Wishlist For Future Heroes Games: Skill System

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Oct 10 2008, 15:39

Yes, mentoring is way too powerful. It should be removed and replaced with something else.
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Asheera
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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 15:53

Removed or as I said at least change it to give 25 percent of the LEVEL of the hero to the other, NOT experience. Giving level 5 to other heroes when your main is level 20 is not that broken anymore, is it? :D
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 10 2008, 16:46

Well. You need 6 levels in Enlightenment to get Mentoring, and if you play on Heroic you cannot afford that. You COULD afford the primary skill advancement, but the abilities will clutter your picking options and ruin your development. Enlightenment won't win you anything early on.
Which means, you have to wait until later, something like levels 15-20.

Which is exactly the right point to get it to train secondary heroes on bigger maps with more players.

The only thing I'd probably change is what I'd give to the receiving hero. Logic says, that Mentoring should enable a hero to teach WHAT HE KNOWS. So *I* would make Mentoring teach each receiving hero
a) all skill levels minus 1, as many as would fit
b) all abilities minus 1, as many as would fit

I can bring up an example it it's necessary.
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Asheera
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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 16:48

Jolly Joker wrote:Well. You need 6 levels in Enlightenment to get Mentoring, and if you play on Heroic you cannot afford that.
You're talking as if the Enlightenment skill is useless, when it's the most powerful skill in the game actually :P
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 10 2008, 17:05

That's the kind of posts I find annoying, bluntly spoken, because they sound like the original post wasn't really read.
So, I just ask you to read my post again.
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Asheera
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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 17:08

I know but the abilities won't "clutter" your development at all. Do you think Enlightenment is the only skill with some useless perks? Also, taking Mentoring early is not a catastrophe either, it's just ONE skill point used for nothing - Expert Enlightenment and the like is VERY useful even early on.

Ok Scholar is also useless but that's about it.

Do you think +10% damage to your units (two levels at Attack - example) is such a massive improvement on creeping?
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 17:25

Not to mention, you seem to think that Mentoring is an "ok" ability at late game? Please. IIRC a level 27 hero trained another one to level 23!

If that's not overpowered (for one damn ability), I don't know what is.

Worst thing is, you can use these high level heroes trained with Mentoring to make a lot of abuses, like H&R, etc. For example, I know a situation where someone trained a lot of secondaries and gave them Last Stand, Expert Dark Magic, Expert Sorcery and Expert Enlightenment, and 7 stacks of 2 ghosts. Those heroes were sent to attack the enemy with Curse of the Netherworld. This wasn't even Hit and Run anymore, it was pure CARNAGE! :disagree:
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Postby godlyatheist » Oct 10 2008, 18:17

Asheera wrote:For example, I know a situation where someone trained a lot of secondaries and gave them Last Stand, Expert Dark Magic, Expert Sorcery and Expert Enlightenment, and 7 stacks of 2 ghosts. Those heroes were sent to attack the enemy with Curse of the Netherworld. This wasn't even Hit and Run anymore, it was pure CARNAGE! :disagree:


Now that is abuse. I'm gonna try it out.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 10 2008, 18:37

Seriously, I seem to play another game. Level TWENTYSEVEN? In any MP game?
What did they wait for?
Anyway, Im going to make a poll about playing difficulty.

About Enlightenment.
1) Enlightenment won't do ANYTHING to solve any creeping problems you may have with your faction - in the beginning Basis Enlightenment will give you an additional primary skill point.
2) Once you have it you'll get a useless abilities offered as well. NO Enlightenment skill will be of use for creeping. NONE whatsoever.
3) There are heroes that need only Mana Affinity for Mentoring (others will need Scholar as well.

Mana Affinity isn't useless for SOME heroes, admittedly.

However, you cannot afford to waste level rises like this on Heroic, trust me.
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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 18:40

Jolly Joker wrote:Seriously, I seem to play another game. Level TWENTYSEVEN? In any MP game?
The problem is that you play on Heroic, vs the AI and on Ubival Maps instead of ToH ones. :D

Oh and Enlightenment DOES help you on creeping. Sheesh, if I'm offered Enlightenment with Dungeon early I PICK IT - Extra Knowledge/Spellpower and Intelligence are GREAT.

A skill that doesn't help much on creeping is DEFENSE, since you mostly don't want to lose units (and thus you shouldn't get hit at all)
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 19:02

Also, can you name a better skill at creeping than Enlightenment, apart from War Machines (which are known to be IMBA at early game)?

Attack is pathetic, both at creeping and in late game (+5% (only in melee though) = +1 point from Enlightenment (but this works for ranged too) - and you already get 2 at level 8)

Defense is not great as well, because normally you don't want to get hit (also, from level 8 enlightenment has the same effect, but not only in melee, so it's actually better even then!)

Luck may be good, but it is not reliable. Still, +1 Luck (which is +10% damage on average) has the same effect as Basic Enlightenment from level 8 (+2 points)

Leadership - same as Luck.

Logistics - this is not really a combat skill and I don't know how to classify it. It may be useful or not.

Sorcery - worse than Enlightenment IMO (extra SP and Knowledge you get) - not to mention Arcane Training vs Intelligence is a joke.

Magic Schools - these are the only ones VERY important to Magic factions, but still you'll need a secondary skill to take, and that's Enlightenment at best.

And on top of this, Enlightenment provides you more Experience, which actually means that the earlier you take it, the more bonus you get from this extra feature.


I don't know why you think Enlightenment is of no use at creeping, but +10% damage (whenever you see it - be it an ability or skill) has the same effect when you're level 8 with Basic Enlightenment.
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Postby Metathron » Oct 10 2008, 19:07

I think Defense may just be the skill I pick the least (with the possible exception of the Shatter skills). It just seems like a waste of space when compared to other better choices. I will occasionally take it, with the barbarians or dwarves or haven.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 10 2008, 20:35

It just might depend on factions and abilities.
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Postby Asheera » Oct 10 2008, 20:38

Yes I agree, I don't think Enlightenment is very good with Barbarians.

However, all magic factions should get enlightenment, and even some might factions benefit from it (like Sylvan, Fortress (who is actually a hybrid) - don't know about Haven)
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Jolly Joker
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 10 2008, 21:25

Not in the beginning. That would be bad play. Massivly so.

Because the definitely unwanted abilities will clutter your ability picks - what you just don't want to see, for example is Scholar or Arcane Insight on the ability side and Advanced Enightenment and Basic Summoning Magic for Wizard after you just saw that you have Fist of Wrath in the Guild.

You just don't.

Now, I'm not saying that Enlightenment is bad, mind you. I just say, that there is a point for getting Enlightenment. You could say that Enlightenment is something like Reverse War Machines, because you'd just loathe to pick Basic WM when your hero just reached level 17. Enlightenment is just the same, only for the early game. Enlightenment is the best Basic skill for slot 6, no question about that.
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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Oct 11 2008, 0:43

Yes, enlightenment too early is not a good choice. Narxes is a poor starting heroe becuase he starts with enlightenment and fist. As a wizard I will develop one or two (depending on spells in the guild) magic skills and sorcery before getting enlightenment. Arcane intuition would be nice for a wizard if he could learn spells from the djinn.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Kristo » Oct 12 2008, 23:01

What do you think about allowing a hero to have an unlimited number of skills? No skill could be completely worthless and you'd never have a desire to "forget" something. It reduces the level-up choice to a simple matter of "Which would you rather have right now, A or B?" The obvious drawback is that if the game goes on long enough, every hero ends up being the same.
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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Oct 12 2008, 23:42

I don't like it. I like having the strategic choice of what skills to take. And not being able to get every skill adds to replayability.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Asheera
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Postby Asheera » Oct 13 2008, 10:27

Well many times you don't fill all your skill slots anyway :D (unless you're playing a campaign)
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.


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