Water Mod

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Pollo2002
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Water Mod

Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 10 2010, 2:24

News:
12/26/10: Uploaded Divided Sand version 0.03. Just minor changes to improve functionality of the map.

I uploaded Divided sand version 0.02: I reverted several changes I did to slow the gameplay, but the version 0.01 ended too slow, so I reverted some changes like sawmills and ore pits do not have guards anymore, I shortened the distance of bottom and top town on the surface from enemy, and the most important change you start again with 5 towns instead of just 1.

Also I uploaded too green map version 0.01: I didnt play this map yet, just finished doing the scripts it needed. Its basically a map with no guards, but flagging towns and mines has a cost, (2500 and 1250 respectively). This map is entirely a prototype to see how that would play out, I DIDNT PLAY IT YET AGAINST A HUMAN. Just some against AI and against myself to test stuff, I didnt find time to play a full real game so I have no idea how it plays out in a real game.

Downloads :

Water Mod version 0.01:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2AE7RRZX

Divided Sand map, version 0.03:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B4NY3UXA

Too Green map version 0.01:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q2E2GEMJ


Intro:

Here is my version 0.01 of my mod. Have in mind Im uploading it to upload something. its "playable". But you can only play castle, this version compared to the old unnumbered version received hundred of changes so its barely play tested, and it has like 1% of the features I wish.
Still its good to have a feel of the gameplay I want to capture and I think its fun to playtest (at least it was fun for me and my friends to playtest previous versions.
If you have the will, the time, and the friend to test it, all feedback is welcome.

Suggestions and questions about "why you did that" are more than welcome.
If you want to use scripts i made and cant find what you need (Because its certainly a mess) Plz ask and I will send you or direct you to the script.
Also if you want to help creating objects I need or doing anything else I need (like adventure objects, scripts , description fixing and modifying defs,) Tell me and we'll talk about it, any help is more than welcome.

*************
MY MOD:

The objective of this mod is to make a strategy game with the following properties.

- Map control is the key of the game.
- Luck having the less significance possible, and at the same time avoid as much as possible the possibility to mathematically plan the game.
- Early and intensive interaction between human players.
- A balanced game, but still a varied game with several REAL options and that provide great amount of different possible starting positions.


CHANGES:

There is all the information I have now that I think will improve the game, it can change in the future.

First actual state of things, I take as base for changes the Tournament edition. I started from there, it has some nice scripts and changes and I recommend you to try it by yourself if you didn’t yet. If I didn’t change something It means I left it like it is in the tournament edition, not in standard WOG.

1)How maps should be for this project.

1.1)Maps
First of all the maps should be prepared according, everything else lacks of sense if the map aren’t rights. It means that the first change is that maps will be build very different for what’s known. I have built several maps but have deleted them; right now I have only one map that accomplishes what I meant. Here are the maps needs, I don’t have only a single map because I don’t know how to build more according but because I started the project little time ago and building and testing a map requires a LOT of time.

a) Map should enforce players to meet first week. And not in the “scouting” way but with brute force, that means the map should provide hot points where both players can access very early in the week. There should be several hot points, so if one player loses some hot points can still fight the others to regain advantage. Hot points should be of unlimited resource (mines and towns mostly) so they remain hot along the game.

b) Maps should have little to no artifacts. (still can have black markets) Artifacts allow concentrating a lot of power in one single hero, allowing one player to build a too powerful hero that can only be stopped by another too powerful hero, still maps should provide ways to improve hero, but those should be allowed to every hero (learning stones, trees from knowledge, arenas, etc). Still artifacts can be used as VERY hot points to break the game, for example if player has getting a huge advantage over the other player and one wants that the player can finish the game fast, giving access to a very powerful army to very powerful artifacts can work

c) Map should be build to nullify build orders at all cost, and provide lots of options since the start, so is a good idea to provide both players with several towns, heroes, and Resources, right from the start.

d) Map should be balanced to each side and each faction.

e) Map should provide ways to create shroud so to keep the game of incomplete information.

2) Gameplay changes:

2.1) Magic
Im changing how tower guilds work. The objective are 2, decrease luck involved and add interaction on spells.
You dont get spells at random, you just build towers and then you can buy spells.
Now Magic spheres are separated into 4 Spheres: Light, Dark, Conjure, Elemental.
Light are spells that you want if your hero is creature based. Its basically buffs to kill the opponent faster, supposed to be good spells to finish a Caster fast.
Dark are spells that are optimal in Creature vs Creature battles, so if you are based on creatures and want to beat other hero with creatures, dark has the best spells for it.
Elemental is Spell power based magic, its the most powerful magic but is heavily countered by Protection from elemental magic from light, Resistance secondary skill (changing it), and certain creatures.
Conjure magic is mana points intensive spells but its true purpose is to counter other types of magic.

2.2)Secondary skills:
Im changing Secondary skills to make them more balanced or more interesting, I dont have a final list yet.

a) Sphere magic expertise: Im basically removing expert magic, trying to replace its effect with something else, not sure about it yet. THe point is that Mass spells are ridiculously powerful, destroy my magic system and its a pain to balance. In a map where there is so much interaction, ive tested a lot and a champ not having expert magic is just useless, and the first one to get magic expert have a big advantage over whoever doesnt.

b) Morale and luck: Im not sure what to do about these. I dont like the very erratic effects.

c) Tactics: Tactics is disabled and your champ gets +1/+2/+3 speed.
Im using the WOG script
Reason: Im going to profundize the impact having different armies have in battle result.
Tactics ruin these because if I want for example that Royal griffins to be good against archers, by having so fast speed that they reach their target before anyone can block its path, tactics completely destroy that design space.


3)Scripts :
I’ve made 7 scripts right now
1. Movement script, now every hero has a base movement no matter it’s creature, I’m in the way to find the right number right now I’m trying with 1700- Not using it since i tested the effect and i didnt like but i still have the script if you want it for any reason

2. Anti chaining script: Right now I’ve made the anti chaining script you can find in the thread to prevent chaining. Now if a hero trade with other champ, the champ with more movements lose movement equal to the difference in movement between both heroes.

3. Show power script: I’ve a script that with ctrl+left click show the power of one hero in gold so you can comprare the power in gold from your heroes with the opponents hero you can see, the opponent heroes power is displayed in a range from what you know (few, pack , lots, etc)

4. I’ve made a script that change every tree of knowledge on the map and make it so it ask always for 2000 gold

5. I’ve made a script that let you give one player some zones of the map revelaled right from the start.

6. I’ve made a script that modify creatures on the map, reduce speed and damage by X% and multiply the resources that creatures cost by Y. - Not using it.

7. A script that make it so you can buy spells in magic guilds.


SCRIPTS I NEED TO DO:

The following are the list of scripts I need to do.

1) I need to make EVERY spell in the game spell power matter, I have the ideas but doing is something different.

The first problems came on the fact that they would be battle scripts and I don’t know how to do them yet to work over network.
Second, actually do it is something different, I would need a trigger that works when a spells go on or wears off.
Since I don’t have such a trigger I have to use the only trigger that seems to work, every time something takes an action. It seems very complicated and I don’t hope to do it anytime soon, but I really want it.
It seems the VCMI project would allow me to do this, but despite i would want it very much, its too much work so I will work with what I can do.


2) I need a script that forces battles between heroes to be normal and battles vs creatures to be quick, and let you choose if you want to spend spell points or not

Notes: I know there is a similar script on WOG and WT but I didnt get into it yet

3)Give Units abilites and make abilites like the unicorn blind to work not on chance but activated maybe with some slight changes

As with spells, something very hard to achieve right now so despite I would want it, I dont expect to be able to do it anytime soon.

4) Nullify the effect moral and luck has now an replace it with something else ( I didn’t think yet what that something else will be, suggestions welcome)

Right now I just gave every champ the items that nullify luck and morale effect.

5) A script that nullify Expert magic effect.

6)I want to change how Resistance works, instead of just countering spells a % of the time I want it to reduce a % of the damage from spells 100% of the time.. I didnt think a way to achieve this yet.

7) I need to implement back some form of town demolition and rebuilding.

8) Adventure objects that works like observatory, shroud of darkness and monolith, where you have to pay a certain amount for use.

9) Create Adventure spells that create shround or dissipate shroud

10) Create adventure spells that create mine guardians the same way it worked on heroes of might and magic 2.

THINGS I NEED TO DO:
-Make descriptions of secondary skills and spells more accurate.
-Change the images of Schools of magic for more appropiate ones.


******
Here is my version 0.01 of my mod. Have in mind Im uploading it to upload something. its "playable". But you can only play castle, this version compared to the old unnumbered version received hundred of changes so its barely play tested, and it has like 1% of the features I wish.
Still its good to have a feel of the gameplay I want to capture and I think its fun to playtest (at least it was fun for me and my friends to playtest previous versions.
If you have the will, the time, and the friend to test it, all feedback is welcome.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2AE7RRZX

Suggestions and questions about "why you did that" are more than welcome.
If you want to use scripts i made and cant find what you need (Because its certainly a mess) Plz ask and I will send you or direct you to the script.
Also if you want to help creating objects I need or doing anything else I need (like adventure objects, scripts , description fixing and modifying defs,) Tell me and we'll talk about it, any help is more than welcome.
Last edited by Pollo2002 on Dec 26 2010, 7:17, edited 11 times in total.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 18 2010, 17:23

Is there an easy way to change the upgrade creature cost? I realize now its the difference between the cost of the unupgraded and the upgraded, and I would like to change it to something like heroes 2 where the difference is bigger.

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Postby solitaire345 » Dec 18 2010, 17:46

you can edit zcrtrait.txt file or change the cost using erm. IIRC it is controlled by the same command that controls other properties of creatures

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 19 2010, 2:53

Im not sure what you mean, in Zcrtrait.txt you can change the cost of creatures, but not how much it cost to upgrade a creature.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 19 2010, 5:46

Here is my version 0.01 of my mod. Have in mind Im uploading it to upload something. its "playable". But you can only play castle, this version compared to the old unnumbered version received hundred of changes so its barely play tested, and it has like 1% of the features I wish.
Still its good to have a feel of the gameplay I want to capture and I think its fun to playtest (at least it was fun for me and my friends to playtest previous versions.
If you have the will, the time, and the friend to test it, all feedback is welcome.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2AE7RRZX

Suggestions and questions about "why you did that" are more than welcome.
If you want to use scripts i made and cant find what you need (Because its certainly a mess) Plz ask and I will send you or direct you to the script.
Also if you want to help creating objects I need or doing anything else I need (like adventure objects, scripts , description fixing and modifying defs,) Tell me and we'll talk about it, any help is more than welcome.
Last edited by Pollo2002 on Dec 19 2010, 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Salamandre » Dec 19 2010, 7:43

In Zcrtrait, if you change the cost of the halberdier to 200 gold (for example), it will cost you 140 gold to upgrade the pikeman to.

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Postby solitaire345 » Dec 19 2010, 14:06

Pollo2002 wrote:Im not sure what you mean, in Zcrtrait.txt you can change the cost of creatures, but not how much it cost to upgrade a creature.


the upgrade cost is the difference between upgraded and basic creature costs

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 19 2010, 16:41

Yes, but that also means im changing how much a a halberdier cost.

I want for example pikeman cost 100, halberdier 125, but upgrading from pikeman to halberdier cost 50. Thats how it worked in heroes 2.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 3:00

I decided to upload the last version of the map PRE-WOG. In case you want to give a look at the map (Since it has kind of the same gameplay as post-wog, or at least it captures the same idea) but dont want to go by the hassle of installing WT and all the files.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=045IHUM5

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Re: Water Mod

Postby Salamandre » Dec 20 2010, 7:22

As you asked for opinions, here is mine:

IMO you want to remove what it makes its strength. Morale and luck are not so randomly, they work following a very precise pattern. They provide the flavor to battles and adventure map. They are very praised by players, actually I know no one which wants them out (except you)

Removing expertises will change the game. First, as expertise can be countered with another expertise (same thing about the tactics speed you don't want). Secondly, it will change the way all the map done already (about 1 million?) can be played. So it is about a new game, but a game which has no maps yet, so who will play and on what?

Movement: why? That's the difference between good players and newcomers: the good ones know how to use at their advantage the fastest creature to have their main cover the biggest distance every tung. If you do this, everybody will move same.

Remove chaining: that's why Heroes 4 was ignored. Chaining is the most interesting part of the game (along with expertises). It is so praised and cherished by veterans that only the idea of removing it sounds like an heresy.

Many things can be done with WoG. The dilemma is: how far can we change the game and still interest the veterans? Because, unfortunatelly, Heroes has too bad graphics to interest new players (who got poisoned by MORPG games), and in the end, we script for fans only, those who already played the game as it is. They are not likely to accept big changes, unless they provide more strategy, not less.

I like the idea of map control. Like Age of Wonders: more terrain you control (and objectives flagged) you get accordingly more power percentage. An interesting mod would be to restore to magic users their strength, as right now they can't stand in front of a might one. Like casting more than once/turn if expertises, spells power doubled, etc.

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Postby LoneKnight » Dec 20 2010, 8:03

Intersting that you comment that removing elemental expertise would be a bad idea, while saying that Magic heroes would need a buff. That'd be probably the single greatest buff magic heroes could get (since then might heroes couldn't mass haste/slow as Magic).

Also interesting that you think expertises counter each other when getting them is random. That's like saying "rolling 1 on a d6 counters rolling 6". Not to mention you have no idea what expertise you are supposed to counter anyway.

Luck and Morale heavily favor Might as well. They can remain sporadic (a bit of chaos doesn't hurt the tactics part of the game really), but their effect really has to get lower a bit.

I personally never enjoyed chaining. It feels like an abuse of sorts. It's logistics, and not even the interesting type.

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Postby Salamandre » Dec 20 2010, 9:01

Removing expertises would change the way all the maps done until now can be completed. This is what I said. I agree that might heroes could get a handicap by never achieving expertise, while magic ones could, nevertheless, the previous comment about maps and campaigns remains valid.

What about expertise against expertise? Do you need a detailed explanation here, really? Have you ever played multiplayer for a long time?
Then you know what I am talking about. Going without mass haste or slow into a battle is an instant loss. But it is not the factor for instant win neither, if both have the expertises.

Indeed, luck and morale favor the might. There are some MP tournaments out, TE and WT, which have a bunch of goodly scripters, however nobody touched this. I don't say it is necessarily a bad idea, but it would make the game much less attractive if based only on logical and scientific moves. Do we want a chess like game?

In what chaining is an abuse? Chaining is in the real world the capacity to win real wars. You transport your merchandise or army from A to B, and if you plan you fuel capacity well and reach B alive, someone else is taking the goods until point C and so on.

Difficult to defend the chaining aspect, because it is the core of Heroes. The capacity to cover big distances because you have the skill to do it was, as I said, the main difference between veterans and not veterans. More you cover, more you can do. Removing it would be a step back to H4, and we know how much was enjoyed by the community.

Of course anybody can have the hobby to create complex scripts which change drastically the way the game is working. I appreciate that. I only give my opinion as a long time player. I would not like to see those things happen, but that's me.

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Postby LoneKnight » Dec 20 2010, 9:30

What you are saying about expertise is basically that "if you don't have the broken spell you lose". It's like you play RPS and you introduce nukes. Nukes beat everything but other nukes. So see, it's balanced cause nukes counter nukes.

Point is, you must get it. There's no choice involved. You either get one of the mass spells, or you lose. This is not countering. It's about as much countering as nukes counter nukes. Remove both and you are back to square 1, except now magic heroes don't get raped by might heroes. Probably.

I also don't see how removing the elemental expertises makes previous maps impossible. Your opponent also doesn't have access to mass haste/slow, so he is nerfed just as much. If you had to rely on those 2 spells to win, well, maybe it's time to actually play the game without winning battles on initiative.

Chaining is in the real world the capacity to win real wars.

... yeah, it's a well known fact that armies can march 3-5 times as much a day as normal, provided you switch officers along the way.

I don't think there's much skill in buying an extra hero and measuring the distance, but w/e. The skill is in making the decision of spending resources on chaining. If you had an option to build a building that can send units to 1 days worth of movement (then you could upgrade it to 2 days, then 3, etc...), it'd be basically the same without having to click so much and tent your inactive heroes.

Oh and for the record, it's true HoMMIV didn't have chaining, but I'm pretty sure that's not the reason for it's downfall. There's like, 5 or 6 other possible reasons at least.

As for luck and morale... I'm pretty sure battle scripting is excrutiatingly difficult, so maybe even though it'd be good, it's not worth the hassle? Also I'm pretty sure it DID get changed in HoMMV. I think.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 9:32

First thanks for your opinion.
IMO you want to remove what it makes its strength. Morale and luck are not so randomly, they work following a very precise pattern. They provide the flavor to battles and adventure map. They are very praised by players, actually I know no one which wants them out (except you)


I have small group of friends (5 including me) I play heroes with. So a lot of the decision and calls were made as a group. 4 Really dislike how it works, one likes it.

There are many reasons to not remove it. One is that I like a lot of the things on morale like buildings, map objects, creatures, mirth, even icons, and secondary skills for it that function with it. I like the idea of having X bonus that goes up and down in so many ways. Also removing causes a lot of hassle because a lot of things do not work as intended or do not work at all because what they do is increase or decrease moral.

I always disliked how morale and luck works since I started playing online games of heroes 3, since I saw it impacting games way more than I wished.
Since I started my mod I really had luck and morale on my sight of ¨eliminate¨, the already named hassles that would cause their removal where the reasons I didnt. I guess the climax came when I was playtesting the first iterations of divided sand map (the map of my mod) which was way way way different than now, but tried to capture the same gameplay. I remember the exact scenario, when Im underground and I attack his hero thinking that my 5 red dragons are enough and I find out he has 8.
In any case I go for his dragons and get Luck/Morale/Luck. making things even faster than It should and I end winning a battle (game winning battle) feeling dirty than I should and my opponent and friend demoralized and feeling something unfair just went on.
Thats now how you want to end a 5 hour game.
That was the ¨click¨but not the reason not the first time I seriously considering removing it

Im not really completely shut down on bringing the morale and Luck back. I think even my friends are more against it. As im writing this post im consulting with one of them and he said that he really do not want it.

Despite the named bonus and cons, If I do bring it back is to make possible for newcomers to make the transition from whats played in today online games to my mod easier. Removing Luck and Morale do make the mod more alien to them.

But lets be clear, as a game play design decision for the objectives of the mod, if I would have magic that would program and do any change as I wish in one second, Morale and Luck as is, would never, ever survive.

But right now alternatives on how they work are out of my reach of scripting, because they are battle scripts which are a lot harder, some alternatives are impossible to do in WOG (but possible in VCMI if that project ends one day).

So the question Is not if morale and luck as Is are good for game play reasons to me, is about if the damage they produce is acceptable to the benefits of making my mod less Alien to people that make the transition from Heroes 3 to my mod.

(also I doubt im the only one that wants them out, and the change on how it works in heroes 5, may be some public proof of that).

It is the damage acceptable? Its a good question, I dont have the answer yet, and certainly having spells, abilities , building,etc working again seems great and soften the blow. (also my way of nullifying luck and morale is sad and bringing it back would make it less work , since otherwise i have to work on a different way to nullifying)

I still dont have the answer if the damage is acceptable or not and certainly more discussion and opinions about it are welcome. But since for you it seems to be no damage in first place, I guess there is not much of a point of discussing it.

Also im interested in your comment about it following a very precise pattern. I never ever heard of something like that. I know that when you save and reload you can reproduce the morale etc if all actions are the same.
But I never heard about it begin actually predictable(otherwise having a precise pattern is useless to me). But if there is a way to predict how it will work then It may help the case to bring morale and luck back to my mod.

Removing expertises will change the game. First, as expertise can be countered with another expertise (same thing about the tactics speed you don't want). Secondly, it will change the way all the map done already (about 1 million?) can be played. So it is about a new game, but a game which has no maps yet, so who will play and on what?


First, there is one Map, my mod have one Map, and if it would be a priority or a need, I can make more. But there is no need or priority for it.
One map Is enough to have fun if the gameplay is fun. A lot of strategy games despite having multiple maps people play on their favorite map all the time. So having one map only for now its a non-problem. If sometimes feel its starting to be a problem because they are bored of the map or whatever, I will do more, for now Im not in that situation.

Second, Yes removing expertise will change the game, I have Zero problem with changing the game, in fact the purpose of my mod is to change the game. If people are looking for a more balanced heroes 3 based on closed maps, I think the WT/TE team are doing a wonderful work at it. I think there is plenty of material for single player games. There are still open maps that can be found on the internet.

My mod goes a very different direction, it tries to create a different style of gameplay that btw, is based on the early days of online heroes, where maps were more open, but unlike the called ¨open maps¨ that came later, they had multiple towns. The online community went to play closed maps mostly, with the exception of Boomerang, which is probably the only open map still played quite a bit, but to nobody surprise it plays a lot like a closed map. I still think the open maps that become popular were too much about build order and not so much about interaction (even if a lot more than closed maps).

AT the start of the thread I talk about the objectives of my mod and yes its objective is to change the game. But of course not to change the game arbitrarily, there are reasons behind those changes.

Expertise can be countered or I would say, nullified, by other expertises.
The case being, expert magic is without a doubt the most powerful combat skill by FAR, Its the before and after expert magic, and a hero without it do not stand a chance against a hero with it.
The reason that in closed maps, random map or whatever, might hero beats magic hero, is ironically, expert magic. The fact is that mass spells are ridiculously powerful, they are low level they require almost no spell power or knowledge, so naturally having high knowledge and high spell power its not interesting.
Thats even more so in closed maps or even open maps that are large because might hero will, eventually, be expert magic, so they dont run the risk of fighting without it against a magic hero.
The main reason elementalist are so good as might heroes is that they start with expert magic, thats not that big deal in large maps though for reasons described.

In my mod in early play tests, pre-Wog, expert magic become ¨the game¨. Since early interaction and fights are more common, it was a lot a race about getting expert magic. Getting expert magic early on, means that hero was untochable and a big lead.
The game fast became a race about getting expert magic and considering how much variance secondary skills have, that made the game worse.
It didnt take long for us to realize if expert magic was good, then elementalists were gods. Indeed. The game shoulda be called ¨elementalist wars¨. I wont say elementalist wars were unfun, which may make a point, and also make all non elementalist pointless.

Since making Mass spells and BERZEKER (the other powerhouse of expert magic) not mass or not super big AOE was a non option pre-wog (and as far as i know this holds true in wog) I had the following options. Remove magic schools, everyone starts with magic schools or make magic schools a magic hero thing only.

I went for the first one because it seemed the easiest, clear and easier to balance. And so was playtested afterwards with good results but thats another story.

After I started with wog, didnt messed up with magic schools to be honest, and Version 0.01 (this one :)) is the first time I bring back the magic school secondary skills. So far I like the results except for the problem of spell description that now adventure spellbook give inaccurate descriptions of what spell does (even if i would do it right, which i didnt :P)

The point is that Mass spells are too powerful and dominant as its Expert berzeker (maybe less so since I moved it up to level 5). And unless There is a way to make mass spells a separated spell that is high level, high manacost, and/or just deactive the mass effect of spells on expert level, Expert magic isnt making a comeback to my mod.

Movement: why? That's the difference between good players and newcomers: the good ones know how to use at their advantage the fastest creature to have their main cover the biggest distance every tung. If you do this, everybody will move same.


Yes im not using this script right now. The existence of this script was actually because, the last dominant strat between my friends was to create heroes with armies of fast creatures only and running around the map avoiding heroes, specially true with fortress who could very fast assemble champs with dragonflies and wyverns that can assault castles
Its still powerfull now but I decided that if I want to weaken that strat I will use other methods, I really like the function of having heroes with different speeds based on units, so im not using that script anymore, about how to fix the problem, right now im focusing on Castle balance which is the only playable race and despite it can do that, for reasons long to explain its not that strong until lategame, which in any case I want Castle to be strong lategame, so I have no problem with it yet.
In any case, whatever the problem is, I decided this wont be the solution.

Remove chaining: that's why Heroes 4 was ignored. Chaining is the most interesting part of the game (along with expertises). It is so praised and cherished by veterans that only the idea of removing it sounds like an heresy.


I understand that closed maps and even open maps are based on build orders, and how to execute those build orders are based on chainings, because knowing how to chain means you can kill more neutrals and gather more resources.

Thats now how my mod plays out , at all.
First im going to say that compared to expert magic, chaining do not damage the game so much, there is certain charm to it, so maybe I can accept to do a more middle ground change between exist or not exist.

It changes the dynamic of the game but not in a terrible way.
It would be too long to list the pros and cons of chaining, but in a nutshell, chaining accelerate the game, but create a situation in my mod that in lategame, you dont make important decisions on how to split your army anymore, you just advance to hot spots as a group of heroes and your army goes where you need it to be, battle heroes do almost never need to back. Im not going to say the game in my mod with chaining is terrible, but im going to say that without it its a lot more interesting and test better the skills I want the game to test, like map control and mind games.
So for not I will keep it removed, but Im certainly open to make it back in some nerfed form.

Many things can be done with WoG. The dilemma is: how far can we change the game and still interest the veterans? Because, unfortunatelly, Heroes has too bad graphics to interest new players (who got poisoned by MORPG games), and in the end, we script for fans only, those who already played the game as it is. They are not likely to accept big changes, unless they provide more strategy, not less.


This is a valid argument, you are basically saying ¨there is no market for your product¨. I agree mostly.
Casuals are attracted for more shiny things, which i offer none, and veterans want to play the heroes as they played it for a long time.

Still there is a very very small market for my mod. That is players that liked heroes, and stopped playing because the online heroes community derived to play closed maps, and wanted to play a more interactive game.
Then there are players that if someone they trust tell them the gameplay is really good , they will look behind graphics and play it.

I know the number of people that fall into that are really small, but it exist, and I do this mostly with the intention of playing with my friends, if i get to hook some players into it, more than welcome, in fact it would be awesome. I know that if they game would be REALLY good I could capture that market, the problem is that All I have now is a 0.01 version. So I would destroy my trust If I present this to that market as good product. And thats the reason I took a while to show anything to the public.
But then I decided it was ok to do so if I made myself clear that this is barely a prototype of the alpha version of an unfinished product.:P
I like the idea of map control. Like Age of Wonders: more terrain you control (and objectives flagged) you get accordingly more power percentage. An interesting mod would be to restore to magic users their strength, as right now they can't stand in front of a might one. Like casting more than once/turn if expertises, spells power doubled, etc.


Magic heroes power is a not issue to me as they are pretty good on my mod, and I already lived the ¨era of elementalist¨ I understand you concern because you are looking from a closed map perspective where if your name isnt Crag Hack you are not happy.
But in my mod magic heroes are good, so thats not something that really bothers me right now.

In any case thanks for your comments.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 10:06

Btw about my 0.01 mod.
This version has many changes compared to my last unnumbered version and only played one game before uploading. An important change were that before you started with the 4 towns of your side under your control And I used to play on hard difficulty, while I recommend in this mod to play in impossible.
Also mines that had level 1 monsters protecting them had nothing on them

The reason I made those changes is long to explain but the reason i name them is that I played a game today, and Im not very happy about some things, that seemed better in my previous game.

First I think Its slower than I wished, I wanted the game to develop a little slower, but the level 1 monsters on mines, impossible difficulty and not starting with the towns, slowed the game maybe too much.

On the other hand Im not sure if the slowing effect of development hurts because of it, or because I dont enjoy AI battles, and I feel they have more importance now since there isnt much interaction with human player in first week compared to previous versions.

Which bring me to another point.

I dont like ai battles, and they slow the game A LOT. But the idea of making all human vs AI quick combat has its problem.

First people, even me enjoy the occasional human vs AI battle.
Second, People need to get a grasp of why quick battles go as they go, and how powerful each unit is. If they never fight the AI its going to be a lot harder to develop that intuition.

So I want to reduce the amount of non quick battles, but im not sure how.

The WT quick combat helps, because if you have no loses on combat you can just make it quick combat and be done.

but I want more than that. Im not sure if redesign the map so there is less guards, make some script that you can only have one non-quick battle per day .
(which is dangerous as it would make that a resource as you will be maybe even delaying a battle a day to get a non-quick battle, that could be interesting and fun or a total disaster.)
Maybe you can only non-quick depending on the level of the guard and the week of play, which is weird, but kind of effective?.

Anyway, Ideas and solutions to it are welcome.

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 10:11

About heroes 4, I never liked chaining and I hated heroes 4. Heroes 4 failure has nothing to do with lack of chaining.

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Postby Salamandre » Dec 20 2010, 10:57

Okay, first Loneknight

Mights have an advantage over magic heroes because of the skills system and pattern, not because of expertises. While a might have very high chances to get logistic, armorer and offense, the magic does not have those chances. Combine logistic early (+30% movement, so more experience/gold) with the last two (+% damage and defense) and you get they key why might always win.

Why maps can not be played without expertises? Well, take any map from the top. Mapmaker know that the player will get as soon as he can expertise, thus the map is build with those things in mind. In multiplayer it is not important, but single maps will be simply unplayable. How do you beat 10k mighty gorgons without expert slow? How do you beat 10k gran elves without expert forgetfulness? You simply can't. Map is unplayable.

Chaining: a good player can make up to 10-15 battle/turn, when using chaining. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJzQ8DXrgcY --example of first day battles) His precise knowledge about how far any hero with a given creature can move is the difference with a newbie. If one remove that, all the player can do is make a few battles turn, and that's all. No calculating movement, no calculating monsters speed, nada. How will he do the difference with a less experienced player then? I fear that this is a harsh decision.

Luck/morale: this is very easy to script, so the reason is not that. TE and WT use ERA codes, and in ERA we can script withing a special function if a creature gets a second move. So basically you add at the start of battle the artefacts negating both, then assign to a random variable how they occur. It can be lowered or vice versa. But having a high luck or morale asks for sacrifices. First you must have same faction creatures, then you have to put the right artefacts on and ignore others, then you have to get the skill and sacrifice another skill for it, then you have to choose on which terrain you fight. It is not like "I do nothing then my archangels attack twice, I am lucky".


Pollo:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=33425

Here is a compilation of different research on the morale.

About expertises: the reason a might beats a magic one on the random templates is that they are too rich in relics and players are blocked behind strong guards a long time. Also the actual tournaments prohibited a lot of regular moves we used by the past, as hit and run tactic and dimension door, which helped a lot if you played with magic heros. If the interactivity between both opponents is not restricted by the template, then magic heros can create a havoc, even without expertise.

Today people play on templates where you start safely in a corner and have 2 weeks alone. By this time you can develop an hero to level 20-25, and of course mights will win. What is wrong is the map, not Heroes 3.

I am not sure the players will give up easily on not having the possibility to get expert air or earth.

Quick combat: this is optional, and with a message (we already have this in WoG). Forcing the quick combat is not good idea. Any knows that AI is not very good and even a single unit casualty is bad result, when preparing human vs human battle. Everyone should be allowed to choose when he wants quick and when he does not want it. If you feel the game is too slow, then turn on "quick combat". But why force the others?

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 18:28

Quick combat: this is optional, and with a message (we already have this in WoG). Forcing the quick combat is not good idea. Any knows that AI is not very good and even a single unit casualty is bad result, when preparing human vs human battle. Everyone should be allowed to choose when he wants quick and when he does not want it. ?


If both players are forced to quick combat then its no problem as both will have casualties, so both will have to deal with the same issuel

If you feel the game is too slow, then turn on "quick combat". But why force the others


If non-quick combat is an option and you play to win you should always use non-quick combat, so its not like i can use quick combat if i feel the game is too slow.
Players should be on even conditions, so both should have access to non-quick combat or not.

Combat against AI is actually not interesting , i think there should be some, but just that. Im still thinking on a clean solution.

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Postby Salamandre » Dec 20 2010, 18:56

Pollo2002 wrote:If both players are forced to quick combat then its no problem as both will have casualties, so both will have to deal with the same issuel


So if a player has to deal with gran elves and another with golems (level 3 too) you really think they will have same casualties? Monster are random but some of them can be lethal in the early game if not real battle.

Combat vs AI not interesting? It is VERY interesting if dealt well. Try to take a full crypt day one with no casualties. I invite you to peek in the "strategists corner" in HC, to see how battles vs AI are dealt in the first week. When you consider that good player take Utopia week 2, I assure you each fight takes in average half an hour, to achieve such results.

Well...good luck anyway. ;)

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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 20 2010, 19:21

I played online quite a bit, so I know all about crypt strats, etc.
Sorry but thats its not interesting to me. Those are battle of knowledge, testing knowledge is not something im interested in.


I played all the online Random templates like balance, jebus cross, etc, I played all the closed map like hourglass etc. I played against good players of those times like kuma, rychroller etc.
I usually played Ivor on rampart or mephala if rampart vs rampart, because yeah i castle and rampart were the 2 best sides. (now in WT and TE and most modern templates made significant nerfs to them)

My point is trying to introduce me to Heroes 3 online play of maps and templates played of most heroes community and TOH its not neccesary. Ive played, been there, read strats guides, I even made some of my own that got red stars, played against good players. Im well aware on how online heroes in the heroes community population plays out. Thats why I quitted playing and thats why im making this mod btw.


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