Additional WoG monsters ideas

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GreatEmerald
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Additional WoG monsters ideas

Postby GreatEmerald » Aug 21 2009, 21:51

(kinda split from Cleric evolution)
I have a few ideas for WoG. I see that there already are a lot of nice monster ideas in the Monster thread here, yet we could have even more quality monsters - we could port them from MM7, which is basically based on HoMM3. That, however, probably means we would need new gameplay mechanics - for example, Clerics of the Moon would go to the NecroTown as a level 4 creature, and all others in the town could be bumped up one level. However, it could introduce some balance issues, so the Horn of Abyss solution (AKA Heroes IV solution) could also be used - add them as alternative creatures (Clerics of the Moon get to be lvl 4). All creature statistics and abilities can be easily taken from MM7.

Another idea for gameplay mechanics - two upgrades. Each unit could have three upgrades instead of one, just like in MM7 - Harpy Hags could be upgraded to Harpy Queens, Power Liches to Lich Kings, Clerics of the Moon to Priests of the Moon etc. That way, when attacking an upgraded enemy, you could get one stack of double upgraded creatures, like there is now with unupgraded creature attacking. However, that would need some new graphics for improved buildings and upgraded creatures, as well as for polishing new units.

So, all in all, here are the pros:
* Original, quality content from NWC
* More monsters
* More alternatives
* New gameplay mechanics
* Rather easy to do
* Stays true to the history

Looking at it, it seems it would fit rather nicely into HotA, since they also use artifacts from MM7 and such. Of course, it would be a nice addition to other mods, too.

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Postby Salamandre » Aug 22 2009, 0:41

Ideas are always welcome, but there is nobody to realize them. Right now WoG needs modders more than ideas. If you are dedicated, learn to script and give it a shoot, it is not so hard but...long.

Using creatures from MM series was already rejected by most modders because poor graphics and frames. Personally I am interested to create a scenario based on MM6 and I will add maybe a few sprites in. But they hardly compete with models from WoW, Civilization, so is more having in mind in-conditionals MM fans.

Also there is no need to change any existing creatures lines, as new units can be scripted as neutrals, or just wait 2157 when WoG 3.59 gets out and adds unlimited units. Now, who will done them, is another question...

There is also a polish mod which adds a third upgrade for creatures. It was submitted on HC ( http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=29786 ) and had not warm comments. In fact, everyone forgot about it the next day or had new "ideas" for it, ignoring all the work already done.

It is quite complex to handle, you know, when changing mechanics for an 10 years old game.

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Postby Warmonger » Aug 22 2009, 6:45

Both for Wog and h5 every dai i see dozens of people sharing their 'ideas'. Most of them is plain stupid and uninspired so I don't even read such posts anymore.
There is no problem with creativity, but creation. Someone has to take his time, effort and skills and MAKE new content. And there is only a handful modders able to do that, mostly because others don't bother learning game structure, scripts, graphic edition, not even thinking of programming or reverse engineering. Wishes are not enough.

If you want to attract attention, show complex, detailed and resonable description of what is there to be done, HOW and what you already have.
VCMI : the future of Heroes 3!
People just don't care.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Aug 22 2009, 9:53

I don't quite agree that graphics are poor - in fact, they're really detailed, except that it needs some more frames in between the ones that are now. And sounds. And a few more animations, like idle or hover. Though hover animations can play the current ones - the units turns at you and then does the animation. Death animations could be exactly like that.

And yes, I know that ideas without modders are not too much. The situation here is the same as in modding for Unreal Tournament 1 - enough ideas, and not enough modders. However, I'm willing to help - I'm quite skilled at Photoshop, and I'm also not new to game scripting. Do you know any good tutorials about scripting for H3, by the way? Would be a good way to start.

As for examples, I can try and create a concept of Lich King, and see what I get :D I already have some ideas about that...

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Postby GreatEmerald » Aug 22 2009, 11:24

OK, here's a sample of my Lich King:
Image

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Salamandre
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Postby Salamandre » Aug 22 2009, 11:45

The main problem is not only poor graphics but limited frames. WoG allows endless customization of a creature, so it is better when creating a new .def to have frames for special attacks.
Photoshop creatures are amateurish. 3Dsmax is required to get good looking sprites but it is very expensive/hard to understand.

Here is animated cleric from MM6 using Photoshop and animated creatures with 3DSmax by a skilled graphic artist, there is no way they compare

Image
ImageImageImageImageImage

For example the first abomination has about 50 frames and the cleric has 10 (move frames).

Now, not wanting to be harsh or anything, but if you are interested about WoG it is better to visit http://heroescommunity.com/ as it is much more active (WoG section).
You will also find a "possible creature" thread where there are 144 (!) pages of sprites like the one you did, but not a single complete def. Not even one. The hard work is not to present the first frame, but to get the creature in.

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Postby GreatEmerald » Aug 22 2009, 13:43

However, looking at the original NWC DEFs, you can see that, for example, the Lich movement anim has 8 frames - even less than the Cleric you have here. Yet it animates fastly so you don't see that it has only that many frames.

EDIT: Also, what about new spells? Are they hard to script in HoMM3?

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Postby rhomboidspace » Aug 23 2009, 23:33

GreatEmerald wrote:However, looking at the original NWC DEFs, you can see that, for example, the Lich movement anim has 8 frames - even less than the Cleric you have here. Yet it animates fastly so you don't see that it has only that many frames.

EDIT: Also, what about new spells? Are they hard to script in HoMM3?

even though the animation used in game is only 8 frames typically sprites are created in 3D and then once the animations in 3D are done the are converted to 2D, this creates the highest quality possiable. In photoshopped animations, the animations are typically overly square and rigid, since 1/2 or more of the image is used in multiple if not all the frames.

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Postby Corlagon » Aug 24 2009, 10:37

Here is animated cleric from MM6 using Photoshop and animated creatures with 3DSmax by a skilled graphic artist


They're both animated creatures from 3DSMax by skilled graphic artists. The only difference is ten years :devious:

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Postby Salamandre » Aug 24 2009, 11:56

Nah, you did not get it: it is me who compiled the frames with Photoshop:)


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