Best level 6 unit
Eh, I don't see any reason why we should consider the creature "on its own", it's not like you can ever control a creature as such. What unit is "best" should be based on its overall usefulness/effectiveness in a game situation........ and that is always with an accompanying hero and other units from that town.
If a creature meshes well with other creature(s) from its town, or the hero leading it, then that is just a plus point. If it stands alone as a good unit but doesn't work well with that town's playstyle (think treants in a barbarian army or something), then it's not really as good as the first unit.
I think the Paladin is probably best by some margin.
If a creature meshes well with other creature(s) from its town, or the hero leading it, then that is just a plus point. If it stands alone as a good unit but doesn't work well with that town's playstyle (think treants in a barbarian army or something), then it's not really as good as the first unit.
I think the Paladin is probably best by some margin.
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- Pixie
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Why you should separate creature from army or town?
Because after the initial stages you will have multiple towns and heroes, all scattered everywhere, little fights here and there. You end up reinforcing your forces in the nearest town or any dwelling you can find. It's like a real offensive war - you end up hiring locals to fill up your ranks and pick up any local weapons you can find.
In THEORY you always hold a complete army with the same alignment as your hero but in PRACTICE that rarely happens unless you are playing 1v1 in a small map.
Because after the initial stages you will have multiple towns and heroes, all scattered everywhere, little fights here and there. You end up reinforcing your forces in the nearest town or any dwelling you can find. It's like a real offensive war - you end up hiring locals to fill up your ranks and pick up any local weapons you can find.
In THEORY you always hold a complete army with the same alignment as your hero but in PRACTICE that rarely happens unless you are playing 1v1 in a small map.
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- Leprechaun
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 02 Jun 2009
champions don't rock so hard
I do think Ancient treants are the best Tier 6 unit.
Reasons:
-Champions/paladins have way too little Hp.
-Pit Lords aren't good in lategame;however,Pit Spawns aren't that bad,but treants are way better.
-Wraiths are mid-useful,but they can only use Harm Touch(not too useful),and Banshees are ALMOST AS WEAK as the unupgr.version.
-Shadow Matriarchs do way too little damage;Mistresses render Dungeon with only Black/Red dragons to boot.
-Rajas are good,so are Ksathras and Thunder Thanes.
-Paokais/Foul Wyverns are mainly the weakest unit of tier 6.
But Ancient treants have big def/HP/can take roots/can entangle.And with a high Attack+the lethal 325% Ranger combo+righteous might+divine strength means they are also highly-damaging.
Reasons:
-Champions/paladins have way too little Hp.
-Pit Lords aren't good in lategame;however,Pit Spawns aren't that bad,but treants are way better.
-Wraiths are mid-useful,but they can only use Harm Touch(not too useful),and Banshees are ALMOST AS WEAK as the unupgr.version.
-Shadow Matriarchs do way too little damage;Mistresses render Dungeon with only Black/Red dragons to boot.
-Rajas are good,so are Ksathras and Thunder Thanes.
-Paokais/Foul Wyverns are mainly the weakest unit of tier 6.
But Ancient treants have big def/HP/can take roots/can entangle.And with a high Attack+the lethal 325% Ranger combo+righteous might+divine strength means they are also highly-damaging.
- blizzardboy
- Pixie
- Posts: 103
- Joined: 25 Apr 2008
In that case pretty much every Stronghold unit is the "best" unit, because their 85% might hero + rage soups them up to extremes. The only way other factions typically beat them is through the advantage of magic.Phate wrote:Eh, I don't see any reason why we should consider the creature "on its own", it's not like you can ever control a creature as such. What unit is "best" should be based on its overall usefulness/effectiveness in a game situation........ and that is always with an accompanying hero and other units from that town.
If a creature meshes well with other creature(s) from its town, or the hero leading it, then that is just a plus point. If it stands alone as a good unit but doesn't work well with that town's playstyle (think treants in a barbarian army or something), then it's not really as good as the first unit.
I think the Paladin is probably best by some margin.
But if you look at the individual stats, champions really aren't that amazing of a unit. I wouldn't even put them at #2 since I think Thanes are the next runner up. For Haven, I think Griffins are much better respective to tier. . Their attack + jousting makes for an awesome initial charge, but jousting can then be nullified by surrounding them, and their HP is pretty lousy. When it comes down to it, they just seem great because the initial charge gets people excited and if you've trained extras they seem amazing when really it's just quantity.
That looks more like your opponent spending all his resources to counter the Champions, precisely because they are such great threats that you need to contain them ASAP ...blizzardboy wrote:But if you look at the individual stats, champions really aren't that amazing of a unit. I wouldn't even put them at #2 since I think Thanes are the next runner up. For Haven, I think Griffins are much better respective to tier. . Their attack + jousting makes for an awesome initial charge, but jousting can then be nullified by surrounding them, and their HP is pretty lousy. When it comes down to it, they just seem great because the initial charge gets people excited and if you've trained extras they seem amazing when really it's just quantity.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
I actually chose Wraiths because they give some much needed melee damage potential to Necro. I personally think Vampires are overated, so Wraiths, in my opinion, are the best melee unit that Necro has.
Are they as strong as Paladins? No. But factor in Necro's higher numbers thanks to raise dead, dark energy etc. and I'd put Wraiths at the top of their tier.
Are they as strong as Paladins? No. But factor in Necro's higher numbers thanks to raise dead, dark energy etc. and I'd put Wraiths at the top of their tier.
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- Leprechaun
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Champions 1st,huge damage and dragon-like charge.Thanes are 2nd,a very powerful unit in an otherwise weak offensive army.Treants are close 3rd as they have amazing cover-up and staying power,but it is seldom needed (atleast vs AI).Pit Spawns are there too,just that Aura of Swiftness+Tactics is obv helpful.Obv Stronghold has weakest tier 6(Cyclops compensate tho),along with the Pit Lords when out of early game(which won't have more than 5 of them anyways);the others,like rakshasa,witches @co aren't wothy to mention.
In my book Champion>>>Thane>=Paladin>=Ancient Treant>>>>>>Pit Spawns only>Rakshasa (Kshatra>Raja imo)>>Raging Treants=Wraiths>Witches>>PL>>>>>>>>>>Wyverns.
In my book Champion>>>Thane>=Paladin>=Ancient Treant>>>>>>Pit Spawns only>Rakshasa (Kshatra>Raja imo)>>Raging Treants=Wraiths>Witches>>PL>>>>>>>>>>Wyverns.
I've been away from the game for some time now, so I have to wonder if my memory's a bit rusty, but...
I can't recall ever not considering paladins (and later, champions) a superior unit to most tier 7's, and considering most other tier 6's rather... meh. Cleanse is a great support tool to have on a unit that's otherwise your highest damage-dealing stack (between jousting and knight training), and if your opponent doesn't have dark magic, you can drop that to share that tough love with more enemies at a time. I can honestly say, whenever my champion's turn comes around, a little victory theme starts playing in my head, since that's when I know heads are gonna roll.
I guess I'd rank thanes second, and treants third. The rest of the tier 6 units all seem kinda "meh", but those three all stand well on their own, and fit great into their respective armies.
It's a bit ridiculous to gauge a unit on its own, and not as part of the whole army. If we're just comparing, say, a weekly growth of one creature to another as though recruited from a military post, Pit Lords probably come out on top simply because their strengths aren't subject to linear scaling... but I don't think most would agree they're spectacular in normal play.
As an aside, I feel like people undersell the Paokai, just a bit. Of course, that could just be because my friend used to always play Undead in long games, and it's rather satisfying eating a dead stack before it can be raised.
I can't recall ever not considering paladins (and later, champions) a superior unit to most tier 7's, and considering most other tier 6's rather... meh. Cleanse is a great support tool to have on a unit that's otherwise your highest damage-dealing stack (between jousting and knight training), and if your opponent doesn't have dark magic, you can drop that to share that tough love with more enemies at a time. I can honestly say, whenever my champion's turn comes around, a little victory theme starts playing in my head, since that's when I know heads are gonna roll.
I guess I'd rank thanes second, and treants third. The rest of the tier 6 units all seem kinda "meh", but those three all stand well on their own, and fit great into their respective armies.
It's a bit ridiculous to gauge a unit on its own, and not as part of the whole army. If we're just comparing, say, a weekly growth of one creature to another as though recruited from a military post, Pit Lords probably come out on top simply because their strengths aren't subject to linear scaling... but I don't think most would agree they're spectacular in normal play.
As an aside, I feel like people undersell the Paokai, just a bit. Of course, that could just be because my friend used to always play Undead in long games, and it's rather satisfying eating a dead stack before it can be raised.
- Bandobras Took
- Genie
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
I did actually choose the Pit Variants. I recognize Champions are great, but the upgrades are a choice between doing melee damage and doing melee damage. Between being able to gate and the caster/high level killer vs. the tank/low level killer dichotomy, the Inferno has a bit more flexibility in adapting to map/opponent conditions.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.
- ShadowLiberal
- Golem
- Posts: 641
- Joined: 27 Mar 2010
- Location: Shadow Land
I have to go with the Paladin / Champion. They're fast enough to get an attack in with their very first turn, have 100 HP, and a strong attack. Plus Champions can hurt multiple stacks at once.
Pit Lords/Spawn have too low speed/initiative to help, though I will admit Pit Lords are awesome at killing summoned Phoenixes/avatars.
Wraith/Banshees are like a nerfed version of the Paladin/Champion in a lot of ways.
Treants make an awesome defensive wall, but suffer from low initiative, which makes it easy for them to take lots of beatings without being able to counter attack, especially when Treants are you only army unit.
Shadow Matriarch / Shadow Mistress don't have good enough spells to justify using them most of the time (unless you have one or two of them, I mean come on, Tier 6 units should be causing lots of damage, not casting a spell like slow or confuse on one unit). Their damage output isn't that good either.
Rakshasa Raja / Rakshasa Kshatra have decent damage, and Raja has no retaliation, but their lack of speed to hit in their first attack, and lower initiative make them less useful.
Flame Lord / Thunder Thane annoy me because their expected damage is always inaccurate, it never counts the additional fire/thunder damage they do to multiple units. Also I find other Tier 6 units do more damage in their attacks. They can fly/teleport however, which is a big plus.
Foul Wyvern / Paokai are ok, but there's stronger units. At least they can fly however.
Pit Lords/Spawn have too low speed/initiative to help, though I will admit Pit Lords are awesome at killing summoned Phoenixes/avatars.
Wraith/Banshees are like a nerfed version of the Paladin/Champion in a lot of ways.
Treants make an awesome defensive wall, but suffer from low initiative, which makes it easy for them to take lots of beatings without being able to counter attack, especially when Treants are you only army unit.
Shadow Matriarch / Shadow Mistress don't have good enough spells to justify using them most of the time (unless you have one or two of them, I mean come on, Tier 6 units should be causing lots of damage, not casting a spell like slow or confuse on one unit). Their damage output isn't that good either.
Rakshasa Raja / Rakshasa Kshatra have decent damage, and Raja has no retaliation, but their lack of speed to hit in their first attack, and lower initiative make them less useful.
Flame Lord / Thunder Thane annoy me because their expected damage is always inaccurate, it never counts the additional fire/thunder damage they do to multiple units. Also I find other Tier 6 units do more damage in their attacks. They can fly/teleport however, which is a big plus.
Foul Wyvern / Paokai are ok, but there's stronger units. At least they can fly however.
Pit lords/spawns really rule. The only guys that match them imo, are the paladins.
Paladins, despite their extremely high damage output, can be countered easily by suicide blocking and if lucky, by terrain bricks. They can even be badly hurt by a higher initiative unit. Without charging, they can't do a shit aside from removing some debuffes and healing high tier units saved by last stand or idk.
Pit lords/spawns, on the other hand, seem to be rather underestimated - and that's why, they dont get focused that much. In a tactics phase, people place them in rather blocked places cuz their initiative is low, so when their turn comes, tiles next to them will be freed already and they wont be blocked. Even if blocked, they can gate. Why Am I saying this? Because despite their not so awesome tanking ability, they cant be beaten down as fast as paladins but can cause a real chaos among the enemy ranks. And above else, there are other units in Inferno faction that REALLY need to be focused and killed quickly, like Seducers and etc. I said this cuz I think separating a unit from its faction is not that right. C'mon, demon units can't gate without their hero... orcish units cannot rage without their hero... that means that u nullify one of their abilities by considering them apart from a faction.
The reasons I stated above may look not satisfying to accept my point, so let me just say. I love pit lords/pit spawns despite ur hatred
Rakshasas: damn awesome. if they manage to dash and still do some hits, they can prove really deadly. That's why they should be focused early, but seriously, a tier 6 unit with no retalation? or sometimes even worse, aoe damage? because of this enemies are forced to either kill it or to scatter accross the battlefield that may not be beneficial all the time. They ARE strong but, because of the fact that they cause a lot of damage, they may be focused even before titans (other academy units aren't that much of a priority) and that's why they won't do any good.
Thanes: They can be used effectively to focus enemy aggression on themselves while other slow units charge, but seriously, they do not cause that much damage and they just remind me gargoyles of academy. Low damage, but high tanking abilities (that is nothing new for Dwarven faction) and high speed/initiative.
Treants: I saw posts saying that they are awesome tanks and give their friendly elves time to do some shit while treants keep themselves alive. While theoretically this seems right, I have always found battles with elves rather fast. If they win, that's mainly because of the quick battle where treants haven't done too much. If the battle prolongs they can't do a shit. I repeat, theoretically, this should be opposite as they are quite a luck based faction and the more they hit, the more chances are that luck or a critical hit will proc (or maybe both). Those treants do not fit these dudes at all, and while their stats seem great, they are "out of faction".
Wraiths/Banshee-s: some people may argue but wraiths seem pretty cool to me in rather early stages of the game, where that harm touch is gamebreaking. Other than that, they are above average undead units considering their stats, especially damage, but nothing really to brag about. (ok, I like that ability of banshee's coupled with the ultimate perk of necromancers and death stare of spectral dragons, I like it cuz it does some nice damage with no retaliation, but still, these units aren't creatures to be amazed of)
Matriarchs: just like their elven bretheren, dark elves seem to destroy almost anything quickly, rather than weaken them. buffs and debuffs are good but they are really worthy in long battles and not in the battles where a dark elf hero kills every stack with an implosion spell. These spells are the only good these girls have aside from their appearance, cuz their stats seems horrible compared to oter tier 6s. Also, I hate when their whip strike casts frenzy.
Wyverns: the worst tier 6 units. They dont have raging blood ability and their stats are nothing to brag about. Flyer tier 6-s ZOMG THEY CAN GET ANYWHERE. yeah. get everywhere and be beaten to death.
Paladins, despite their extremely high damage output, can be countered easily by suicide blocking and if lucky, by terrain bricks. They can even be badly hurt by a higher initiative unit. Without charging, they can't do a shit aside from removing some debuffes and healing high tier units saved by last stand or idk.
Pit lords/spawns, on the other hand, seem to be rather underestimated - and that's why, they dont get focused that much. In a tactics phase, people place them in rather blocked places cuz their initiative is low, so when their turn comes, tiles next to them will be freed already and they wont be blocked. Even if blocked, they can gate. Why Am I saying this? Because despite their not so awesome tanking ability, they cant be beaten down as fast as paladins but can cause a real chaos among the enemy ranks. And above else, there are other units in Inferno faction that REALLY need to be focused and killed quickly, like Seducers and etc. I said this cuz I think separating a unit from its faction is not that right. C'mon, demon units can't gate without their hero... orcish units cannot rage without their hero... that means that u nullify one of their abilities by considering them apart from a faction.
The reasons I stated above may look not satisfying to accept my point, so let me just say. I love pit lords/pit spawns despite ur hatred
Rakshasas: damn awesome. if they manage to dash and still do some hits, they can prove really deadly. That's why they should be focused early, but seriously, a tier 6 unit with no retalation? or sometimes even worse, aoe damage? because of this enemies are forced to either kill it or to scatter accross the battlefield that may not be beneficial all the time. They ARE strong but, because of the fact that they cause a lot of damage, they may be focused even before titans (other academy units aren't that much of a priority) and that's why they won't do any good.
Thanes: They can be used effectively to focus enemy aggression on themselves while other slow units charge, but seriously, they do not cause that much damage and they just remind me gargoyles of academy. Low damage, but high tanking abilities (that is nothing new for Dwarven faction) and high speed/initiative.
Treants: I saw posts saying that they are awesome tanks and give their friendly elves time to do some shit while treants keep themselves alive. While theoretically this seems right, I have always found battles with elves rather fast. If they win, that's mainly because of the quick battle where treants haven't done too much. If the battle prolongs they can't do a shit. I repeat, theoretically, this should be opposite as they are quite a luck based faction and the more they hit, the more chances are that luck or a critical hit will proc (or maybe both). Those treants do not fit these dudes at all, and while their stats seem great, they are "out of faction".
Wraiths/Banshee-s: some people may argue but wraiths seem pretty cool to me in rather early stages of the game, where that harm touch is gamebreaking. Other than that, they are above average undead units considering their stats, especially damage, but nothing really to brag about. (ok, I like that ability of banshee's coupled with the ultimate perk of necromancers and death stare of spectral dragons, I like it cuz it does some nice damage with no retaliation, but still, these units aren't creatures to be amazed of)
Matriarchs: just like their elven bretheren, dark elves seem to destroy almost anything quickly, rather than weaken them. buffs and debuffs are good but they are really worthy in long battles and not in the battles where a dark elf hero kills every stack with an implosion spell. These spells are the only good these girls have aside from their appearance, cuz their stats seems horrible compared to oter tier 6s. Also, I hate when their whip strike casts frenzy.
Wyverns: the worst tier 6 units. They dont have raging blood ability and their stats are nothing to brag about. Flyer tier 6-s ZOMG THEY CAN GET ANYWHERE. yeah. get everywhere and be beaten to death.
just one minor observation
I'm surprised to find that everyone hates Wyverns.
All units have their uses. Wyverns and their upgrades can regenerate health and even gain lots of health by eating corpses, so in some situations they can save the day. I've won prolonged battles because my enemy underestimated the wyverns and they regained all their health. I have also driven enemy Demonists and Necromancers mad by eating corpses.
That lightning attack deals decent damage; enough to force enemies to scatter.
Has anyone ever played a few wyverns and a flaming ballista vs a huge enemy army? Against the computer, wyverns are great for creeping and leveling up your hero.
I'm not implying Wyverns are the best, or even an above average, creature. They are definitely below average. But to say they are useless or should never be fielded in battle is going too far.
There is a Wyvern specialist (Tarek I think) who will also enhance your use of wyverns a lot.
All units have their uses. Wyverns and their upgrades can regenerate health and even gain lots of health by eating corpses, so in some situations they can save the day. I've won prolonged battles because my enemy underestimated the wyverns and they regained all their health. I have also driven enemy Demonists and Necromancers mad by eating corpses.
That lightning attack deals decent damage; enough to force enemies to scatter.
Has anyone ever played a few wyverns and a flaming ballista vs a huge enemy army? Against the computer, wyverns are great for creeping and leveling up your hero.
I'm not implying Wyverns are the best, or even an above average, creature. They are definitely below average. But to say they are useless or should never be fielded in battle is going too far.
There is a Wyvern specialist (Tarek I think) who will also enhance your use of wyverns a lot.
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- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: 05 Jul 2006
I know this is old, but I couldn't resist.
I voted for Pit Lord because he is always the last standing hero of my Inferno battles and I don't think Inferno can stand up too well against others without this guy's support in the line-up. Its initiative is painful, but I can't forget how a relatively few slaughtered 900 shieldbearers/skeletons with ease or took out a godly summoned phoenix in one shot.
Rajas are a very close runner up.
I voted for Pit Lord because he is always the last standing hero of my Inferno battles and I don't think Inferno can stand up too well against others without this guy's support in the line-up. Its initiative is painful, but I can't forget how a relatively few slaughtered 900 shieldbearers/skeletons with ease or took out a godly summoned phoenix in one shot.
Rajas are a very close runner up.
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