I am a Heroes noob I have a question.
I am a Heroes noob I have a question.
I hear in these forums about people being able to take massive amounts of t7 creatures or dragons in week 2 or other rediculous?? things. I have read the dragon utopia guide but that is very strange.
Can some one enlighten me?
Can some one enlighten me?
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- Pixie
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Re: I am a Heroes noob I have a question.
I'm not sure what your asking.. ? What is strange?Spalding wrote:I hear in these forums about people being able to take massive amounts of t7 creatures or dragons in week 2 or other rediculous?? things. I have read the dragon utopia guide but that is very strange.
Can some one enlighten me?
In case your wondering its very possible to do such things.
And if your asking a how to do it question well thats a very long explanation that is individual to each faction and requires knowledge of all aspects of the game.
They are talking about fairly specific strategies that only some heroes have access too.
The one you are talking about involves using Haven's Marksmen who have the ability to nullify their opponents defense rating. Simply put, the real reason high level creatures dominate lowers is not because of higher damage or health, but because of their attack/defense rating allows them to tank more damage and deal more damage than you would expect them to.
For example, take a look at a stack of 6 Black Dragons (235 hp each).
1410 hitpoints doesn't look difficult for a stack of let's say, 70 Crossbowmen with divine strength on them to take out, right? Problem is, instead of dealing 70 * 8 damage a pop and wiping the stack out in 3 shots, the massive defense rating the Black Dragons have will reduce that damage by more than half. However, if you were to retrain the Crossbowmen into Marksmen and arrange your cannon fodder (the 1 peasant stacks) in a way to allow Marksmen to fire their shots at 3 tile range, you will easily wipe out the Dragons in 2-3 shots.
The end result is instead of fighting a stack that would incur massive casualties on your small army, you end up killing them for a price of a couple of peasants.
*this isn't a kind of strategy you should try pulling without practicing it beforehand, though. These things rely on fairly high understanding of how the game works, and a bit of luck.
The one you are talking about involves using Haven's Marksmen who have the ability to nullify their opponents defense rating. Simply put, the real reason high level creatures dominate lowers is not because of higher damage or health, but because of their attack/defense rating allows them to tank more damage and deal more damage than you would expect them to.
For example, take a look at a stack of 6 Black Dragons (235 hp each).
1410 hitpoints doesn't look difficult for a stack of let's say, 70 Crossbowmen with divine strength on them to take out, right? Problem is, instead of dealing 70 * 8 damage a pop and wiping the stack out in 3 shots, the massive defense rating the Black Dragons have will reduce that damage by more than half. However, if you were to retrain the Crossbowmen into Marksmen and arrange your cannon fodder (the 1 peasant stacks) in a way to allow Marksmen to fire their shots at 3 tile range, you will easily wipe out the Dragons in 2-3 shots.
The end result is instead of fighting a stack that would incur massive casualties on your small army, you end up killing them for a price of a couple of peasants.
*this isn't a kind of strategy you should try pulling without practicing it beforehand, though. These things rely on fairly high understanding of how the game works, and a bit of luck.
And for sure placement of obstacle on the battlefieldkonfeta wrote:They are talking about fairly specific strategies that only some heroes have access too.
The one you are talking about involves using Haven's Marksmen who have the ability to nullify their opponents defense rating. Simply put, the real reason high level creatures dominate lowers is not because of higher damage or health, but because of their attack/defense rating allows them to tank more damage and deal more damage than you would expect them to.
For example, take a look at a stack of 6 Black Dragons (235 hp each).
1410 hitpoints doesn't look difficult for a stack of let's say, 70 Crossbowmen with divine strength on them to take out, right? Problem is, instead of dealing 70 * 8 damage a pop and wiping the stack out in 3 shots, the massive defense rating the Black Dragons have will reduce that damage by more than half. However, if you were to retrain the Crossbowmen into Marksmen and arrange your cannon fodder (the 1 peasant stacks) in a way to allow Marksmen to fire their shots at 3 tile range, you will easily wipe out the Dragons in 2-3 shots.
The end result is instead of fighting a stack that would incur massive casualties on your small army, you end up killing them for a price of a couple of peasants.
*this isn't a kind of strategy you should try pulling without practicing it beforehand, though. These things rely on fairly high understanding of how the game works, and a bit of luck.
It abuses the mechanics of this game (which is stack based). I mean, do you really think that (an example) 100 Paladins charge and kill ONE peasant and that's it? Were all 100 attacking the same peasant? I guess they would slaughter each other if they tried this (not to mention it's extremely stupid)konfeta wrote:How is putting down delicious, fat peasants as bait "abusing"? It's a perfectly legitimate and honorable tactic, human rights not withstanding.
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.
I have an idea to fix this, but wouldn't tell it here. I think I already mentioned it somewhere else.
Basically only one Paladin kills the peasant, and the remaining 99 will move forward and attack something else (if they have enough speed). Of course the entire stack will move, but only 99 will do the damage.
Basically only one Paladin kills the peasant, and the remaining 99 will move forward and attack something else (if they have enough speed). Of course the entire stack will move, but only 99 will do the damage.
All humans do is to go to a place, bountiful of nature, and live there. Then the human multiplies and sucks all the wonders there. They move to the next. There is one thing that works the same way as that: a virus.
If by abusing you mean using it as intended, sure. If you remove this, so many tactics will get snuffed out in the name of realism.
I mean, it would be nice as a special creature ability, but having an element of damage overflow and using your/enemy units' actions efficiently is a fairly important aspect of the game.
I mean, it would be nice as a special creature ability, but having an element of damage overflow and using your/enemy units' actions efficiently is a fairly important aspect of the game.
That's only because you got used to it and you think you're better than noobs because you do it. trust me, if the situation was reversed you would not like it.
The game is supposed to be "real", otherwise why have all the realism graphics and not, for example, just some cartoonish cubes?
I'm amazed you call them "tactics". In popular forum language, there is a difference between "tactics" and "cheese" (in some games it's also called gay tactics).
The game is supposed to be "real", otherwise why have all the realism graphics and not, for example, just some cartoonish cubes?
I'm amazed you call them "tactics". In popular forum language, there is a difference between "tactics" and "cheese" (in some games it's also called gay tactics).
All humans do is to go to a place, bountiful of nature, and live there. Then the human multiplies and sucks all the wonders there. They move to the next. There is one thing that works the same way as that: a virus.
It's a turn based strategy game set in a high fantasy world. What's this? Realism's suicide note?
http://www.homm5.info/h/5/img/j_haven/peasant.jpg
http://www.costiga.net/wp-content/2007/ ... ngle_b.jpg
More likely I think so because Nival didn't remove it. It's a staple of the HoMM series by now, unless they feel compelled to re-imagine it in the next installment.That's only because you got used to it and you think you're better than noobs because you do it.
Pssst. This game has cartoony graphics. Don't tell anyone, though. It's a secret!The game is supposed to be "real", otherwise why have all the realism graphics and not, for example, just some cartoonish cubes?
http://www.homm5.info/h/5/img/j_haven/peasant.jpg
http://www.costiga.net/wp-content/2007/ ... ngle_b.jpg
Naw. Cheese is Arcane Archers, High Druids, old Training, and old Deleb. One unit stacks has been part of this game's overall strategy, since like, forever. This game isn't suppose to be a realistic presentation of medieval-fantasy warfare. It's an abstraction of warfare in medieval-fantasy warfare. Otherwise, the battlefield's wouldn't be a square Grid, you could split stacks mid-battle, have shooters attack more than one target, nobody would nicely wait for everybody else to take their turn, etc. etc. etc.In popular forum language, there is a difference between "tactics" and "cheese" (in some games it's also called gay tactics).
- blizzardboy
- Pixie
- Posts: 103
- Joined: 25 Apr 2008
There's no such thing as "cheese tactics" or "cheese strategy" unless it can't be countered. The whole point of a strategy game is that you are suppose to think and act strategically. Sure, if you think of it in terms of strict realism, it doesn't make any sense that 100 paladins would kill one peasants simply because you stacked them that way, but that's how the rules of the game work, and either player can do it. Granted, it might be kind of lame, but it's not cheesy or unfair. If there is a strategy you can use that the other player is incapable of countering, then it is cheap and should be fixed.
OK, what should happen is that if it only took 1% of your troops to kill a stack, your ATB should be reset to .99
Stacks of one peasant is quite lame and unrealistic. There is a difference in turn based strategy "unrealism" and 99 champions killing only one peasant. One is a slight variation of reality, the other defies all laws of common sense.
Stacks of one peasant is quite lame and unrealistic. There is a difference in turn based strategy "unrealism" and 99 champions killing only one peasant. One is a slight variation of reality, the other defies all laws of common sense.
I swear - by my life, and my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Positioning is a main aspect of the game.
Which has nothing to do with realism, specialy because in that case the arcane archers would use their sharpshooting to put down the megacosmosblaster warlock hero in first place, and not wait for him to thorn the earth apart with their meteors and explosions.
Im with Konfeta on that one. Demmanding realism from Heroes V is fruitless.
Repeated Dark revelation and memory mentor to quick-reach lvl 40 is cheese. Optimizing your combat position to use the size of your opponents against them is what the game is all about.
Cheers,
W.
Which has nothing to do with realism, specialy because in that case the arcane archers would use their sharpshooting to put down the megacosmosblaster warlock hero in first place, and not wait for him to thorn the earth apart with their meteors and explosions.
Im with Konfeta on that one. Demmanding realism from Heroes V is fruitless.
Repeated Dark revelation and memory mentor to quick-reach lvl 40 is cheese. Optimizing your combat position to use the size of your opponents against them is what the game is all about.
Cheers,
W.
The spirit of the game is not to have stacks of one peasant. That is all that need be said. Heroes should be like Ultimate Frisbee, and be played by the spirit of the game, not by however the heck you can abuse the game to make it not fun because 50 marksman and 10 peasants just killed 20 dragons in a utopia.
I swear - by my life, and my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
- PhoenixReborn
- Round Table Hero
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- blizzardboy
- Pixie
- Posts: 103
- Joined: 25 Apr 2008
I don't consider editing the maps and maxing out everything with obscenely huge stacks to be in the spirit of the game, since most maps, after all, are small or medium and only involve a few players. Needless to say I'll respectfully agree to disagree. I play pvp anymore though, so not taking advantage of positioning and stack distribution would make the game bland to me. Plus I would always lose against the Russians.John.Galt wrote:The spirit of the game is not to have stacks of one peasant. That is all that need be said. Heroes should be like Ultimate Frisbee, and be played by the spirit of the game, not by however the heck you can abuse the game to make it not fun because 50 marksman and 10 peasants just killed 20 dragons in a utopia.
What spirit of the game? Decided by whom?
It's a strategy game where you use what you are given to prevail. The stack mechanic is there for a reason as is piercing shot and so many other abilities. Your job is to link such combos with good timing and prevent them from being used on you.
Should you not attack a garrison because it does not look 'logical' that you can win? Have you heard of Julius Caesar? In his Gaul campaign he managed to outmaneuver massively stronger armies because he was a brilliant tactician using the terrain, morale and what else to achieve his goals. Maybe he was an abuser too? Or should he avoid cheap tricks so he could be in harmony with the 'spirit' of warfare? Gimme a break.
Now there are some tactics that are cheesy which is why you have to treat your opponent like a human being and show some understanding - such as avoiding hit&run or using dungeon to win skirmish maps. That's all there is about it, rest is up to your luck and skill.
It's a strategy game where you use what you are given to prevail. The stack mechanic is there for a reason as is piercing shot and so many other abilities. Your job is to link such combos with good timing and prevent them from being used on you.
Should you not attack a garrison because it does not look 'logical' that you can win? Have you heard of Julius Caesar? In his Gaul campaign he managed to outmaneuver massively stronger armies because he was a brilliant tactician using the terrain, morale and what else to achieve his goals. Maybe he was an abuser too? Or should he avoid cheap tricks so he could be in harmony with the 'spirit' of warfare? Gimme a break.
Now there are some tactics that are cheesy which is why you have to treat your opponent like a human being and show some understanding - such as avoiding hit&run or using dungeon to win skirmish maps. That's all there is about it, rest is up to your luck and skill.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron
- Metathron
I don't consider the AI cheating in the spirit of the game. I do that to counter the computers obscene resource advantage on the harder difficulties.blizzardboy wrote:I don't consider editing the maps and maxing out everything with obscenely huge stacks to be in the spirit of the game, since most maps, after all, are small or medium and only involve a few players.
I swear - by my life, and my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
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