So is this game worth buying?

The game Might & Magic: Heroes VII, developed by Limbic Entertainment.

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Kalah
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 13 2015, 22:56

Have you guys tried the editor yet? It's looking promising; I can make simple maps with this thing and only when using more complicated scripts do I run into real trouble. That probably means that more talented mapmakers than I can do better. Maybe we'll get some user-made maps soon. :)
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Panda Tar » Dec 13 2015, 23:04

Have you tried the RMG?
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby cjlee » Dec 14 2015, 7:43

Kalah wrote:Have you guys tried the editor yet? It's looking promising; I can make simple maps with this thing and only when using more complicated scripts do I run into real trouble. That probably means that more talented mapmakers than I can do better. Maybe we'll get some user-made maps soon. :)



This makes me feel very happy.

In a world where we have been hearing nothing good about h7, the fact that even a casual mapmaker can make simple maps is a very promising start.

Kalah I think you should start with the random generator. Just make a few pretty standard, unambitious M or L maps first with all factions represented and start passing them around. When enough people have played without major bugs appearing, further refinements can be made and more complicated scripts created. For now we just need to identify if there are any problems with the editor.

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Galaad » Dec 14 2015, 15:50

Yeah I guess you can feel happy if you actually enjoy the design.

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 14 2015, 18:33

@cjlee: Noted, I'll try out the RMG as well.
@Galaad: I'm sorry, was that for me? Of course, if you don't like the design at all, having a functional editor may not matter to you, but as a community manager, I'm very interested in it.
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Galaad » Dec 14 2015, 18:35

Rather a direct reply to cjlee who said he felt happy, but I guess it can be targeted to anyone.

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Kalah
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 14 2015, 18:41

I think I should test the editor more thoroughly; as we know, a good editor can cover up many shortcomings in a game simply by having a talented mapmaker compensating for it. Poor AI, for instance.
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Erwinner » Dec 14 2015, 19:21

Kalah wrote:@cjlee: Noted, I'll try out the RMG as well.
@Galaad: I'm sorry, was that for me? Of course, if you don't like the design at all, having a functional editor may not matter to you, but as a community manager, I'm very interested in it.


you are a community manager for Heroes 7? what? I thought you are an independent fansite?

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Karmakeld » Dec 14 2015, 19:36

And I thought he was a Norwegian guy managing a community fan site. What a minute.. Is there a doctor here?! I think we need a doctor..! Erwinner seem to have lost his 'lol'.. Or is that a healthy sign..?
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Galaad » Dec 14 2015, 19:50

Well tbh I was bugged by this as well, no need to be rude.

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Karmakeld » Dec 14 2015, 20:01

Apologies if it seemed rude, wasn't intended.
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby cjlee » Dec 14 2015, 20:29

Kalah wrote:I think I should test the editor more thoroughly; as we know, a good editor can cover up many shortcomings in a game simply by having a talented mapmaker compensating for it. Poor AI, for instance.



One thing I've learned in my years of Heroes gaming, is that there are always genuises out there who can overcome many flaws inherent in the game. Good map/ mission design by an enthusiastic mapmaker is really important. The longevity of this game, fan goodwill, the value of this franchise, really come from the maps that independent folks make and keep others playing the game.

If Heroes 3 had no map editor and no custom map loading ability, I don't think it would have been played after a few years.

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 14 2015, 21:57

Erwinner wrote:you are a community manager for Heroes 7? what? I thought you are an independent fansite?


I'm hoping that was a joke, since our independence as a fansite is one of the few things I'm really touchy on. If I were publicly accused of anything else, my trigger finger on the "ban" button would get awefully itchy.

I don't want to go too far off topic, but to be clear: CH is an independent site, of which I am the head admin. That makes me a "community manager". Not just for Heroes 7, though, (I don't know where you got that from), we want to support the fans of all the M&M games. What I meant was that having a good editor will help the community of fans prosper. Talented mapmakers like Veldrynus, Yurian, Jeff (and many more) would create maps, distribute them via our site, come here to talk about them, find people to test them ... all this would enable CH and other fan sites to serve a bigger, more alive community of fans. This is why I always hope that good games are released - although I will be honest and say they're bad if they're bad (like H6).

Back on topic, please: it will probably take some time to test the editor properly, so it would be helpful if some of you other players could try it as well. If you have the game, please have an attempt at it and tell us what you think. :)
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Erwinner » Dec 14 2015, 22:55

Kalah wrote:I'm hoping that was a joke, since our independence as a fansite is one of the few things I'm really touchy on. If I were publicly accused of anything else, my trigger finger on the "ban" button would get awefully itchy.

I don't want to go too far off topic, but to be clear: CH is an independent site, of which I am the head admin. That makes me a "community manager". Not just for Heroes 7, though, (I don't know where you got that from), we want to support the fans of all the M&M games. What I meant was that having a good editor will help the community of fans prosper. Talented mapmakers like Veldrynus, Yurian, Jeff (and many more) would create maps, distribute them via our site, come here to talk about them, find people to test them ... all this would enable CH and other fan sites to serve a bigger, more alive community of fans. This is why I always hope that good games are released - although I will be honest and say they're bad if they're bad (like H6).


sorry no it's not a joke nor any kind of attack, no purpose in threats, I am legitimately confused when you described yourself as a community manager because to my understanding the parlance "community manager" contemporarily means an evangelist officially employed by a company to promote their product,

what you are IMO based on what I understood is not what should be called a community manager, it's a fansite owner or administrator, or simply a fan, whereas gombaki or Ubi-Arnaud are community managers lol

anyway not to harp on that, I don't think the Heroes 7 editor will take off because everyone at HC is saying it's even worse than the H6 one (good to check HC to keep up to date on the latest news), reporting countless glitches and problems, lack of very basic scripting capability, and engine issues which prevent you from distributing maps in an easy fashion, basically if you choose to compress your map when publishing it apparently cannot be edited again lol

the last great editor was Heroes 4, not even Heroes 5 (which ended up being a fine game) has ever had excellent maps of the calibre of Heroes 2 and 3 because of similar factors to H7, including the 3D, the horrible launch, fundamental limitations of the game and the unwieldy editor itself lol

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 14 2015, 23:10

The distribution is a problem. Size-wise, you can get files on 50-80MB and I think that's too large for a single fansite like CH or Mapsforheroes to handle in great numbers. I'm thinking on alternatives, though, possibly integrating our map database with a torrent system.
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Galaad » Dec 14 2015, 23:35

Kalah wrote:I think I should test the editor more thoroughly; as we know, a good editor can cover up many shortcomings in a game simply by having a talented mapmaker compensating for it. Poor AI, for instance.


Um sorry but, no. I don't see how a well designed map can compensate for a poor AI. No matter the map, it won't influence on AI behaviour.

IMO the AI problem in H7 is a huge one since you spend lots of time creeping vs neutrals, be it in single or multiplayer.

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Kalah » Dec 15 2015, 0:14

Galaad wrote:Um sorry but, no. I don't see how a well designed map can compensate for a poor AI. No matter the map, it won't influence on AI behaviour.


Not completely, of course, but simulated. In the H7 editor, I can see that you can check/uncheck a box telling the AI to ignore a certain structure, for instance. If that works (not tested yet), you could conceivably tell the AI what to do. Not as good as an intelligent AI, but still pretty good in the hands of a skilled mapmaker.

I will continue to explore these things more closely in the editor.
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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby cjlee » Dec 15 2015, 11:39

Kalah wrote:The distribution is a problem. Size-wise, you can get files on 50-80MB and I think that's too large for a single fansite like CH or Mapsforheroes to handle in great numbers. I'm thinking on alternatives, though, possibly integrating our map database with a torrent system.


Nah, based on the current unpopularity of H7, I don't see fans coming here in the numbers they used to. :ill:

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby cjlee » Dec 15 2015, 11:43

Galaad wrote:
Kalah wrote:I think I should test the editor more thoroughly; as we know, a good editor can cover up many shortcomings in a game simply by having a talented mapmaker compensating for it. Poor AI, for instance.


Um sorry but, no. I don't see how a well designed map can compensate for a poor AI. No matter the map, it won't influence on AI behaviour.

IMO the AI problem in H7 is a huge one since you spend lots of time creeping vs neutrals, be it in single or multiplayer.


Mapmakers of the past had many ways to solve this problem, so fear not:

Bigger Neutral Stacks

Powerful enemy heroes scripted to attack you nonstop

Periodic scripted events that take away your resources and give the AI free creatures or resources

Forcing you to pass certain gates that take away anything from experience to artifacts to creatures from the human player

Stacks programmed to be always hostile to you and always join the AI player

One way gates that force you to embark on costly quests or leave castle with minimal garrison, while AI player can just attack your castle anytime they like without you retaliating

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Re: So is this game worth buying?

Postby Panda Tar » Dec 15 2015, 12:39

Of course, it would be much better if they improved AI instead of waiting people to cast miraculous skills upon making maps. It would save much time for map makers dealing with things that weren't supposed to be their responsibility to begin with.
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