The Lost Tales of Axeoth

The game Might & Magic: Heroes VII, developed by Limbic Entertainment.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Feb 22 2016, 15:37

Well to be fair although this was indeed my suggestion it was approved by Terry. I wouldn't have put it in without his consent.
doesn't magically make it authentic to be honest, there is still no way it would have been written into the original Heroes 4 script organically, sticks out like sore thumb lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Marzhin » Feb 22 2016, 16:21

doesn't magically make it authentic to be honest, there is still no way it would have been written into the original Heroes 4 script organically, sticks out like sore thumb lol
To clarify, apart from this addition the script of the cutscenes is based on Terry's original story notes, that we (Terry and I) simply reworked into a voice-over narration. Terry's notes mentioned that the Broken isles were linked to the Ancients and that it had long ago been a single landmass destroyed "during a great battle among the Gods" (these "Gods" being implied to have been the Ancients). While we were working on the script of the intro scene, I suggested to add a nod to Isles of Terra with the idea of that landmass may had been a nacelle fallen from the sky. He liked it and so we included it.

While I agree it's something new that might not have been there had the campaign been produced back in 2002, I feel it reinforces Axeoth's place within the global Ancient mythos. As to whether it feels "authentic" or not, Terry liked the idea and that's the only opinion that matters to me ;)

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Feb 22 2016, 16:57

doesn't magically make it authentic to be honest, there is still no way it would have been written into the original Heroes 4 script organically, sticks out like sore thumb lol
To clarify, apart from this addition the script of the cutscenes is based on Terry's original story notes, that we (Terry and I) simply reworked into a voice-over narration. Terry's notes mentioned that the Broken isles were linked to the Ancients and that it had long ago been a single landmass destroyed "during a great battle among the Gods" (these "Gods" being implied to have been the Ancients). While we were working on the script of the intro scene, I suggested to add a nod to Isles of Terra with the idea of that landmass may had been a nacelle fallen from the sky. He liked it and so we included it.

While I agree it's something new that might not have been there had the campaign been produced back in 2002, I feel it reinforces Axeoth's place within the global Ancient mythos. As to whether it feels "authentic" or not, Terry liked the idea and that's the only opinion that matters to me ;)
lol no worries make no mistake, his opinion is the only one that matters to me as well lol

was there any other sneaky hidden Ancient stuff in Heroes 4, I always thought Gavin Magnus mysterious origin story had something to do with the Ancients,

there is a of text in the Emilia campaign where he's whining that his castle is an inch off from being symmetrical and Solmyr is like uh what, there's no way Magnus could possibly have noticed that with normal human eyesight, so was he a robot maybe lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Galaad » Feb 24 2016, 14:10

was there any other sneaky hidden Ancient stuff in Heroes 4, I always thought Gavin Magnus mysterious origin story had something to do with the Ancients,

there is a of text in the Emilia campaign where he's whining that his castle is an inch off from being symmetrical and Solmyr is like uh what, there's no way Magnus could possibly have noticed that with normal human eyesight, so was he a robot maybe lol
+1
Also if I may add I think only Terry Ray's original ideas for the story are canon.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Karmakeld » Feb 26 2016, 14:06

Marzhin, was anything else added to the story or are all texts based entirely on Terry Ray's original script?
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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Feb 27 2016, 21:58

lol no worries make no mistake, his opinion is the only one that matters to me as well lol
actually after reading the whole story I have to take it back sorry, your idea is not canon just because he liked your idea to be honest, I think he's very very nice guy and would let Ubisoft put in whatever they want basically because he is very accomodating and polite,

but Heroes 1-4 never ever direct references ancients' nacelles and spaceships from MM so I don't consider this a true add to the story, any other fan in same position could have also had an idea he might have liked and forced it in, I personally disagree with fan modifying an official author's story to turn unrelated things into a fan service reference after the fact lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Demilich » Feb 28 2016, 13:26

And in this discussion I'll take Marzhin's side. Yes, there weren't any nods to sci-fi background before in Heroes, but I think it is just silly to close eyes and pretend it does not exists, and separate M&M universe and Heroes universe in terms of lore. Lore is common for both, and to pretend that Heroes is pure fantasy... hell, its plain strange, in my opinion. So, Julien, just a THANK YOU for that brief nacelle nod, I longed for so many years to see something like that).

Another point: to say to the owner of rights that what he delivers to us "is not canon!" is another strange thing to do. He is an owner, he gives us a product, and - like we or not - it makes the product canon. The moment when fans will decide on forums what is canon and what is not will be the moment of total chaos.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Baronus » Feb 28 2016, 14:28

We only want know original Terry text. Everyone may modify all textes. We want make campaign based on original old text.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Feb 28 2016, 14:44

And in this discussion I'll take Marzhin's side. Yes, there weren't any nods to sci-fi background before in Heroes, but I think it is just silly to close eyes and pretend it does not exists, and separate M&M universe and Heroes universe in terms of lore. Lore is common for both, and to pretend that Heroes is pure fantasy... hell, its plain strange, in my opinion. So, Julien, just a THANK YOU for that brief nacelle nod, I longed for so many years to see something like that).

Another point: to say to the owner of rights that what he delivers to us "is not canon!" is another strange thing to do. He is an owner, he gives us a product, and - like we or not - it makes the product canon. The moment when fans will decide on forums what is canon and what is not will be the moment of total chaos.
not at all really, all I think is NWC/Terry Ray script from 2002 is canon and any hanger on fans tampering with it later have nothing to do with it, because it edits the script fifteen years later and changes the draft, that is a perfectly valid opinion to me, a bit like people rejecting Star Wars Special Edition lol

no point appealing to me about rights holders or forum chaos or whatelse, you can think the right holder is sacred if you like, that's OK, but I don't think so, rights holders can do what they like and it will be licensed, but they're not the authors, it doesn't make them canon or that they aren't fans making fan fiction and throwing in silly fan service,

look at Dune series for example, don't try to tell me those dreadful Brian Herbert books are canon lol, they're not canon for me because they're very badly written and modify Frank Herbert's original vision of Dune, I don't care if he's the right holder or the son of Frank it's still a fan fiction lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Baronus » Feb 28 2016, 17:41

Ubi/Lim creates their own world. But we want continue Axeoth World which is not finished. The better thing is to see original Terry Ray text. If Marzhin give it for us...

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Demilich » Feb 28 2016, 17:48

Brien Herbert book, hundreds of Sherlock Holmes books - yes, thats a great example of perversion of original glorious products. The only thing in which our situation is different from SW Special Edition - Terry Ray scripts were unpublished and therefore cannot be considered canon at that stage. From interview with Terry published in September, if I'm remember correctly - he said, that Nicolas Griphonheart has 3 bastard sons, but before that materials get into published product, its just a bunch of ideas, not canon. So it is a good question, if we can consider original texts/drafts of Axeoth campaigns canon at the stage of writing. My opinion - no, and I've tried to explain why. On one and the same products several authors can work at once, and Unity is a product of Terry and Julien. I don't see any problem with such an approach.

Authors can do what they like, but only goddamn publishers release their products and state what is canon and what is not. Please, remember a precendent with Republic Commando novel series from Star Wars. When Clone Wars animation was released, the content of novels fall from canon, and the author - Karen Traviss - announced that she'll not write a thing in a SW sandbox anymore. But again, a publisher got the last word.

As for me, I hate Ashan, 'cos it is so DULL! Yes, it is separate universe, all the like. And Jassad Attqua in M&M10 - oh, just another easter egg, not canon. But as Marzhin stated, everyone free to interpret "canon" as they like, 'cos a situation in which Ubi's management got the universe from the start is so stupid.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Feb 28 2016, 19:09

Brien Herbert book, hundreds of Sherlock Holmes books - yes, thats a great example of perversion of original glorious products. The only thing in which our situation is different from SW Special Edition - Terry Ray scripts were unpublished and therefore cannot be considered canon at that stage. From interview with Terry published in September, if I'm remember correctly - he said, that Nicolas Griphonheart has 3 bastard sons, but before that materials get into published product, its just a bunch of ideas, not canon. So it is a good question, if we can consider original texts/drafts of Axeoth campaigns canon at the stage of writing. My opinion - no, and I've tried to explain why. On one and the same products several authors can work at once, and Unity is a product of Terry and Julien. I don't see any problem with such an approach.

Authors can do what they like, but only goddamn publishers release their products and state what is canon and what is not. Please, remember a precendent with Republic Commando novel series from Star Wars. When Clone Wars animation was released, the content of novels fall from canon, and the author - Karen Traviss - announced that she'll not write a thing in a SW sandbox anymore. But again, a publisher got the last word.

As for me, I hate Ashan, 'cos it is so DULL! Yes, it is separate universe, all the like. And Jassad Attqua in M&M10 - oh, just another easter egg, not canon. But as Marzhin stated, everyone free to interpret "canon" as they like, 'cos a situation in which Ubi's management got the universe from the start is so stupid.
think we have fairly different approaches to be honest, I respect your approach, I personally think you can have a less purist approach to canon than "it isn't published so it isn't canon", if for example JK Rowling says Dumbledore is gay but didn't put it in a book it can still be valid and canon, Terry Ray unproduced plots or Gryphonheart bastard brothers plot for sure are valid IMO lol

Unity is product of NWC, Jennifer Bullard and Terry Ray though, the script is canon for me, or anything Jennifer Bullard or Terry Ray add themselves, but a random person from Team Erwin fifteen years later prompting in Terry Ray's ear things he can scribble out or add in, err no thank you you can keep that, all kudos for making some maps adapted from the plot and all, but I'm here specifically for Terry Ray unadulterated story without any highly questionable fan modifications lol

there's also an signpost saying "Fordhal the Mad was here" in the Mayhem map lol, come on that obnoxious wink wink nudge nudge fan service references to 25 year old games like that are such a shoehorn, have some restraint even for five minutes man please, I mean are we trying to have authentic map design that resembles a Heroes 4 campaign here or just a big continuity fest lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Baronus » Feb 28 2016, 20:15

Canon or not we want reconstruct all stories which can be used to new campaigns. If we hear that Terry has old textes we want see an use it. It is normal thing for HIV lovers. And it must be maximum original resource. It is important to us. If it is unfinished we invent rest. But there is no sense to build HIV campaign based on HVII textes. We want campaign which was able be if was be realised 15 years ago.

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Akul » Feb 29 2016, 18:02

I don't really care about additions as authors do it all the time but... why this one? Unlike the M&M games, HoMM games avoided such references in a very wide angle. I know Marzhin loves this part of M&M lore, but it just doesn't fit the old HoMM games for me.
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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Marzhin » Mar 17 2016, 10:54

Unity is product of NWC, Jennifer Bullard and Terry Ray though, the script is canon for me, or anything Jennifer Bullard or Terry Ray add themselves, but a random person from Team Erwin fifteen years later prompting in Terry Ray's ear things he can scribble out or add in, err no thank you you can keep that, all kudos for making some maps adapted from the plot and all, but I'm here specifically for Terry Ray unadulterated story without any highly questionable fan modifications lol
Well, good thing for you my "contribution" to the narrative texts of the Lost Tales is maybe 20 words in total then ^^

Besides, at no point in the campaign anyone says "that is the one truth!". It's only one of several possible explanations of what the Broken Isles are. You can also go for the "a land broken during a great war among the gods" explanation, which is 100% from Terry. It's up to you, I won't judge :)

Also, some people want to keep the lore of Heroes and the Might & Magic RPGs separate, some don't. This is nothing new. It's been an age-old debate in the community since at least Heroes III.

In the second Lost Tale (Dogwoggle's story) there's only one addition to Terry's original text: we added a quick reference to Dogwoggle going to Lodwar in the ending cutscene, just to connect the dots with The Gathering Storm (but I suppose you're going to tell me you don't consider TGS canon either since Jennifer and Terry haven't worked on it :p).

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Mar 17 2016, 13:19

first thank you to react three weeks later,
Well, good thing for you my "contribution" to the narrative texts of the Lost Tales is maybe 20 words in total then ^^
yah 20 words is 20 words too many IMO, should be 0 words,
is better off to just leave the story the way it is and not give in to fan urges to tamper, if someone in Ubisoft can't be in 2002 to define the original story they cannot position themselves as author even whether they want to be lol
Besides, at no point in the campaign anyone says "that is the one truth!". It's only one of several possible explanations of what the Broken Isles are. You can also go for the "a land broken during a great war among the gods" explanation, which is 100% from Terry. It's up to you, I won't judge :)
that's just humblebrag, there is no justified purpose to put in the other possible explanations Terry didn't write,
be fair as a fan and put your personal fan analysis on a discussion forum like the rest of us, if I was in a privileged position in Team Erwin I would be very fair and just say "hello Mr Terry, we need an intro cutscene for the maps, please write the cutscene, good luck",

instead of like saying "eyy Terry, old buddy, I was playing Might and Magic 3 again this week, I personally feel like retrofitting your islands into a spaceship like in Might and Magic 3 because then it will be a reference, do you give your permission and approve my personal theory", I mean that's clearly leading the author a certain direction and tampering with it,
Also, some people want to keep the lore of Heroes and the Might & Magic RPGs separate, some don't. This is nothing new. It's been an age-old debate in the community since at least Heroes III.
well "some people" include devs of Heroes 4, I myself like Elemental Lords, I could say Terry "hey you didn't give names to Elemental Lords, let's use the Elemental Lord names of Might and Magic, Gralkor etc," but how would I know if he meant those Elemental Lords back in 2002, so that would be me biasing the story, fan service and irresponsible lol

or I could say maybe since Genevieve is pretty emotionless maybe she is an android assembled by the Ancients in a brothel to fix the world magic system, nothing contradicts that, and it's just one of several possible explanations of what she is so what do you think, why not add it in right, lol

just leave such pollution out IMO lol
In the second Lost Tale (Dogwoggle's story) there's only one addition to Terry's original text: we added a quick reference to Dogwoggle going to Lodwar in the ending cutscene, just to connect the dots with The Gathering Storm (but I suppose you're going to tell me you don't consider TGS canon either since Jennifer and Terry haven't worked on it :p).
no, I don't see what kind of logic where you would be able to suppose that, unless you equate yourself with Christian Vanover, who was at NWC for several years, not a fan who got into Ubisoft coming along a decade later to alter the original story with personal ideas and theories lol

back for Heroes 6 I couldn't play DLC maps because game was unplayable bad, but did look them up, and they had many questionable fan theories as fact, but for those you were at least open that they are just fan fiction, however this time IMO please avoid to have double standards,

if you would kindly release the original script the way it was that would be good, so we would know what is the fanfic and what is authentic, is not for me but for the fans making the campaign for Heroes 4 as it should have been, they just want the authentic text not the made up stuff lol

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Marzhin » Mar 17 2016, 16:10

You know, when working on video games (or any team endeavour, I suspect) it's never one writer in a corner without input from anybody else. No man is an island. There are always discussions between the writer(s) and the game/level/narrative designer(s), and these discussions almost always bring changes to the story. What you call "tampering" is actually a normal working process, and most writers I know -- Terry included -- actually demand this feedback, these opinions and ideas. Whether or not anything is added to the story in the end, however, is the author's sole prerogative.

No writer worth his salt will accept to put things in his story that he doesn't agree with. This has nothing to do with "being a nice guy" or whatever. It's about being an author.
if you would kindly release the original script the way it was that would be good, so we would know what is the fanfic and what is authentic, is not for me but for the fans making the campaign for Heroes 4 as it should have been, they just want the authentic text not the made up stuff lol
I had already planned to release it, once both Lost Tales are completed.

But in any case it's pretty easy. The only texts I contributed to were the intro and outro cutscene texts. The narrative texts within the maps themselves have not been modified, with only one exception (IIRC): the Golem Seer quest text in map 1, as it was referring skills from H4 (originally the seer was asking Genevieve to improve her Order skill, not Arcane Knowledge). Here's the original line:
"No, I no longer teach, but perhaps I can still help you. I can give you the Golems standing outside — I have no need of them anymore. But you'll have to prove to me that you're ready for them. Return here when all your skills in Order magic are at least Advanced.”

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Mar 17 2016, 16:48

You know, when working on video games (or any team endeavour, I suspect) it's never one writer in a corner without input from anybody else. No man is an island. There are always discussions between the writer(s) and the game/level/narrative designer(s), and these discussions almost always bring changes to the story. What you call "tampering" is actually a normal working process, and most writers I know -- Terry included -- actually demand this feedback, these opinions and ideas. Whether or not anything is added to the story in the end, however, is the author's sole prerogative.

No writer worth his salt will accept to put things in his story that he doesn't agree with. This has nothing to do with "being a nice guy" or whatever. It's about being an author.
very beside the point of this entire discussion, you can do whatever you want with Erwin's Ashan IMO, that's your playpen and you can author that,
the issue is you are not involved in ownership of this particular story, we are talking about a story that was produced over 14 years ago in another era for another game and another team, the narrative designer of Heroes 4 was not invited to the party and even the text author himself may have become a different person in many ways by now,

also the edits we talk about are pure fan preference and not demanded whatsoever from a design perspective, (except this Arcane Knowledge text edit which is a fair enough and necessary UE tweak,) lol

let's regulate ourselves as fans and rein ourselves in, by not using privilege to tamper with a story that is nothing to do with us and is already written IMO, it's gratuitous and questionable for all the reasons above, leave the work as close to the way it was in 2002 and edit only if absolutely necessary, or else the only thing is to be fair and have a free for all where everyone can appeal to Terry to insert edits and theories into the story lol
The only texts I contributed to were the intro and outro cutscene texts.
you also added a good number of adventure map texts like Fordhal the Mad is here text and some other pieces too, I can tell from the different style, they stick out lol
I had already planned to release it, once both Lost Tales are completed.
thanks that would be ideal

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Marzhin » Mar 17 2016, 17:43

I believe we'll never see eye to eye about this, so let's agree to disagree.
you also added a good number of adventure map texts like Fordhal the Mad is here text and some other pieces too, I can tell from the different style, they stick out lol
A "good number of them", eh? Are you willing to bet? :tongue:

The Foerdhal the Mad joke is indeed mine (since it was already discussed above I didn't think I had to mention it again), but I haven't written any other "adventure map text". IIRC there's actually only one other signpost in the whole campaign, the one containing the credits in the final map.

I did write most of the quest log UI texts (quest names, objectives and the like) because Terry had not written them all back then. That's why I specifically mentioned "narrative" texts in my previous post. However he had usually written quest descriptions, and the general campaign and map descriptions are his as well. But I don't think that's what you call "adventure map text".

So no, all narrative text boxes during the maps were written by Terry. Sorry for your ability to distinguish styles :D

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Re: The Lost Tales of Axeoth

Postby Erwinner » Mar 17 2016, 18:55

A "good number of them", eh? Are you willing to bet? :tongue:

The Foerdhal the Mad joke is indeed mine (since it was already discussed above I didn't think I had to mention it again), but I haven't written any other "adventure map text". IIRC there's actually only one other signpost in the whole campaign, the one containing the credits in the final map.

I did write most of the quest log UI texts (quest names, objectives and the like) because Terry had not written them all back then. That's why I specifically mentioned "narrative" texts in my previous post. However he had usually written quest descriptions, and the general campaign and map descriptions are his as well. But I don't think that's what you call "adventure map text".

So no, all narrative text boxes during the maps were written by Terry. Sorry for your ability to distinguish styles :D
this would be Pullitzer Prize winningly amusing and witty retort, if you didn't force it to for some reason rule out quest texts as adventure map texts lol, or name all the "visiting shells", also I see some foibles in some other texts, like your patented two consecutive hyphens from the typewriter era instead of a dash, --, I never saw Terry Ray use those lol

by the way something I criticize, and I don't care who is responsible, is the bit of casual sexism included in the text, both Genevieve and Arril get these texts "this was where he'd find it. Or rather... she" and "him... or her" as if player is supposed to say whooooaaa, it's a woman, can't believe it, sorry that's a bit sexist, why is it an afterthought that it would be a woman lol

if I was already going around editing texts I might edit that text to be more egalitarian lol


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