

It's always on big maps? How big is save? Which scripts are running?
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Re: Heroes WOG problems

Postby Psyringe » Nov 3 2006, 17:45

chaos_dragon wrote:My first installation was heroes the AB then SOD followed by patches. Then full Allinone wog installation and patches to 3.58f. I then tried the Heroes complete installation with patches then allinone wog installation and patch to 3.58f. I've tried a few times with always the same results. Would sure like to finally get this running but am really frustrated. I don't care about minor bugs and such but I would like to be able to finish a game I start without crashing or endless cheating by AI heroes.


I'm unaware of patches for Heroes 3 Complete - isn't this edition already patched up? There also is a WoG "allinone" version that already *is* on patchlevel 3.58f. Could your problems have originated from applying patches unnecessarily?

I may talk utter nonsense though, my knowledge about HoMM technical issues is small. It just caught my attention that you applied patches and have problems that I don't have (and I have Heroes 3 Complete plus WoG 3.58f, and didn't apply any patches). If you like, you could send me one of your maps and I could check whether I run across the same problems. Might take a while though, as I'm unfortunately rather busy at the moment.

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Postby Fnord » Nov 3 2006, 18:55

The growing stack size and ever-increasing movement seem rather bizarre. There is an option for growing stack size in hero armies but that applies to all players equally.

The crash could possibly be a script bug (hopefully fixed in the script updates that will be released soon).

Are you using any customized scripts or new scripts?

What's the highest numbered script in your Data\s folder?
- Fnord

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Heroes problems

Postby ChaosDragon » Nov 3 2006, 21:00

The first time I enountered the erroneous legions was long before playing WOG. SOD had just come out and installed and it happened one time only on the map "myths and legends". From what I gathered at the time the patches apparently rectified this. Yes I patched at the time using the sd30 to 32 patch. After that WOG came out and I installed it, had the above mentioned problems 1&2 but not 3 yet. Each time a new WOG version came out I reinstalled everything hoping to fix problem 1&2. Each install met with the same results. Finally WOG 3.58 came out and I resinstalled again to that point and then the patch. Still the same problem 1&2. At that point I decided to try buying the Heroes complete CD which I found cheap. Did another fresh install from scratch. Installed the sd30-32 patch. Installed WOG 3.58 (allinone). Installed the patch for 3.58f. Problems 1&2 still there and now problem 3 of the hanging when entering the original stores. From the old round table I saw mentioned others who had found this issue with Heroes complete CD. Possibly theres nothing that can be done. This is extremely irritating so I'm looking if anyone ever found a solution. My best guess at this point is there's some sort of object database limit that I've exceeded on my maps ( my maps are pretty loaded). Funny thing is the only objects that are affected are the original stores type objects from heroes, including Dwarven treasury, medusa store, imp cache, griffin conservatory, cyclops treasure, naga bank. I could probably delete all of these from my maps to prevent this issue, but what a waste.

Yes I've written many many scripts with many of the new objects. After extensive play testing have them all working 100%, most of them deal only with battling creatures for treasures, skills, spells etc. Many of the individually written scripts from WOG I have now replaced with my custom scripts as they use the same objects and I prefer my scripts. In each and every case I have been extremely careful with the "used variables' list as to not create a problem that way. BTW there was a couple variables used in WOG scripts where the variables were not listed on the claimed list from the ERM editor. While I was having the problems with the erroneous growth and free legions, none of my scripts gave more than 1 creature when visited and none of them gave any movement what so ever. In fact these problems appeared back when I only had 1 custom script, very simple at the time as I was learning ERM scripting. Unfortunately now with my WOG being customized so much for my maps with all my new scripts ( about 30 of them) its impossible to send my map for someone else to play and test at this time. If I can ever get rid of these issues I may make all of my maps and scripts available for whoever might want them, but again requires specializing the script data file to replace many previous scripts with my own.

Back to problems. I've been so frustrated I wrote my own script to check AI heroes daily for their cheating in movement or creatures and compensates for them. This seems to be catching most of the occurences of cheating AI's. The one problem I simply can't fix or create of script to check for is the problem 3, black screen hanging when entering basic stores structures.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I know there are other bugs out there that possibly could be compounding on themselves and maybe eventually create instabilities which in later months may be creating these problems. For instance playing single player mode, I watched an AI hero attack my empty castle. Crashed the game with a message something like "not supported in human vs human combat" or words to that affect.

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Postby ChaosDragon » Nov 3 2006, 21:08

Yes I have many customized scripts. I've kept them all within 99 by replacing many I've no intention of using or ones that conflict with mine due to using the same objects.

This makes me leary about further versions as the variable list is extremely tight after including my scripts. Was a nightmare to adjust my scripts after the last WOG update lol. There simply aren't enough variables to go around.

Please note the problems started BEFORE I started writing scripts, thus I know my scripts are not the problem. Potentially my map size and object frequency is. The reason I make my own maps etc is because I hate playing an empty map where you hire a few dwarves and go finish the map. My maps are intricate and difficult and force you to accumulate a large army as quickly as possible as the AI's are getting a huge advantage from the get go by events, start up conditions, etc.

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Postby Pol » Nov 3 2006, 21:39

black screen hanging when entering basic stores structures.


If this happened only in WoG it may be caused by Luck script. I think that it was solved in latest script updates.

And what is sd30-32 patch?

Scripts can be imported with map btw. And sure here are problems with big stacks or maps it's ingame limitation. WoG doesn't changed this...
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Postby ChaosDragon » Nov 3 2006, 21:50

Thanks I will look into the Luck script update, I fear the problem lies elsewhere though as this should cause the game to hang randomly in any possible battle circumstances should it not. Tha fact that mine are happening exclusively with the basic stores tells me there is probably a separate issue. Possibly with the guard growth option or the resetting of the 'visited' or something with these stores. Nevertheless I will try to integrate this new "luck" script.

Due to the quantity of scripts I've written and how they interact or don't interact with other scripts I've had to custom build the script file to ensure no conflicts and to simplify sharing of my maps and scripts with friends as well as creating new maps.

I suppose if anyone really wants them I could send a map and the custom scripts file they must use (as a mod).

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Postby Pol » Nov 3 2006, 22:08

If this is the cause wait, because:
Fnord wrote:The crash could possibly be a script bug (hopefully fixed in the script updates that will be released soon).

...it will be released soon. :D

And I suppose that Fnord may look at your scripts to help.... if needed.
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Re: Heroes problems

Postby Fnord » Nov 5 2006, 1:15

ChaosDragon wrote:The first time I enountered the erroneous legions was long before playing WOG. SOD had just come out and installed and it happened one time only on the map "myths and legends". From what I gathered at the time the patches apparently rectified this. Yes I patched at the time using the sd30 to 32 patch.


I remember there was a bug in RoE where the AI's troops would grow and it was fixed in a patch. I think it was fixed before SoD came out but I could be mistaken about that.

ChaosDragon wrote:After that WOG came out and I installed it, had the above mentioned problems 1&2 but not 3 yet. Each time a new WOG version came out I reinstalled everything hoping to fix problem 1&2. Each install met with the same results. Finally WOG 3.58 came out and I resinstalled again to that point and then the patch. Still the same problem 1&2. At that point I decided to try buying the Heroes complete CD which I found cheap. Did another fresh install from scratch. Installed the sd30-32 patch. Installed WOG 3.58 (allinone). Installed the patch for 3.58f. Problems 1&2 still there and now problem 3 of the hanging when entering the original stores.


Do you encounter this problem with standard maps or random maps or only with your own custom maps?

Or have you not really played any other maps so you can't really say?

ChaosDragon wrote: From the old round table I saw mentioned others who had found this issue with Heroes complete CD. Possibly theres nothing that can be done. This is extremely irritating so I'm looking if anyone ever found a solution. My best guess at this point is there's some sort of object database limit that I've exceeded on my maps ( my maps are pretty loaded).


I suppose it's possible, although if you only place the objects within the editor (and not try to exceed the limits of individual objects by placing extras with ERM) it should be fine...I think. Then again, you never know. If you do exceed the limits by using ERM, you'll almost certainly end up having internal memory structures overrun which could cause any number of strange errors.

ChaosDragon wrote: Funny thing is the only objects that are affected are the original stores type objects from heroes, including Dwarven treasury, medusa store, imp cache, griffin conservatory, cyclops treasure, naga bank. I could probably delete all of these from my maps to prevent this issue, but what a waste.


I seem to recall a crash bug with creature banks in 3.58 that was fixed in 3.58f. Are you sure you updated to 3.58f?

ChaosDragon wrote:Yes I've written many many scripts with many of the new objects. After extensive play testing have them all working 100%, most of them deal only with battling creatures for treasures, skills, spells etc. Many of the individually written scripts from WOG I have now replaced with my custom scripts as they use the same objects and I prefer my scripts. In each and every case I have been extremely careful with the "used variables' list as to not create a problem that way. BTW there was a couple variables used in WOG scripts where the variables were not listed on the claimed list from the ERM editor.


Yes, we encountered a few variables, Functions etc. that were missing. I hope we've caught all the missing ones now but with so many scripts, variables, script writers, updates etc. it's quite possible a few have still been missed (despite our best efforts).

ChaosDragon wrote: While I was having the problems with the erroneous growth and free legions, none of my scripts gave more than 1 creature when visited and none of them gave any movement what so ever. In fact these problems appeared back when I only had 1 custom script, very simple at the time as I was learning ERM scripting. Unfortunately now with my WOG being customized so much for my maps with all my new scripts ( about 30 of them) its impossible to send my map for someone else to play and test at this time. If I can ever get rid of these issues I may make all of my maps and scripts available for whoever might want them, but again requires specializing the script data file to replace many previous scripts with my own.


I think one problem now is that while many issues are fixed in the new script updates, many new variables, functions, etc. are also used so it's unlikely you could use these updates without a lot of work on your part.

ChaosDragon wrote:Back to problems. I've been so frustrated I wrote my own script to check AI heroes daily for their cheating in movement or creatures and compensates for them. This seems to be catching most of the occurences of cheating AI's. The one problem I simply can't fix or create of script to check for is the problem 3, black screen hanging when entering basic stores structures.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I know there are other bugs out there that possibly could be compounding on themselves and maybe eventually create instabilities which in later months may be creating these problems. For instance playing single player mode, I watched an AI hero attack my empty castle. Crashed the game with a message something like "not supported in human vs human combat" or words to that affect.


What I suggest is try playing your maps with no WoGification scripts enabled. If any of the problems still show up, it's not a script issue, but since nobody else has reported these problems, it's probably not really a WoG issue either, and may indeed be due to the number of objects on your map.

If however, you don't encounter the problems, you'll know it's a script issue and you can enable a few scripts at a time until the problems occur again. In this way you can track down which script or scripts are causing the bugs.

Due to your high level of customization, it would be almost impossible for the WoG team to be of much assistance in tracking down these problems since they also seem to be unique to your gaming experience at the moment, but if anyone else using standard scripts and maps does report these problems, we'll be sure to look into them.
- Fnord

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Postby ChaosDragon » Nov 10 2006, 2:34

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated. The luck enhancement script does appear to be the problem with the game hanging when entering basic structures. Simple enough to avoid using the script for the time being.

The other problems never showed up on former versions of my maps (pre WOG). I have tried small test maps that still produce the erroneous legions and excessive growth of monster stacks. I've seen it as early as day 8 but most often in month 3 or later. Never on any particular day or in relation to AI heroes visiting any particular structure. In fact I've spotted the legions showing up on a hero that never moved at all in its turn.

Each install of WOG I've tried includes the patch SD30 - SD32 followed by WOG installation (allinone) then finally installing the 3.58f patch.

I've always used the map editor only to place objects, so shouldnt be exceeding any normal map making restrictions. I've written a script to compensate for these problems by checking AI heroes on a daily basis and removing any excessive monster stacks or movement. Not the ideal solution but it does allow for the game to be played.

Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated.

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Postby Fnord » Nov 10 2006, 6:36

I suggest you try removing or renaming the Map Rules script from Data\s and see if the stack growth goes away.

If it does, it's likely connected to the 4% growth rule. Perhaps for some reason you have it enabled or used a function that's in that script in another script. Anyway, see what happens if the whole script isn't there.
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Postby ChaosDragon » Feb 17 2007, 16:32

I havw the "map rules" option disabled. None of my scripts play around with creature growth and have verified several times the uniqueness of all my variables to ensure avoidance of conflicting variables. I have written a script happening each day for each AI player checking for erroneous stacks and compensating for such. This seems to be more or less correcting the problem, at least enough to make the game playable.

The excessive AI hero movement that creeps in eventually is another issue which seems to occur more often with heros in boats. I've decided to eliminate extensive use of water from my maps as a result, and removed all lighthouses.

I've found I can now play a game all the way through, as long as I don't shut the game down. Saving and reloading the game crashes the game with references to scripts that are turned off in the options, typically the "passable terrain" option.

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re:

Postby doom3d » Feb 18 2007, 8:55

Hi,

Please, try to download the latest allinone.zip (3.58f version), and the Script Update. Copy Data/s to another location, reinstall WoG with these packages, and play a wogified 3do map (like Arrogance) without your scripts.
/allinone +Script Update, no patches please/ / You may add a Tower +grail/
http://wog.celestialheavens.com/

Maybe the 3.58f patch that you have is nok.
If it solves the problem, then try copy back your scripts.
If the problem is still there, then I don't know what's going here..

BTW, if you have so many scripts, why you don't join to WoG team? You could make variable/option reservations for You.

Best Regards

Doom3d

P.S. My small WoG mod can be found at http://doom3d.uw.hu

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Thanks but.....

Postby ChaosDragon » Feb 18 2007, 16:17

Thanks for your input. After many many reinstalls and tinkering with everything under the sun, I've come to the conclusion the problems have nothing to do with my scripts. As for joining the team and/or making my scripts available, I don't consider myself qualified to join the team. I do intend to make my scripts available in the form of a mod at some point when I'm totally satisfied with the stability of it. Hoping the team can fix the save game issue now which I have informed on a different thread. Once that is resolved I think I will have a fully working stable mod for all to enjoy if they like.


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