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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
Kilza
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Unread postby Kilza » 23 Aug 2008, 18:37

Hi guys. HOMMV was my first might and magic game. Before it I played Civ 3/4 SM's Alpha Centauri which are somewhat similar imo. I'm posting some ideas hoping that devs may consider them when making HOMMVI, which I'm looking forward to.

In my opinion HOMMV is a good game with a fun setting, but there are a few problems that prevent it from being great. Some of the good things were:
Campaigns: I really enjoyed them for the most part. The ones that you had to build up for weren't as fun, but were pretty rare
Graphics: graphics don't matter that much to me, but I enjoyed the style of each race's base, from the pristine haven to the firey inferno.
Diversity: 6 races/14 units/tons of heroes/tons of skills/magic/warmachines/etc.

Those were a few of the things I really enjoyed. However, there were some very significant problems that either made games frustrating of wasted a lot of time.
Animations: Some animations are way too long. This is actually why I don't like playing Academy even though they have fun heroes. It's just too frustrating watching archmages twirl their staff/titans waddle toward their target.
Creeping Balance: I only play on Heroic, everything else is way too easy for me. On heroic, however, things like lots of sprites/masterhunters/druids guarding key building is just WAY TOO HARSH of a random punishment when someone else could get conscripts/squires/griffins. I cry every time I see druids guarding my sulfur mine as inferno. There's just nothing you can do to not lose masses of troops (unless you're a lucky deleb).
Hero Balance: I know some heroes are meant for early game and some for late, but heroes like Deleb/Ossir/Vittorio/Nur can easily be two to three levels ahead of someone by the end of week 2 and have lost nothing to creeps with luck. Who in their right mind would choose Zombie Lord or Magic Mirror bonus over that?
Race Balance: I know this is controversial, but I feel that without luck inferno and sylvan are underpowered. Why? Because inferno can't take any strong casters/range on until after they get infernos and sylvan needs master hunters and there's no guarantee that you will be able to get the sulfur/crystal you need.
Spell Balance: This is why I never ever choose summoning magic. Firetrap/phantomforces/firewall/phoenix are all good spells, but raise dead/earthquake/elementals/armor are just junk in comparison, and there's no guarantee you'll get a good spell. It's also annoying having to wait so long to choose Master of _ spells because mage guild is hardly a priority for most factions.

I'm sure I missed a lot of issues, but overall I think you get the impression. HOMMV is too much about luck. Everything from the attack bar to the weeks to the spells to the neuts to the..... You can start an Inferno vs Inferno game with Deleb as one person's hero and Grawl as the other person's hero and in two weeks the game is already over. Sure, you can do things to try to combat bad luck, and not all luck is bad, but there are just too many bad things you CAN'T do anything about. Playing sylvan trying to kill druids with master hunter? Who gets to go first? Druids? OUCH! Ever played the hound master and didn't get tactics offered for three weeks?

I'm not saying that HOMMV isn't a good game. It's fun and involves a lot of thought. But these obvious problems keep it from being a great game. I hope some of them are addressed in HOMMVI.

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Unread postby Metathron » 23 Aug 2008, 18:45

Have you tried the standalone expansion Tribes of the East?

To me, HoMM V and its first expansion are just okay/quite good, but TotE makes the game great IMHO. It doesn't necessarily do away with most of the things you consider problems, though.
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Unread postby Kilza » 23 Aug 2008, 18:52

No, just basic HOMMV. I've been thinking about getting it but haven't been to a store in a while.

Edit: sorry about the double post. The first one said there was a board error so I assumed it didn't go through.

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Unread postby Banedon » 23 Aug 2008, 23:52

Creeping balance - this is a problem, and the random nature of these things can have huge influence on gameflow. That said, it's always been part of Heroes games and you have to deal with it as best as you can ...

Hero balance - this has also been the case with Heroes games (see Heroes III polls on favourite [insert hero]). So long as each race has good heroes of their own I don't think it's too big of a problem.

Race balance - here is where I disagree with you. Pre-TotE Inferno is a simple matter of picking Deleb; then they can even clear Druids with comparatively little pain (just sacrifice some Horned Demons). Sylvan I'd say is the weakest, but not because of Sulphur or Crystal - it's the huge Wood costs to get Master Hunters.

Spell balance - partly agreed, but recently I've been delaying spell choices as much as possible pending the spells in my Mage Guild. With some races you can safely pick which schools you'll go for (eg. Warlock -> Destructive, Haven -> Light) but with the others I wait, like waiting for the level 3/4/5 mage guilds before learning Master of Ice / Storm / Fire. My last game with Dungeon too I prioritized the Mage Guild, because I didn't need the creatures and just let them stockpile.

As for luck in general, see this topic:

viewtopic.php?t=9033&start=0
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Unread postby jwallstone » 24 Aug 2008, 15:24

I'm relatively new, but my experience has been that Sylvan are powerful creepers. I've never had trouble buying the building and upgrade for arcane archers, since I prioritize that over other dwellings.

I haven't had much trouble creeping low tiers the first week without losses, then by the second week I can take on tier 7 stacks without losses already using plenty of single sprite stacks.

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Unread postby Kilza » 24 Aug 2008, 18:15

Are you playing on heroic? And could you do this with the blade master hero? I mean sure, Ossir may be able to do that assuming you don't face any sprites/spectres/druids the first two weeks while clearing mines and you are facing devils or bone dragons, but what if it's emerald/black dragons and the "few" that show up happen to be 4? It's all about luck once again.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 24 Aug 2008, 19:02

Kilza wrote:Are you playing on heroic? And could you do this with the blade master hero? I mean sure, Ossir may be able to do that assuming you don't face any sprites/spectres/druids the first two weeks while clearing mines and you are facing devils or bone dragons, but what if it's emerald/black dragons and the "few" that show up happen to be 4? It's all about luck once again.
Not all heroes are created equally unfortunately. Every faction has maybe 2 heroes that are actually used as a starting heroe if you chose a heroe rather than selecting random heroe. That is a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless.

Not all factions are created equal. Some factions are at a big disadvantage as you increase difficualty level. If you play academy on heroic unless you are playing on a rich map you can forget artifacts for most of the game.

And the Djiin family just plain sucks.

Not all magic schoos are created equal. Dark magic ia the strongest, Summoning the weakest.

But the game is still a good game. I only play on heroic. I don't really have problems with the Preserve. If you have TOE, arcane archers are verrry imbalanced. build the upgrade for you hunter dwelling as soon as possible.

Yeah, the bladmaster heroe will have a tougher time than Ossir but you'll get used to playing different strategies if you play random heroes.

Use the skill wheel to help you plan your skills. Use a secondary heroe as a squire to flag mines and pick up loose resources to save your main heroe some movement points.
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby John.Galt » 24 Aug 2008, 19:58

Sigh... every time you all beat up on Sylvan, I bust out the same old argument as to how you can easily cast 6x (insert name of spell here) per round.

Your hero pick should be Wynngal - that way your archers always shoot first, and you can pretty much kill anything without taking casualties - Shooters too frequently. You don't even need Arcane Archers to creep well.

If you're lucky enough/rigging the map/restarting until you get the randomization you want, (Don't mock me, you know you do it ;-) ) get yourself Ossir too, and the bonus to Hunters will pwn anything.

Get a ballista ASAP for creeping, as well as War Machines - It's unlikely on the skill wheel, but if you've got a memory mentor/witch hut/many other things, you can get it pretty easy. I get it pretty much every game.

War Machines ---> ballista ---> imbue/triple ballista
Destructive Magic ---> Master of storms/Ice ---> Cold Death
Attack - Tactics (Cause of Wyngall) Archery, and Flaming Arrows
Logistics Scouting ---> Swift Mind (So your hero goes first)

Once you get druid upgrade, you can easily pump your spellpower to 30-40, imbue chain lighting, and which some skill in picking favored enemies, rain down 6k aoe damage on their entire army and kill 4-5 stacks in one shot. Then your ballista cleans up the rest with three more casts of chain lighting. And IF they happen to still be alive, the stun from Master of Storms has knocked them so far back on the ATB chart that your Archers/Hero/Ballista/Druids can easily go twice before they even get to retreat.

Even before you get the uber rigged imbue arrow, you can still creep very easily with just a ballista/hunters/druids if you're rich enough.

Long story short - If you're playing on a big enough map, and you can make it to late game, Sylvan will destroy anything. I've beaten armies that were "Challenging" without losing a single troop using this strategy.
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Lord Lakely
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Unread postby Lord Lakely » 24 Aug 2008, 20:16

Summoning the weakest.
I have to contradict that. Summoning is a very powerfull school, but has less (as in "amount") powerfull spell than the other schools have. Unlike Dark or Light, Every level has a powerfull Spell and a Very weak Spell.

Summoning sucks if you get Fists, Wasp Swarm, EarthQuake, Summon Elementals and Arcane Armour.

but it an be very powerfull as well.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y9ycsycshui


The Above Link is a fight between me a Borsuc in Duel Mod ,and in the End Summoning (me as Galib) defeated Dark (Borsuc as Marbas)

(though it was very narrow)

The thing that's REALLY annoying in Pre-TotE is the lack of Variation of the game. Limited tactical potions in both Creatures, Skills and Spells. I'd really implore you to buy TotE.

In TotE the most annyoing thing by far is the lack of Balance: Divine Vengeance is sumply overpowered, Arcane Archers ditto, Druid Elders almost useless, Stalkers are the best choice overall. Some Heroes (especially campaign heroes) are overwhelmingly Strong, Wyngaal being the best Example. some thing really need nerfing, like the points I mentionned above, as well a needed nerfing of Anwen, Sinitar, and Nymus, who are by far the best Heroes in Duel mode and a decreasement fothe cost of the Cloud Coloseum, which is, nuff' said, ridiculously high, as it give you a mediocre creature.
Last edited by Lord Lakely on 24 Aug 2008, 20:22, edited 1 time in total.

jwallstone
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Unread postby jwallstone » 24 Aug 2008, 20:17

John Galt beat me to it! That's pretty much exactly my approach to sylvan. Wyngaal is my favorite, and his hero build is almost identical to mine. I also like to throw in Leadership with Empathy if I get the chance. (single sprite stacks with high morale speed up the hero quite a bit.)

In response to other comments, I have been playing on hard, not heroic, which probably makes a difference, but is not the main point. The point is a comparison BETWEEN factions, and in comparison Sylvan handles creeping very well in my experience. You will always have trouble facing druids, etc, with any faction, but my sylvan early game seems to do better against them than with other factions. And I am able to take on significant stacks of black/emerald dragons by week two, meaning in the Several range, with judicious use of blocking stacks of single sprites and (when possible) an imbued ballista. By weeks three and up, even Packs of level 7's are doable.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 24 Aug 2008, 21:29

Lord Lakely wrote:
Summoning the weakest.
I have to contradict that. Summoning is a very powerfull school, but has less (as in "amount") powerfull spell than the other schools have. Unlike Dark or Light, Every level has a powerfull Spell and a Very weak Spell.

Summoning sucks if you get Fists, Wasp Swarm, EarthQuake, Summon Elementals and Arcane Armour.

but it an be very powerfull as well.
So what school do you think is the weakest magic school?

You are more likely to end up with a sucky combination than with any other school if you are pure summoning. Summoning spells are very situationally useful. Summon Elementals is the worst level 4 spell in the game and got nerfed again with the latest patch (water elementals do less damage.) Summon Hive is really not much better. It can be situationally useful but is so easily destroyed and you can't select what stack the swarm attacks. It needs a lot more hit points. Phoenix is nice if you get it early but in late game it is destroyed with a single attack. Arcane Armor took a nerf with the patch to fix a bug that cause it to absorb more damage than intended.

The lack of mass spells is one of the problems of summoning magic. Fire Trap is great if you get it rather than fist and is sort of a mass spell when you get it to expert. I have grown to like Arcane Crystal more than I thought I would when TOE first came out. In certain situaltions the AI will attack it so you don't have to waste a turn detonating it. Blade Barrier can be nice but is pretty easily destroyed. I would like it to be a bit tougher. Raise Dead is great for a necromancer but situationally useful otherwise except for a final battle. Earthquake should be changed to be useful outside of seiges.

Dark and Light both have mass spells. Not only do mass spells affect multiple creatures but they cast faster than nomral spells. Might heroes can easily cast faster than magic heroes by using only mass spells. If they have empathy so much the better. The Destruction spells are all useful. You can develop destruction as a warlock without knowing what spells are in your guild and know that you will be ok.
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby Kilza » 24 Aug 2008, 22:15

Thank you for the responses everyone. I know balance is a controversial topic and it's good to see that I'm not completely off base.

John.Galt that's certainly a powerful late game strategy, but the chances of getting those skills in vanilla HOMMV were astronomically low. I guess Tote solved this issue with memory mentors and the alt druid upgrade. More hero strategies is a step in the right direction.

Jwallstone I'm glad sylvan works for you. I'm just trying to explain what I've experienced on heroic. Either way Inferno was even worse off on heroic, where their only chance was picking Deleb (who was just too strong) or Grok and hoping to get teleport assault quick enough to block shooters/kill casters.

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Unread postby Banedon » 24 Aug 2008, 23:00

Not all factions are created equal. Some factions are at a big disadvantage as you increase difficualty level. If you play academy on heroic unless you are playing on a rich map you can forget artifacts for most of the game.
That's what you're supposed to do. Until you need the Artifacts there's no point getting it; you might as well invest resources into getting Castle / Capitol / Titans / Mage Guild 5. In the same vein, Sylvan is not going to use Avenger until late into the game.

I have no problems with Academy on Heroic.
But the game is still a good game. I only play on heroic. I don't really have problems with the Preserve. If you have TOE, arcane archers are verrry imbalanced. build the upgrade for you hunter dwelling as soon as possible.
How are you going to get the Wood to build the Hunter dwelling in the first place? And besides, even if you do get Master Hunters you still cannot take on ranged creatures for fear they move first.
Get a ballista ASAP for creeping, as well as War Machines - It's unlikely on the skill wheel, but if you've got a memory mentor/witch hut/many other things, you can get it pretty easy. I get it pretty much every game.
Extremely unlikely I say. Gold is a first problem - a Ballista is fairly expensive, using the Memory Mentor as well. Learning War Machines is the other. Memory Mentors are expensive, Witch Huts need not teach you War Machines. You can get it on a level 30 hero, sure, but it's unlikely you get it by level 10 say.
So what school do you think is the weakest magic school?
All the magic schools have their uses. For all of Dark and Light Magic's much-vaunted Mass Spells, if you get attacked in the second week you are going to lose to someone with no magic but Triple Ballista. Or Meteor Shower, or Conjure Phoenix, etc.

My personal experience tie in with Kilza's. Sylvan is pretty bad unless you a) start off pretty developed already or b) are playing on a lower difficulty setting. I've no idea how to play Inferno after the Deleb nerf. I don't play Fortress and Academy by preference (too defensive and I'm an offensive player - but I've lost fair games to them both, so they're fine). Other races are all OK as well.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 25 Aug 2008, 02:53

Banedon wrote:
That's what you're supposed to do. Until you need the Artifacts there's no point getting it; you might as well invest resources into getting Castle / Capitol / Titans / Mage Guild 5. In the same vein, Sylvan is not going to use Avenger until late into the game.
Well, yeah, obviously you have to build your creature dwellings and mage guild first. But significant artifacts will come a good deal afterwards as they require quite a few resources. And you have to run to an Academy town to make them.

And if there are multiple towns on the map that you need to build up you will not be building artifacts at all. It would have been much better if the Academy's racial skill did not depend on tons of resources.
Banedon wrote:
But the game is still a good game. I only play on heroic. I don't really have problems with the Preserve. If you have TOE, arcane archers are verrry imbalanced. build the upgrade for you hunter dwelling as soon as possible.
How are you going to get the Wood to build the Hunter dwelling in the first place? And besides, even if you do get Master Hunters you still cannot take on ranged creatures for fear they move first.
The Sylvan certainly is no more strapped for wood than the academy is for ore. The academy must build its mage guild to level 5 quickly and and the dwellings need tons of ore.

The Ranger is much less dependant on magic. Unupgraded hunters are not bad until you can upgrade. And the druids will be very helpful. I don't have much trouble building the hunter upgrade ordinarily.

As for early shooters you'll have to leave the hunters out of the fight and use your melee troops. Split the pixies. Yeah, you'll suffer some loses. Having imbue arrow will help.

How often is your opponent going to get to you in week 2 with Summon Phoenix? That would be a pretty rich map.
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby jwallstone » 25 Aug 2008, 03:29

Just tried playing some heroic games, and getting master hunters arcane archers was no problem. Just picking up a piece or two of wood somewhere plus an early sawmill was enough to get the upgraded building within the first few days. Obviously, you have to prioritize that above other creatures, but I hardly need to buy anything but archers/druids for several weeks if only creeping is involved.

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Re: User Opinions

Unread postby Ronduwil » 07 Sep 2008, 05:51

Kilza wrote: Animations: Some animations are way too long. This is actually why I don't like playing Academy even though they have fun heroes. It's just too frustrating watching archmages twirl their staff/titans waddle toward their target.
Have you tried speeding up the animations via the "Game Options" menu? I was really frustrated with the academy animations too until I did that. On reflection I don't know if that option was available in the original because I didn't discover it until I was well into HoF. Still, if you have the option you might want to give it a try.


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