Best level 4 unit

[Jolly Joker]

Let's say 50 VLs fight 40 Raiders.
There is no way to avoid the fact that the initial attack will be made by the raiders and there is no way to avoid the fact that this first attack will make maximum use of the raiders's special. The raiders will do an average of 420 damage, modified by +10 attack to 630, killing 18 VLs. The VLs retaliate for 288 damage (32*9), reviving 144 Hps or 4 VLs. That leaves 36 VLs for the attack for 324 damage, reviving 162 HPs.

So after the first battle round that leaves: 41 VLs (the last of which having only 26 HPs). The damage done by them is 612 damage, kiling 10 Raiders, leaving only 30, the last of which has only 48 HPs left.

Percentage loss for the VLs under worst circumstances: less than 20. Percentage loss for the Raiders: 25.

For the Imperial Griffins it's difficult to compute because of different initiative, but their normal average damage is less than that of the raiders since it won't be modified. The Griffins will do a simple 500 damage on average, but lose many more due to their lower HPs.

[Asheera]

1v1 fights are silly.

I mean, the Grim Raider's ability increases as it attacks creatures with higher defense: that means, the Grim Raider becomes more powerful as it encounters level 7 creatures and a high level (with high defense) hero.

[danhvo]

Mummies are undead and you can't drain life from them

LOL. Did you think life-drain could have helped here? One whack from one of the mummy stacks and probably 200 VLs would have been wiped out, let alone a mere 50.

Fortunately, mummies have very low speed. My necromancer did own two pieces of the Necro set, reducing their speed to 3, which allowed the VLs to jump around the battlefield to avoid them.

[Asheera]

Fortunately, mummies have very low speed. My necromancer did own two pieces of the Necro set, reducing their speed to 3, which allowed the VLs to jump around the battlefield to avoid them.

LOL and that makes the Vampires "great" creatures?

[Wolfsburg]

Test results:

Situation: All of the tests took place in weeks where no special variation was given to morale, luck, defense, or damage. The combat happened on grass. Human hero was Rutger, lvl1 which has no combat improving abilities or skills. Necro hero was Zoltan, lvl1, which has no combat improving specials as well.

Week One: 5 Imperial Griffins against 5 Vampire Lords.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/pu1c7a

Week Two: 15 Imperial Griffins against 15 VLs
http://www.sendspace.com/file/uzyhi7

Week Three: 25 IGs against 25 VLs
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f67dwj

In order to prevent any discussion on that matter, I always allowed IGs to take the first hit. I allowed any spontaneous high morale effects to take place, and I didn't interfere with the heroes in any moment of the game.

After repeating the tests the results pointed repeatedly to the victory of the VLs. Save one condition. If the IGs managed to land their Battle Dive.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/liklpc

This special ability allows the griffin to do extra damage to a unit occupying a determined square of the battlefield. So that basically means, the controling player has to GUESS in what square the VLs will be at the moment of the dive. That means in worst case the VLs have 30 squares to move into (supposing they are located on the far end of the field and that all adjacent squares are taken by 2x2 units. In best case the vamps will have up to 65 squares to chose from, in case there are no units around and he is located on the second row, middle square.

Translating: the only chance of an IG winning a battle against VLs with no human intervention is between 1/30 and 1/65, in case of a succesful battle dive.

[Asheera]

As I said, comparisons like these are pointless.

Because, for example, the Griffin's Battle Dive is MUCH stronger against ranged units and slow creatures.

[Wolfsburg]

Btw, Comparison with Grim Raiders: First, there are 41 Grims and 80 Vampire Lords. That's HALF (they're growth is only 80% of the Vampires though, NOT 50%)

And even if they're half, here are some combat results:

80 Vampire Lord hits Shadow Dragon: 377 damage dealt

41 Grim Raider hits Bone Dragon: 1064 damage dealt

As you can see Asheera, I was not the one who brought the whole "this unit is better than the VLs" in first place. And yes you are probably right those comparisons ARE pointless. But if you bring them here, be sure there will be evidence being shown. And the stronger evidence we got so far is pure maths Vampires rocked IGs.

Enjoy the replays,

W.

[Asheera]

The high damage those Grims did compared to the Vampires is because both attacked a high defense creature, not only because of the Heroes.

[danhvo]

Fortunately, mummies have very low speed. My necromancer did own two pieces of the Necro set, reducing their speed to 3, which allowed the VLs to jump around the battlefield to avoid them.

LOL and that makes the Vampires "great" creatures?

The point is, as someone pointed out, they are survivors. Sure, they might do a lot less damage than, say, grim raiders, but with their non-retaliatable attack, then can survive to attack again and again. So even against a ridiculously huge neutral melee army, they still have a chance.

And that makes them "great" creepers.

[parcaleste]

You can run a whole map by using only Vampires (esp. with the new Necro recruit system). Try do this with Raiders. It happens with Griffins too, but the Dive is SO RANDOM when it comes to landing afterwards, that sometimes I want to throw my PC trough the window


I think the question so far should be Vampires or Daughters? Haste + Slow (= No Retaliation) + Curse + Vulnerability = OUCH

[Jolly Joker]

I don't think, that creeping is so important here. You don't NEED Vampires for creeping, and without Raise Dead you'd LOATHE to use them against unliving creatures, lest you lose some. Moreover, the opposition is NOT boosted by a hero which leaves you free reign; if you meet a hero with some Stalkers and good enough power the result may just be as appaling as it will be with every other creeping force.
I don't think that 1 on 1 does it either, since that leaves most specials unused.
For me, in the great order of things, the Vampires are just a good unit. The truth in every battle is, that you can safely ignore them for a time (and if you don't ignore them you have to really reduce them, otherwise it makes no sense). Other units look very different here. Raiders are dangerous for EVERY unit, for example, even for a level 7. Plus the Lizard Bite does extra damage as well.
The Shaman family has a devastating destruction potential, while the Griffins are a most interesting tactical instrument.

[Lord Lakely]

I agree with Jolly Joker (I won't write too much about that, he made a good post about it)

anyway, I've got a Question for danvho:

Fortunately, mummies have very low speed. My necromancer did own two pieces of the Necro set, reducing their speed to 3, which allowed the VLs to jump around the battlefield to avoid them.

Then you're incorrect. Their Speed is 3

Now the Question: When did you attack them? I once attacked lots of Mummies With Raven (who had Expert Destructive and Master of Ice + Icebolt) on week five and got beaten heavily. I once managed to defeat Mummies with Blood Fury Creeping (complete with Leadership and Luck) and not earlier than week 2. So when attack them (this is off-topic, but I'd like to know, so I can try it later)

Btw: Apparently, Imperials can Battle Dive Themselves . If you don't believe me ask Elvin

[Asheera]

The point is, as someone pointed out, they are survivors. Sure, they might do a lot less damage than, say, grim raiders, but with their non-retaliatable attack, then can survive to attack again and again. So even against a ridiculously huge neutral melee army, they still have a chance.

So the Blood Fury who is MUCH better at these tricks is an IMBA unit, hmm?

[wimfrits]

1 blood fury + 6 stalkers get you a whole lot further than 7 vampire lords

Vampire lords are good for creeping. Well, part of creeping.
Upon first encounter, the vampire stack will often be too small to deal with ranged units, casters, undead, fast or strong melee units.
The window where victory without loss depends on life-drain of vampires is very very small, so in effect it can't really be counted as a key attribute.

The true reason that vampires are used in creeping is that it is the first Necro unit capable of decent creeping. Which is a result of Necro's worthless tier 1-3 units; not of the vampires' awesome traits.
If Necro had blood furies or crossbowmen or pixies or elves, the vampire dwelling could be skipped altogether.

I think that many people base their ideas of vampires on H2-H3-H4 vampires. Fortunately, H5 did a much better job at balancing these fellows.

[Banedon]

As you can see Asheera, I was not the one who brought the whole "this unit is better than the VLs" in first place. And yes you are probably right those comparisons ARE pointless. But if you bring them here, be sure there will be evidence being shown. And the stronger evidence we got so far is pure maths Vampires rocked IGs.

Enjoy the replays,

W.

Mind passing me the maps? I don't feel like fiddling with the map editor (which somehow seems extremely hard to use, compared to the previous version) but I'm fairly sure the Imperial Griffins can win a straight duel.

[Lord Lakely]

I'm Just appaled by the Number of Votes Succubi and Brawlers got. Both are weak Creatures...

No votes of the Magi? Outrageous!!!:mad:

[aaelgr]

Imperial Griffin eternal! (We all know the Battle one sucks)

[Asheera]

No votes of the Magi? Outrageous!!!:mad:

I'm really surprised only I voted for the Grim Raiders... those can do insane damage to tier 7s... even more than higher tiers!

Oh and please don't ever take into consideration that they die "fast" because they're targeted first! I mean, they're targeted first because they're too powerful and pose a big threat. That doesn't make them weak, that makes them uber (unless you say that Zombies are the best since they usually are the last targeted )

And mathematically, they don't die fast at all, they have the highest HP of tier 4 with growth included! (I think)

[Banedon]

I'm really surprised only I voted for the Grim Raiders... those can do insane damage to tier 7s... even more than higher tiers!

Oh and please don't ever take into consideration that they die "fast" because they're targeted first! I mean, they're targeted first because they're too powerful and pose a big threat. That doesn't make them weak, that makes them uber (unless you say that Zombies are the best since they usually are the last targeted )

And mathematically, they don't die fast at all, they have the highest HP of tier 4 with growth included! (I think)

You use exactly the same argument I used against DaemianLucifer a year and a half ago, when we were arguing over Blood Furies. The memories ...

But I can give concrete reasons why Grim Raiders, although excellent units, aren't the best in the tier. The biggest reason is that you can't use them well for a very long time. If you're Dungeon, you clear most neutrals with Blood Furies + Stalkers. You don't need / cannot use Grim Raiders against neutrals. Unlike Blood Furies which are small units, Grim Raiders are large units and cannot be easily barricaded; you cannot block Grim Raiders the way you might Blood Furies, such that they get their hits in while still being in a defensible position.

Hence, if you do use Grim Raiders against neutrals chances are they either die or you could've done without them anyway. And since you don't need them for so long, they don't deserve that high a spot.

[Asheera]

But I wasn't taking into consideration creeping abilities when voting in this poll