School Rankings

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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PhoenixReborn
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Postby PhoenixReborn » Feb 21 2009, 5:10

fiur wrote:but as I say... I'm a noob so... what do I know...


Yessir this Fiur guy is only a pixie on Celestial Heavens. What a noob.

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Postby Wolfsburg » Mar 6 2009, 17:03

Lol, indeed a newbie like you wouldn't believe. ;)

But again, there is a matter which has to be adressed. Are we talking single player or multiplayer?

This makes a world of a difference. AI handles some sorts of magic much suckier than others. Dark magic for instance can mostly turn any AI insides out, since they dont use vampirism to counter mental curses or place units accordingly to avoid or minimize the devastating effects of a frenzied neighbour. And this as a small example, there are plenty of other effects within dark magic that are literally AI-killers.

Opposite to multiplaying, in which you will possibly face someone who is as smart or smarter then you, and thats going to make your life as a dark caster a living hell, just by placing their units correctly, dispelling the right curses on the right units, and so on.

So, although I agree with Fiur completely, I have to say many of the voters for this poll are single players, and this is a whole different perspective of school magic usefulness.

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Milla aka. the Slayer
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Postby Milla aka. the Slayer » Mar 12 2009, 21:07

1. Destructive Magic.
2. Dark Magic
3. Light Magic
4. Summoning Magic

I just loooooove destructive magic. I try to get it everytime! :-D
So far, though I am still a novice in H5, summoning magic has not helped me in any way in any game. It's just space-filler :disagree:
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Postby Lord Lakely » Mar 12 2009, 22:14

Generally, I would rank them like this

Haven: Light is the best school here, as it immensively speeds up Haven's Battle Game Play. Out of Dark and Destructive, Destructive is obviously inferior (lack of both Spellpower and Spells)

1) Light
2) Dark
3) Destructive

Inferno: Again, imo Light is the best school: There's are many Damage Ranges to fill, High Initiatives of Multiply, Strength to enhance; If you are lucky with your spells and Skills, Light will greatly outshine Dark, time after time. However, Lack of spells and skills, do make Dark a more reliable candidate overall (Especially with Frenzy)! Destructive's only use is to damage the Enemy's Armor or to Freeze/Stun them and to get to Fiery Wrath.

1) Light/Dark
2) Destructive

Necropolis: Without Dark, Necro game-play will be a lot harder than it should be. Necro is one out of two factions where Summoning is NOT the Worst school, in this case it's the second best. If Necro is lucky when it comes to spells, the might prefer Destructive to Summoning, since their Spellpower can be CRAZILY HIGH at times. Light is not a real option for me, though Divine Strength can be really handy.

1) Dark
2) Destructive
3) Light


Sylvan: The Choice between Light and Dark depends on the map. On Small maps, or during Rushes, Destructive. Light works a lot better with BIG Armies, so I generally take it on Large maps. In the end, It usually depends on the Spells and whether I'm able to get War Machines or not. Dark is simply a crazy skill to take. I once had the luck of capturing a Necropolis in my last Sylvan (Single Player) Game. There's came the Rain of Frenzy and The Tripple Ballista Imbued with Mass Expert Vulnerability. It's crazy, and I would prefer it to Destructive, if I am able to get the right spells. Because of this, I rank it lower than Light/Destructive, which are, imo, Tied.

1) Light/Destructive
2) Dark


Dungeon: Logical. Destructive. Nuff said. Light and Dark are quite evenly matched imo here.

1) Destructive
2) Light/Dark


Academy: In Academy's case, I'd rank Summoning first, closesly followed by Dark, and both of them are quite nicely combined with MotW. Spawn Hives, Traps, Frenzies or even Vampirisms galore. Third imo, is Destructive, due to the Wizard's flexible Magic Potential. Light is not that strong here, as there isn't that much to buff - Well, Nothing that Artificier can't solve anywat.

1) Dark
2) Destructive
3) Light


Fortress: Just with Academy, Light is not the best of choices imo. Dwarves generally have low (or none) damage ranges, low initiative, low attack and High Defence => The things that block the Effectivity of Light Magic imo. Though Mass Endurance and Mass Deflect Missile can make your units impervious to all attacks. Luckily, Runes are able to solve this weakness. The best School for Fortress is Destructive, reflected in both (Rune of) Elemental Immunities and High Spellpower. A Rune Mage's Implosion can match the one of Necromancer, and sometimes even those of a Warlock. I never really took Dark with Fortress, as it's rare... and I hardly ever play them anyway. I'll leave that part to the more experienced players.

1) Destructive
2) Light

[Dark?]

I've left Summoning out if the equasion, as it would (except for Necro) be Last place anyway. Summoning is more of a Supportive school, which doesn't really work very effectively on it's own. It's potent, but Light's Mass Spells, Dark's Frenzy/Puppet/Vampirism or Destructive's Implo will do much more than Phoenix or Blade Barrier. Or at least, most of the Time.

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Postby Asheera » Mar 12 2009, 22:36

You are quite wrong here, Summoning is not that weak for some factions. For example, Dungeon does benefit from it (powerful Phoenix, Hive, etc) - and I'd say it is better than Dark (not sure about Light)

Phantom Forces, could also be very useful for Inferno/Haven (since it's not dependable on spellpower - and might faction clones are also better than magic ones)
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Postby blizzardboy » Mar 13 2009, 22:47

It's funny how the two schools that Inferno hardly ever gets work so well for it :p

I've always thought Inferno was king with light magic if you manage to get the spells, but I'm 75% convinced that Summoning Inferno is the best. Inferno doesn't have very impressive spellpower, but they're a faction that can afford to dish out the expensive summoning spells nonstop: particularly phantom forces, which is naturally a great spell for Inferno because they have the mana to keep using it, and because of the high attack/low defense. Even with a 10 spellpower, I still think Phoenix is a worthwhile spell (and Inferno can afford it), and they can drop down wasp hives, which although the damage is poor, keep killing units initiative. I think another reason is that having a Phoenix on the battlefield on top of the gated stacks gives you yet another big unit to clog the field and inhibit enemy movement. Also, inferno has a hard time keeping it's original units alive, and having raise dead to keep them up while your summoned+gated armies keep pounding away can be a lifesaver.

Even as I type this, I recognize that my argument doesn't look very convincing on paper, but I've played with summoning inferno several times and it always seems to work great.

Summoning is also wicked with Academy because there's a ton of effective motw combinations to use with summoning spells (raise dead, firetrap :evil:, arcane armor, crystal, wasp hive).

It's such a confusing school to rank because it's so weak and yet... so strong. I guess that's why ranking the schools is ultimately a waste of time.

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Postby Wolfsburg » Mar 16 2009, 18:52

blizzardboy wrote: I guess that's why ranking the schools is ultimately a waste of time.


In the RT nothing is a waste of time, BB. You see how much productive debate and different perspectives we got simply for discussing magic schools and their uses?

I, for instance, never tryied summoning inferno, and just by reading your description I got quite curious about giving it a try on PvP.

We are not trying to reach a consensus here. We are doing what we do best. Wasting time by happily discussing a game with almost infinite possibilities. And thats beautiful.

Btw, in my personal experience, under the right conditions, summoning can rock an opponent like a hurricane.

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Postby Elrond » Apr 3 2009, 23:26

The question of ranking school is a bit useless for me, because some castle are better with certain combo of schools an others are better with others combo... and we can ad to this that some schools can be developped in order to counter opponent school !

For example, i can't imagine a hero without any aoe magic dmg able to face an academy hero with mark of the wizard + mass confusion (=no ripost), and ghost image.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Apr 5 2009, 22:28

It varies a bit by faction but in general:

Dark
Light
Destruction
Summoning

The mass spells and disabling/controlling spells give Dark a clear advantage.

As in the previous thread summoning could be significantly improved with better perks.

It is also insane that might heroes can cast mass spells just as good as magic heroes and that those mass spells are low level spells.
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Postby Elrond » Apr 6 2009, 4:21

It seems that many people think summoning the worst one, but i would ad:

summoning: not the strongest alone , but in coordination with dark or light it becomes veryyyy strong.

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Postby Plerikas » May 27 2009, 11:09

1: Dark
2: Light
3: Summoning
4: Destructive

Haven't played HoMMV for long so I haven't gotten around to play with Destructive or Summoning magic as much I as would like.

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Postby Elias_Maluco » May 29 2009, 21:30

I agree with most here:

1- Dark:
Puppet, frenzy, blindness, vampirism, mass confusion, mass slow: the most effective, mean, unfair spells in the game. With dark you even got one of the best spell against dark: vampirism. With dark you can disble to most powerful armies, you can even turn then against thenselves.

2- light:
all good masses, always usefull, mass cleansing agaisnt dark, ressurection, divine vengence (can do a lot more damage than any destructive spell). Makes your army more powerful and effective, always.

3- destructive: can be really effective with you have a LOT of spellpower, useless otherwise. Is really great at early game, falls behind late, when you are facing badass heroes with high defense, mean spells, lots of disabling spells and huge armies.

4- summoning:
great in theory, not that effective in pratice. With you have a huge spellpower, summons can be really strong. But one phoenix cant win a battle. Raise dead is only good for undead, elementals are way too random and too slow. Never found much use for the rest of the spells, perhaps I should try then again.

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Postby lumpoor » Jun 13 2009, 16:06

1. Dark

Seriously, puppet master? Frenzy? Not only waste the enemies turn, but make them go against themselves? Your army can be tiny, but you can still win as long as the enemies go against each other.

I mean seriously, I've on against 150 archangels and 1500 footmen with 104 vampires and 250 spectres thanks to puppet master. Controlled the angels, kiled the footmen, then let the angel wait while my vampires and ghosts slowly attacked them over and over. The enemy was seriously helpless, what could he do?

Oh, mass confusion is also great, especially for creeping

2. Light

Boooooring. I never really notice any difference with these small buffs and such. But everyone says it's so good so...

Oh, and why do sylvans use this? You can't imbue arrows with buffs, duh! What if you could shoot your owns tropps though? hm...

3. Summoning

It's good. Haven't used it so much but... It's awesome

4.

A thing I hate about heroes, is that there are so many things that are cool in the the beginning, but then are lost because of bad scaling. Destruction spells, harm touch, vorpal blade, ballistas etc.

It's like when both you and your enemy get big armies, some parts of the game dissapear and become obsolete, and only percentual stuff persists.

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Postby Banedon » Jun 15 2009, 2:55

lumpoor wrote:I mean seriously, I've on against 150 archangels and 1500 footmen with 104 vampires and 250 spectres thanks to puppet master. Controlled the angels, kiled the footmen, then let the angel wait while my vampires and ghosts slowly attacked them over and over. The enemy was seriously helpless, what could he do?


*cough* single player alert *cough*

I once killed ~200 Flame Thanes with 4 Rakshaha Kshrati and 1 Archmage. Used Zehir's Conjure Phoenix, threw Deep Freeze and more Conjure Phoenixes as the first one died, then cast Resurrection on the Rakshaha Kshrati (they only got hit once) to win the battle with a grand loss of one Archmage. The Flame Thanes were helpless, they couldn't hit what I did not want them to hit and all of them died to that single Phoenix.

Does that prove Summoning Magic is the strongest? No more than your story proves Dark Magic is the strongest. I'll stress this ...

If you are going against a Dark Magic user and leave yourself defenseless against his curses, you deserve to lose.

That means Protection, Magic Resistance, Shatter Dark, Silver Unicorn Magic Resistance aura, Cleansing, etc. This will seriously weaken a Dark Magic caster. Dark Magic only appears to be overpowered against a defenseless target. Think about it. If you know your opponent has a 40% chance of resisting Puppet Master, and if you know your opponent has tools to remove it even if you get it through (Cleansing, Magical Immunity), will you seriously risk a Puppet Master as your first action in the last fight?

Not to say Dark Magic isn't powerful, but the really good spells in Dark Magic aren't Frenzy / Puppet Master / Blind. They are great to have and can accentuate a winning situation or force the opponent into awkward moves - it could for example force the opponent to sacrifice his hero turn, which can be a fantastic trade depending on the situation. But they aren't the best. The really good Dark spells are Mass Confusion and Mass Slow. Their effects are devastating, and they are almost guaranteed to affect some important stacks.

PS: It'll take your Spectres and Vampires many many turns to kill 130 Archangels, during which a strong enemy hero ought to be able to destroy both stacks (think Empowered Implosion and Conjure Phoenix).

lumpoor wrote:A thing I hate about heroes, is that there are so many things that are cool in the the beginning, but then are lost because of bad scaling. Destruction spells, harm touch, vorpal blade, ballistas etc.


Those are (again), multiplayer things. Multiplayer games typically don't last longer than 8 weeks, and that's pretty long already. Destructive Magic is still extremely deadly at 8 weeks and can deal tens of thousands of damage. I've got no complaints about it, other than you need to get lucky with the associated spell and skill (eg. Master of Ice -> Deep Freeze), or else to delay your skill choice until you've built the Mage Guild.
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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Jun 15 2009, 20:49

This is analogous to arguing about whether or not a bow is better than a sword. I'd say it depends on situation.

IMO, Destruction and Summoning tend to be most useful in early to mid-game (~first 8 weeks) when troops sizes are small. They also are relatively more useful than the other schools when it comes to killing neutrals (fire trap, hive, ice bolt, quick sand, arcane crystal, etc).

Light and Dark magic are generally useful when troop sizes are large, mass perks are picked, and level 4 spells are obtained. I'd say they will tend to dominate after the 6th week or so.

With that said, the general opinion will tend to be biased towards Light/Dark by the single player experience where astronomical numbers of troops are involved. This, in turn, may be inaccurate as actual multiplayer games do not last nearly that long, as Bane said.

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Postby lumpoor » Jun 16 2009, 12:05

Banedon wrote:*cough* single player alert *cough*



Well, I only play single player, so the enemies are always defenseless :/


But I agree that they're all good for different situations. Destruction is for high spell power heroes doing small scale battles (although that's quite rare except campaigns) and mid-game sylvan

Light is for low spell power, end-game and creeping (ressurection)

Summoning is good in the same situations as destruction (except sylvan ofc).

Dark is for end-game only, and sucks vs mechanical/undead (well, not really sucks with mass slow, but you get it)

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Postby Mirez » Jun 16 2009, 12:26

lumpoor wrote:Dark is for end-game only, and sucks vs mechanical/undead (well, not really sucks with mass slow, but you get it)

slow and decay are both really usefull when creeping
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby lumpoor » Jun 16 2009, 16:41

Ok, they were estimates, but yeah all of them have small uses in all fields. Destruction has the stuns and freezing and armor reduction.


This isn't to prove a point, just for fun: http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3685/screen.tif

That was all thanks to puppet master and frenzy

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Jun 22 2009, 6:56

lumpoor wrote:Ok, they were estimates, but yeah all of them have small uses in all fields. Destruction has the stuns and freezing and armor reduction.


This isn't to prove a point, just for fun: http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3685/screen.tif

That was all thanks to puppet master and frenzy
With high spellpower, Destruction can also greatly diminish an enemy too... Imagine landing a Circle of Winter on 3-4 stacks + Orlando's no-good ballista with Master of Ice + Cold Death... rather than playing a Puppet Master/Cleansing tug-of-war with him.

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Postby lumpoor » Jun 22 2009, 7:46

It's really rare for me to have the opponent use cleansing.


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