1K - thats Crazy!

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
Gekneldeland
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1K - thats Crazy!

Unread postby Gekneldeland » 13 Mar 2009, 08:56

I'm a bit new to MM. A week ago I Lended my brother's game and gave it a shot. I originally turned up my nose for the chessboard game style and avoided the game. My brother reckond it's good but who cares what you're little brother says - heh!

This is really a terrific game. I ordered the Gold edition this week and can't wait to get my hands on the expansions!

So, aaaaanyway. To get to the point.

I've been playing a skirmish game made with a so-called random map generator. So, at one point I'm armed with a few hundreds of troops and a level 24 heroe - hey, I'm feeling like some death god. So I romp and stomp to the AI's 'pathetic'excuse for a kingdom and...

...there they are. A marvel of computer generated numbers. 1K, 2K - A beast of fine tuned strategy and cheating. And my army suddenly feels a bit out of place. You know, like Quest for Fire in the Atomic Age. It's just wrong.

Now, I understand the AI cheats - no problem. But how in blazes does het recruit so many units! It's impossible. I'm taking weeks and weeks to get a decent amount.

I try to aim for recruitment on one of my heroes and leave him in the city. Also, the extra % gained from certain city upgrades takes WAY too long. I stick to one heroe and build him up as fast and best I could. But I need units!

I've read somewhere here some people get up to a 120 of a single unit type every week. Is there some upgrade or ability I am missing? Or do I just need to play VERY carefully with my units.


Thanks for reading!

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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 13 Mar 2009, 13:14

1 K of what? Skeleton, Goblins? It really depends on your oponent and Weeks, but Skeletons and Goblins are easiliy generated over 1K in long games. Gremlins and Peasant are powerstacks too, but don't worry really. Neither of the above four (except Skeletons) are really dangerous, not even in High Numbers. Just a fact. Oh and what town where you playing?

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Unread postby Wolfsburg » 13 Mar 2009, 13:31

Hi Geknel,

Indeed AI cheats. You got that right. More correctly spoken AI is allowed to cheat. The higher the difficulty level the more advantages they are granted, in order to present a decent threat. Apparently, to program very intelligent AI in this game is a ridiculously hard job, so they went the easy way, which is keeping the intelligence level average all the way and granting the computer some dirty advantages, specially resources.

(For the exact advantages and numbers, take a look at the fan-made manuals around or hope Asheera or any of the other high brains here in the RT jump in and save the day)

This particularly painful topic has fueled more than enough discussion along those years, as you can check by the vast number of AI criticism threads.

But now, this doesnt mean hard or even "impossible" difficulty are made to be actually impossible. It is most assuredly not the case.

As a beginner you will very likely make some ordinary and some few serious mistakes on your way to the top, and only experience will teach you not to make those again. You can and will, of course, profit from discussions here in the RT and from tips you will eventually get from some expert and advanced players we got around.

Now, this is a fantastically broad game, with a plethora of skills, abilities and strategies. This makes quite hard to throw in some punctual strategies and think that will actually help you on your actual match. But here are some small pieces of advice for the next games.

1 - Read about how to develop your hero. To distribute skill points is one the thoughest jobs in this game, and a wrong pick can delay your evolution or even ruin your main hero.

2 - Learn to develop your town. Thats also a complicated task in the beginning. But you gotta determine which are the fundamental units of your army (varies according to strategy), and how fast you gotta go for them. This means you are not going for all upgrades as soon as possible. This will most likely drain your resources and prevent you from getting those magma dragons on week 2-3.

3 - Learn how to prevent losses when fighting neutral stacks. After a while you will understand some combinations allow your main hero to walk around with nothing but a couple of stacks that are highly effective when combined and that will most likely kick any neutrals butt without losses.

Thats it for now.

Good luck and lots of fun.

W.

Gekneldeland
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Unread postby Gekneldeland » 13 Mar 2009, 13:56

@ Lakely. I'm playing Haven and I bumped into a mass (1K) of Nightmares. Pretty intense stuff ;)

@Wolfsburg. Thanks for the advice!

As I said, I have no problem at the moment with cheating AI. It's just the strategy I'm a bit stuck with. The manual is pretty weak. It only gives you the VERY bare essentials on the game.

So it all boils down to specializing... right. Can't wait to get home!

Thanks again. ;)

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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 13 Mar 2009, 14:20

In Tribes of the East, there is a full manual in the FanDocuments folder. It's THE guide you need to read.

Oh, and Recruitement sucks for Haven btw :P It's only good for Divine Guidance ;)

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Unread postby Wolfsburg » 13 Mar 2009, 14:31

Not necessarily Lakely. He means recruitment for the second hero I am sure. And thats never bad IMO.

And Geknel: unfortunatelly you got one of my weakest spots here. My skills with haven are rudimentary at most. I am affraid I cant offer you too much advice on that one.

But again, we got many other experienced players here, and I am sure they will be willing to contribute most of the time.

Another thing that might help you further develop, is too study combat replays from advanced players. This will surely boost your understanding of essencial and advanced combat strategy.

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Unread postby Asheera » 13 Mar 2009, 15:02

The AI cheats in battles with neutrals, that's obvious and can not even be tested - one could even say that it is so smart that it defeats 60 Archangels with a week 3 Inferno army, but the truth most probably is that it cheats. After all, the AI from the neutral stacks could just wait and defend the entire battle for the AI player :D

Now for the resources, it is not certain whether it does cheat at higher difficulties or gets creatures for a reduced cost. But the starting resources are indeed more than for the human player on Heroic.
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 13 Mar 2009, 18:03

Just keep playing and you will improve. Yes the manual can help, but I find it more useful reading tips on the forums.

It's a random map right? So it's possible that opponent has more external dwellings or even castles than you.

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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 15 Mar 2009, 00:22

Wolfsburg wrote:Not necessarily Lakely. He means recruitment for the second hero I am sure. And thats never bad IMO.
Those 3 Peasants, 2 Archers and 1 Footman won't make any difference. Not even in the long run. If it were Dungeon, Sylvan, even Inferno, it would have been completely different. Haven has too high Growth and their lower levels die too quickly to have Recruitement make any difference. It's not a total waste tho, because of Div. Guidance and, of course, eventhough tiny, a bonus is a bonus. But taking Recruitement just because of the Growth Bonus is, with Haven, An insignificant move.

As for the rest, I agree with the reast said here.

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Unread postby Gekneldeland » 16 Mar 2009, 07:08

I downloaded the manual and it is quite a big difference - thanks!

So anyway... what I've figured out over the weekend:


Using every turn resourcefully makes a big difference
I use my Heroes mostly to transport troops and only build up one... although, I did have a problem covering my backside at a later stage in the game. So, I upgrade a 2nd heroe but mostly through treasure chests and weak creature groups. If he gets to about level 15-20 I'm happy.

I don't use Angels - They SUCK. They are only good for resurrection and costs WAY TOO MUCH. I usually end up only having 20-30...

I love archers. They rule.

I really manhandle my Squires cause they can really take a punch. Like them too :)

In towns I aim for extra growth advancements as soons as possible

I think it's Elaine(?) but she's stunning with peasunt taxes. Money is my friend especially later when I buy a lot of resources for buildings.

My biggest headache is transporting troops across the map. It's a whole management onto itself. And the Knights ability to transport troops suck. Well I think so.

Also, 2K troops are not that bad anymore :). Skeleton archers really suck even at 2K.

I'm still losing horribly. :D

Dunno. Just some thoughts

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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 16 Mar 2009, 07:56

Some answers
Gekneldeland wrote: I don't use Angels - They SUCK. They are only good for resurrection and costs WAY TOO MUCH. I usually end up only having 20-30...
Incorrect. Archangels and Seraphim are two of the best Lvl 7s. Their damage is high, they last quite long AND they fly. Seraphim even have DIVINE VENGEANCE, which is easily the most Imbalanced spell in the Game. Ressurrection is flimsy, yet effective. Angels play an ESSENTIAL part in Haven's midgame. Use them and you will see.

Gekneldeland wrote:I think it's Elaine(?) but she's stunning with peasunt taxes. Money is my friend especially later when I buy a lot of resources for buildings.
I'm sorry, but this is a mistake. Ellaine is by far the worst Hero in the game. The Extra Tax makes NO difference in the end, and she's only usefull for Recruitement and those 150 peasant she brings with her on day 1. I'd suggest you try Irina instead. She is, imo, the strongest Knight. (easy creeper, excellent main)
gekneldeland wrote:My biggest headache is transporting troops across the map. It's a whole management onto itself. And the Knights ability to transport troops suck. Well I think so.
Huh? Do you mean Summon Creatures? Don't use it with Knights (except for the Higher levels), as it requires mana beyond their reach otherwise. Instead, make sure you have Logistics.
Gekneldeland wrote:I'm still losing horribly. :D
Practice makes perfect. Lower your difficulty or keep trying. In the end either solution will result in a win. (it did with me)

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Unread postby Gekneldeland » 16 Mar 2009, 08:25

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll give the Angels a fair try tonight. I just felt they did'nt do much. Compare them to archers. Archers are cheap and in numbers they rock. With archery skill they really shine. Mmm, will see.

I've read somewhere that there is a strategy involving only Paladins a and Angels. Can't imagine that at the moment but hey, I'm still VERY wet behind the ears.

Uh, yes... sorry. I use summon creatures. Logistics? So, if I understand this right, I'll be using logistics on two lower level Knights to take my troops from my castles to my Bad Ass Knight holding the frontline?

Or, I transport them to a closeby town and use summon creatures.

Come to think of it. I'm kinda doing the opposite of what you suggest. The worst heroes are my best. The best units are my worst. Mmm, no wonder I'm still losing horribly. :D

Thanks again!

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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 16 Mar 2009, 08:38

Gekneldeland wrote: Uh, yes... sorry. I use summon creatures. Logistics? So, if I understand this right, I'll be using logistics on two lower level Knights to take my troops from my castles to my Bad Ass Knight holding the frontline?

Thanks again!
Yep :tsup:

And no problem ^^

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Unread postby parcaleste » 16 Mar 2009, 10:48

You can also always try to get the Mentoring skill (you'll need Expert Enlightenment, Scholar and Intelligence so to open the slot). It's a sick skill! I remember I was playing a map on which I reached the Level Cap (Level 40) and meet an secondary hero of Level 1 - the bastard pumped him up to 38 or so Level. :D It can do miracles with your secondary heroes - you can drop them experience each and every time when they meet your main hero. As for the hero, I use mostly Klaus - jousting bonus is cool and it's getting cooler if you use the Training correctly (usually I am going for Cavaliers + some Priests to fill a hole with the numbers here and there). And yes, there is no use to carry your whole army with you, Champions and Archangels can do some insane stuff, esp. if you are lucky to have Resurrection in the Mage Tower or Tom of Light (even though I prefer Expert Dark and Vampyrism, this way you'll need only the Champs, with dealing with the neutrals :D ).


Also check this link for the artifacts sets: http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/he ... sets.shtml it's really useful!

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PhoenixReborn
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 16 Mar 2009, 11:32

Mentoring is cheating!

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parcaleste
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Unread postby parcaleste » 16 Mar 2009, 15:47

Says who? :D

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Unread postby Wolfsburg » 16 Mar 2009, 20:35

parcaleste wrote: And yes, there is no use to carry your whole army with you, Champions and Archangels can do some insane stuff, esp. if you are lucky to have Resurrection in the Mage Tower or Tom of Light (even though I prefer Expert Dark and Vampyrism, this way you'll need only the Champs, with dealing with the neutrals :D ).
Hiya Geknel, I hope you r still having fun with the game.

There is an important fact that you should take into account. Part of that said by Lakely might be part of a somewhat consensus, but much of it is his personal opinion. I see nothing bad in having recruitment-Ellaine as secondary hero, specially in short maps where you have no expectative making your secondary hero an actual threat. Serves her purpose just right.

Tip: I do advice you to pay attention to the circumstances before choosing your magic school. Knights can excel as dark casters, and there are few things scarrier than paladins/champions with vampirism on them.

Nice games!

W.

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Unread postby Gekneldeland » 17 Mar 2009, 09:13

@ Parcaleste. Level 40! Mentoring sounds incredible. I always drag my whole army around and stomp across the land on a personal death march... or I used to.

@ Phoenixreborn. Why cheating? If it's in the game, a skill or attribute or spell and not a cheatcode or something... is'nt it fair game?

@ Wolfsburg. Thats exactly what I do with her, and six other useless Knights only filling small voids in recruitment, training costs etc.

I'm always going for light magic but they are (seemingly) only really usefull combined with Archangels and Paladins.

Dark casters? Mmm. So you have the resurrection ability of Archangels and vampirism does sorta the same thing, right? Sounds like a vicious combo!

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Unread postby parcaleste » 17 Mar 2009, 12:17

Level 40, but have in mind it was a custom map on which I did put some of these free level treas. ;) You'll have to kill INSANE numbers of neutrals to get to that by yourself. Still, from level 27 you can pump another hero up to 20 or somewhere around. Thus you can have them secondary with Logistics (Pathfinding + Scouting -> Snatch), Luck (Resourcefulness and perhaps Spoils of War) and Leadership with Recruitment. I would recommend with your main hero to go for Empathy and Retribution (this one is easy to get with the Knights and can do an insane amount of damage when you combo with artifacts, up to + 50% to damage without counting when you have visit Fountain of Fortune or whatever!). I am doing a combo with Light, Dark Magic and Enlightenment here and this is pretty much enough for me... esp. when you pump the magic schools with Twilight (+3 SP for both Light and Dark) and Fallen Knight (+5 SP for Dark). It's a cool boost. :D And also remember these spells - Mass Slow and Mass Confusion. Also Frenzy and Puppet Master, lol.
Last edited by parcaleste on 18 Mar 2009, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 17 Mar 2009, 13:06

Technically it may not be cheating but it can definitely kill your fun.

Imagine you have spent ten hours creeping, carefully picking skills against what you think your opponents main hero might have, and then in one turn you are hit with 4 heroes (with 7 single level 1's) who have a strong armageddon wiping out most of your army and then the 5th hero is the enemies main hero with full army.

Not fun.


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