I am a Heroes noob I have a question.

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
Spalding
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I am a Heroes noob I have a question.

Unread postby Spalding » 28 Jul 2008, 03:29

I hear in these forums about people being able to take massive amounts of t7 creatures or dragons in week 2 or other rediculous?? things. I have read the dragon utopia guide but that is very strange.

Can some one enlighten me?

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Re: I am a Heroes noob I have a question.

Unread postby nevermindspy » 28 Jul 2008, 17:28

Spalding wrote:I hear in these forums about people being able to take massive amounts of t7 creatures or dragons in week 2 or other rediculous?? things. I have read the dragon utopia guide but that is very strange.

Can some one enlighten me?
I'm not sure what your asking.. ? What is strange?

In case your wondering its very possible to do such things.

And if your asking a how to do it question well thats a very long explanation that is individual to each faction and requires knowledge of all aspects of the game.

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Unread postby konfeta » 28 Jul 2008, 18:31

They are talking about fairly specific strategies that only some heroes have access too.

The one you are talking about involves using Haven's Marksmen who have the ability to nullify their opponents defense rating. Simply put, the real reason high level creatures dominate lowers is not because of higher damage or health, but because of their attack/defense rating allows them to tank more damage and deal more damage than you would expect them to.

For example, take a look at a stack of 6 Black Dragons (235 hp each).

1410 hitpoints doesn't look difficult for a stack of let's say, 70 Crossbowmen with divine strength on them to take out, right? Problem is, instead of dealing 70 * 8 damage a pop and wiping the stack out in 3 shots, the massive defense rating the Black Dragons have will reduce that damage by more than half. However, if you were to retrain the Crossbowmen into Marksmen and arrange your cannon fodder (the 1 peasant stacks) in a way to allow Marksmen to fire their shots at 3 tile range, you will easily wipe out the Dragons in 2-3 shots.

The end result is instead of fighting a stack that would incur massive casualties on your small army, you end up killing them for a price of a couple of peasants.

*this isn't a kind of strategy you should try pulling without practicing it beforehand, though. These things rely on fairly high understanding of how the game works, and a bit of luck.

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Unread postby fiur » 01 Aug 2008, 12:35

konfeta wrote:They are talking about fairly specific strategies that only some heroes have access too.

The one you are talking about involves using Haven's Marksmen who have the ability to nullify their opponents defense rating. Simply put, the real reason high level creatures dominate lowers is not because of higher damage or health, but because of their attack/defense rating allows them to tank more damage and deal more damage than you would expect them to.

For example, take a look at a stack of 6 Black Dragons (235 hp each).

1410 hitpoints doesn't look difficult for a stack of let's say, 70 Crossbowmen with divine strength on them to take out, right? Problem is, instead of dealing 70 * 8 damage a pop and wiping the stack out in 3 shots, the massive defense rating the Black Dragons have will reduce that damage by more than half. However, if you were to retrain the Crossbowmen into Marksmen and arrange your cannon fodder (the 1 peasant stacks) in a way to allow Marksmen to fire their shots at 3 tile range, you will easily wipe out the Dragons in 2-3 shots.

The end result is instead of fighting a stack that would incur massive casualties on your small army, you end up killing them for a price of a couple of peasants.

*this isn't a kind of strategy you should try pulling without practicing it beforehand, though. These things rely on fairly high understanding of how the game works, and a bit of luck.
And for sure placement of obstacle on the battlefield :)

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Unread postby Asheera » 01 Aug 2008, 15:36

Mostly it's about "abusing" the game with stacks of 1 tier 1 creature
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Unread postby konfeta » 02 Aug 2008, 06:48

How is putting down delicious, fat peasants as bait "abusing"? It's a perfectly legitimate and honorable tactic, human rights not withstanding.

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Unread postby Asheera » 02 Aug 2008, 18:51

konfeta wrote:How is putting down delicious, fat peasants as bait "abusing"? It's a perfectly legitimate and honorable tactic, human rights not withstanding.
It abuses the mechanics of this game (which is stack based). I mean, do you really think that (an example) 100 Paladins charge and kill ONE peasant and that's it? :P Were all 100 attacking the same peasant? I guess they would slaughter each other if they tried this (not to mention it's extremely stupid)
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Unread postby Borsuc » 02 Aug 2008, 19:23

I have an idea to fix this, but wouldn't tell it here. I think I already mentioned it somewhere else.

Basically only one Paladin kills the peasant, and the remaining 99 will move forward and attack something else (if they have enough speed). Of course the entire stack will move, but only 99 will do the damage.
All humans do is to go to a place, bountiful of nature, and live there. Then the human multiplies and sucks all the wonders there. They move to the next. There is one thing that works the same way as that: a virus.

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Unread postby konfeta » 02 Aug 2008, 22:00

If by abusing you mean using it as intended, sure. If you remove this, so many tactics will get snuffed out in the name of realism.

I mean, it would be nice as a special creature ability, but having an element of damage overflow and using your/enemy units' actions efficiently is a fairly important aspect of the game.

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Unread postby Borsuc » 03 Aug 2008, 11:48

That's only because you got used to it and you think you're better than noobs because you do it. :P trust me, if the situation was reversed you would not like it.

The game is supposed to be "real", otherwise why have all the realism graphics and not, for example, just some cartoonish cubes?


I'm amazed you call them "tactics". In popular forum language, there is a difference between "tactics" and "cheese" (in some games it's also called gay tactics). :P
All humans do is to go to a place, bountiful of nature, and live there. Then the human multiplies and sucks all the wonders there. They move to the next. There is one thing that works the same way as that: a virus.

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Unread postby konfeta » 03 Aug 2008, 16:46

It's a turn based strategy game set in a high fantasy world. What's this? Realism's suicide note?
That's only because you got used to it and you think you're better than noobs because you do it.
More likely I think so because Nival didn't remove it. It's a staple of the HoMM series by now, unless they feel compelled to re-imagine it in the next installment.
The game is supposed to be "real", otherwise why have all the realism graphics and not, for example, just some cartoonish cubes?
Pssst. This game has cartoony graphics. Don't tell anyone, though. It's a secret!

http://www.homm5.info/h/5/img/j_haven/peasant.jpg
http://www.costiga.net/wp-content/2007/ ... ngle_b.jpg
In popular forum language, there is a difference between "tactics" and "cheese" (in some games it's also called gay tactics). :P
Naw. Cheese is Arcane Archers, High Druids, old Training, and old Deleb. One unit stacks has been part of this game's overall strategy, since like, forever. This game isn't suppose to be a realistic presentation of medieval-fantasy warfare. It's an abstraction of warfare in medieval-fantasy warfare. Otherwise, the battlefield's wouldn't be a square Grid, you could split stacks mid-battle, have shooters attack more than one target, nobody would nicely wait for everybody else to take their turn, etc. etc. etc.

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Unread postby blizzardboy » 05 Aug 2008, 19:43

There's no such thing as "cheese tactics" or "cheese strategy" unless it can't be countered. The whole point of a strategy game is that you are suppose to think and act strategically. Sure, if you think of it in terms of strict realism, it doesn't make any sense that 100 paladins would kill one peasants simply because you stacked them that way, but that's how the rules of the game work, and either player can do it. Granted, it might be kind of lame, but it's not cheesy or unfair. If there is a strategy you can use that the other player is incapable of countering, then it is cheap and should be fixed.

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Unread postby John.Galt » 05 Aug 2008, 21:06

OK, what should happen is that if it only took 1% of your troops to kill a stack, your ATB should be reset to .99

Stacks of one peasant is quite lame and unrealistic. There is a difference in turn based strategy "unrealism" and 99 champions killing only one peasant. One is a slight variation of reality, the other defies all laws of common sense.
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Unread postby Asheera » 05 Aug 2008, 21:14

Good, another one who finds stacks of 1 peasant silly ;)
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Unread postby Wolfsburg » 05 Aug 2008, 21:19

Positioning is a main aspect of the game.

Which has nothing to do with realism, specialy because in that case the arcane archers would use their sharpshooting to put down the megacosmosblaster warlock hero in first place, and not wait for him to thorn the earth apart with their meteors and explosions.

Im with Konfeta on that one. Demmanding realism from Heroes V is fruitless.

Repeated Dark revelation and memory mentor to quick-reach lvl 40 is cheese. Optimizing your combat position to use the size of your opponents against them is what the game is all about.

Cheers,
W.

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Unread postby John.Galt » 05 Aug 2008, 21:45

The spirit of the game is not to have stacks of one peasant. That is all that need be said. Heroes should be like Ultimate Frisbee, and be played by the spirit of the game, not by however the heck you can abuse the game to make it not fun because 50 marksman and 10 peasants just killed 20 dragons in a utopia.
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 05 Aug 2008, 22:00

John.Galt wrote:The spirit of the game
That's the way you play...it is not dissimilar to the way I play.

But believe me not everyone plays that way. The game allows for faster and slower creeping and the competitive players use tricks to move faster.

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Unread postby blizzardboy » 05 Aug 2008, 22:31

John.Galt wrote:The spirit of the game is not to have stacks of one peasant. That is all that need be said. Heroes should be like Ultimate Frisbee, and be played by the spirit of the game, not by however the heck you can abuse the game to make it not fun because 50 marksman and 10 peasants just killed 20 dragons in a utopia.
I don't consider editing the maps and maxing out everything with obscenely huge stacks to be in the spirit of the game, since most maps, after all, are small or medium and only involve a few players. Needless to say I'll respectfully agree to disagree. I play pvp anymore though, so not taking advantage of positioning and stack distribution would make the game bland to me. Plus I would always lose against the Russians.

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Unread postby Elvin » 05 Aug 2008, 23:01

What spirit of the game? Decided by whom?

It's a strategy game where you use what you are given to prevail. The stack mechanic is there for a reason as is piercing shot and so many other abilities. Your job is to link such combos with good timing and prevent them from being used on you.

Should you not attack a garrison because it does not look 'logical' that you can win? Have you heard of Julius Caesar? In his Gaul campaign he managed to outmaneuver massively stronger armies because he was a brilliant tactician using the terrain, morale and what else to achieve his goals. Maybe he was an abuser too? Or should he avoid cheap tricks so he could be in harmony with the 'spirit' of warfare? Gimme a break.

Now there are some tactics that are cheesy which is why you have to treat your opponent like a human being and show some understanding - such as avoiding hit&run or using dungeon to win skirmish maps. That's all there is about it, rest is up to your luck and skill.
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Unread postby John.Galt » 06 Aug 2008, 03:03

blizzardboy wrote:I don't consider editing the maps and maxing out everything with obscenely huge stacks to be in the spirit of the game, since most maps, after all, are small or medium and only involve a few players.
I don't consider the AI cheating in the spirit of the game. I do that to counter the computers obscene resource advantage on the harder difficulties.
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