Best level 5 spell

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In my opinion, the best level 5 spell is

Vampirism (10 mana)
11
16%
Puppet Master (18)
45
64%
Curse of the Netherworld (15)
0
No votes
Implosion (18)
6
9%
Armageddon (20)
2
3%
Word of Light (15)
1
1%
Resurrection (15)
3
4%
Arcane Armor (20)
0
No votes
Conjure Phoenix (20)
2
3%
 
Total votes: 70

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Lord Lakely
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Deep Freeze

Postby Lord Lakely » Jul 2 2008, 11:08

Ok, You may disagree with me on this one, but during the course of playing TotE I really grew fond of [b]Deep Freeze[/b]. It does simply enormous damage, I once had a Deep Freeze that did more damage than Implosion. After all there is a Master of Ice and no Master of Earth (which would have been quite IMBA). Deep Freeze is cheap, easy to enhanced by the Evercold Icicle or Master of Ice, in other words a great lvl5 spell. To me it's the best. B-)

Puppet Master is second and Ressurrection is a close third.

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Postby Elvin » Jul 2 2008, 11:23

That means that you had evercold icicle :tongue: Deep freeze does less damage than implosion.
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Postby Panda Tar » Jul 2 2008, 14:24

It all depends on strategy. In a general way, I prefer Puppet master and then Vampirism, although they are useless if you are fighting machines and undead.

For all effects, I like Implosion and Deep Freeze.

And, as I'm not fond of losing units, Resurrection comes after those.

The other spells I rarely cast them.

Summon Phoenix is really helpful most of times too.
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Postby Lord Lakely » Jul 3 2008, 19:05

[quote="Elvin"]That means that you had evercold icicle :tongue: Deep freeze does less damage than implosion.[/quote]

Yeah :)
I oddly enough almost allways manage to get my hands on it. I once had Jhora with Deep Freeze, Expert Destructive, Master of Ice, Expert Sorcery, Distract, Warlock's Luck, the Evercold Icycle and a throng of Archmagi. My most glorious victory ever B-)

Since then it's Deep Freeze ftw

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Postby Dark_PC Gamer » Jul 3 2008, 21:07

Voted vamparism, works best on creatures that have unlimited retalation, likes griffins.
But puppet master might be more powerful.

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Postby Milla aka. the Slayer » Jul 4 2008, 14:50

Metathron wrote:Could a mod please add Summon Phoenix?


I tried but couldn't find out how. Anyway, shouldn't you be able to add it yourself? :)
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Postby Kalah » Jul 4 2008, 16:52

I took care of it. :)
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Postby Asheera » Jul 6 2008, 13:48

Puppet Master by far. That spell is just too strong. Frenzy is also great, but that's not a level 5 spell :D

And Implosion is a disappointment: too much mana cost for such a low damage :mad:
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Postby discostu » Jul 23 2008, 2:28

Macros the Black wrote:My list would have to be, in order of best to least:

AngelEyes wrote:Agree w/ Vampirism. I would select Armageddon if Warlocks could cast it w/o hurting their black dragons, but sadly, they can't. :(

Don't take Elemental Vision and your Black Dragons won't get hurt. Don't see the problem here.. Besides, Armageddon still works for Academy and Fortress.


Whoa..hold up! Could someone explain this to mean a bit more. Why does getting elemental visions make your Black dragons susceptible to Armageddon?

I mean, B.D's are supposed to be immune to magic right.

Just last night this fact pretty much lost me my game against my good friend -- about 15 hours into the game (it was a pretty epic one) I had my best hero at the time (with an army of 2 black dragons) cast empowered armageddon against a computer player thinking nothing of it (having had no problems doing this before), and then was absolutely horrified when my dragons got wasted. I was pretty choked -- I couldn't figure out until, well, just reading that line above.

If someone could shed light on this I'd be really grateful.

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Postby Banedon » Jul 23 2008, 5:43

Whoa..hold up! Could someone explain this to mean a bit more. Why does getting elemental visions make your Black dragons susceptible to Armageddon?


Irresistable Magic makes Black Dragons susceptible to Armageddon, though I don't see what Elemental Vision has to do with Irresistable Magic (you already have Irresistable Magic anyway as a Warlock).

I think there're only a few real choices here, and eventually choose Deep Freeze. The spells:

Vampirism - a good spell, and a possible choice.

Puppet Master - overrated I say, since you can already be certain your opponent will have counters to this (last time my opponent tried to Puppet Master my Emerald Dragons, it got Resisted thanks to Magic Resistance + me positioning the Emerald Dragons next to Silver Unicorns). Even if no resistance, your opponent will go all out to remove Puppet Master ASAP, and he normally will be able to (Magical Immunity especially; if he cannot he's either a bad player or else quite unlucky). Since Puppet Master decreases the target's initiative you might not get to use them, and if you don't get to use them then all there is to the spell is delaying its actions (Deep Freeze does that just as well) or to get off unretaliated attacks (how many you get before Puppet Master gets cleansed is anyone's guess, and you can already get off [some] unretaliated attacks just by hitting the target with Slow on him - and Deep Freeze gives you more damage on the target too). I think Puppet Master is a decent spell but not near the best; I'd normally rather have Deep Freeze and use it against neutrals too. Puppet Master is best in the campaigns but not in multiplayer.

Curse of the Netherworld / Word of Light - too low damage.

Deep Freeze - A (very) good spell for obvious reasons. You deal extra physical damage (equivalent to a curse effect from a Dark Magic spell), stuns the target (of considerable tactical value) and deal pretty heavy magical damage. Very powerful, with all three effects deadly against the key damage-dealing creatures you most want to use Deep Freeze on.

Implosion - Quite a good spell, but I do think the tactical effects from Deep Freeze is superior, and besides when you want to deal death and destruction from Destructive Magic the AoE Meteor Shower is usually better.

Armageddon - Too difficult to use.

Resurrection - Fairly weak in a serious fight, useful against neutrals but then if you have level 5 spells at your disposal you typically don't lose much, if any, of your key creatures to neutrals.

Arcane Armor - OK, but rather too defensive (and specialized) for my tastes. The Arcane Armor'ed unit is still vulnerable to curses after all, and Arcane Armor does not do anything to boost its performance (no Haste / Righteous Might / etc effect).

Conjure Phoenix - Very strong, and I'd say the runner up in this level. Key advantages are free retaliation stealing, heavy damage potential and provides an expendable blocker. Key disadvantages include a delayed effect (most of the time, you cannot use the Phoenix at once), you can only have one Phoenix at a time (not so bad though since one Phoenix is a tremendous force on the battlefield, and there are other spells to cast) and some specialized counters (Harm Touch, Vorpal Blade). It also has all the quirks of Summoning magic spells. You lose if your army is decimated and you only have the Phoenix left, but you are extremely deadly if armies are small and your opponent cannot hit your units easily (magical immune units, invisible Stalkers, etc).

Overall I pick Deep Freeze, with Conjure Phoenix for second place.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Jul 23 2008, 7:03

Fine analysis Banedon, especially for Puppet Master, but I kind of disagree with a couple of points:

COtN/WoL: the damage isn't low, it's actually huge. 144 + 12*Power for each stack is actually MASSIVE, especially when you consider Master of Pain/Wrath giving an additional +4 Power while at least a Knight may gain an additional +3 for Twilight on both. Even with only 5 stacks for the opposition and a meagre 4 Power + another 4 for MoW, a Word of Light casting will kill a whopping 1200 Hit Points which is massive. A Necro with his high power will easily do 1500+ damage and against a full 7-stack army 2000+ damage are the rule.
The trouble with this spell is that it's either extremely powerful or completely useless which is a big let-down.

Deep Freeze has the problem that damage is actually quite low most of the time, if the spell isn't cast by a Warlock. The freeze effect is great, though, and may add massive damage amounts.

Conjure Phoenix beats it, though, in my opinion: the Summoning heroes all tend to have good power and some stats are actually dependant only on level. That beast is quite difficult to kill except with the mentioned creature abilities.

Vampirism is great - except against Necro, of course.


So the bottom line is, in practise each faction - except Axademy - can depend on only 2 of the 4 schools, and which one of them would be best would depend on the opponent. Take Inferno, for example. Working spells are Deep Freeze, Implosion, Armageddon, CotN, Vampirism and Puppet Master. Since Inferno isn't famous for having lots of Spell Power the Destructive spells are not that good - except of course against Necro because all the Dark spells are not usable against them.

I think therefore, that a general rating doesn't make sense.
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Postby rjl1202 » Jul 29 2008, 22:06

OK... I'm going to be unpopular, but implosion is just incredibly good, or can be under the right circumstances.

I play almost exclusively as Sylvan. Triple Ballista, Imbue Ballista, Expert Destructive magic. That's all that really need be said.

Rain of arrows an army that has three favored enemies in it (Realistic if you're remotely good at planning out your attacks) and triple ballista. That's six implosions in one round. Lets say you have 30 spellpower from items and level ups, that's 1240 damage, in addition to any items you might have that give increased spell damage to earth (A likely possibility). With +50% earth its 1860 per cast.

1860 x 6 casts = 11160 damage, and that's in addition to normal damage done by your ballista and hero, which considering that with Burning Arrows your ballista ignores defense, is usually tremendous.

Looking at a singular cast, implosion may not be that great, but you have to look its versatility as well. There's only one way to use most spells, and they don't benefit from repeated casts, but implosion is the best simply because it is more versatile than the others.

(Chain lighting, master of storms, and rain of arrows also makes for a nice combination too)

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Postby John.Galt » Jul 31 2008, 0:11

I agree rjl, implosion, or any destructive magic skill can just reek absolute havoc with triple ballista/imbue arrow/expert destruct.
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Postby Lord Lakely » Jul 31 2008, 7:44

Banedon wrote:
Whoa..hold up! Could someone explain this to mean a bit more. Why does getting elemental visions make your Black dragons susceptible to Armageddon?


Irresistable Magic makes Black Dragons susceptible to Armageddon, though I don't see what Elemental Vision has to do with Irresistable Magic (you already have Irresistable Magic anyway as a Warlock).
.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Irresistable Magic only lowers RESISTANCES, that means Magic Proof 25% and stuff like that. If you ever reach Ultimate Irresistable Magic, you will ignore every Resistances for sure (Magic Resistance, Protection, Magic Proof effect) Irresistable Magic DOESN'T AFFECT Immunities. (like those of Black Dragons). There are artifact that can break the dragon's immunity (I've forgotten their names, but I'm sure there are) and if you find those, you can easily toast your Blackies with your own Armageddon.

EDITED: Typos removed, and I mean "doesn't affect", not "ignores"
Last edited by Lord Lakely on Jul 31 2008, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby konfeta » Jul 31 2008, 9:13

Deep Freeze has the problem that damage is actually quite low most of the time, if the spell isn't cast by a Warlock. The freeze effect is great, though, and may add massive damage amounts.


It's damage is 75% that of implosion, that's not low by any means. And the +physical damage boost is just brutal.

Even with only 10 spellpower, it's a 33% damage boost on the target. Once you start stacking spellpower or abusing things like High Druids, you can get an amazing "make this thing die" button. Implosion can't compare unless you have Slippers and no icicle.

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Postby Asheera » Jul 31 2008, 13:05

Not to mention that Deep Freeze costs only 11 Mana, while Implosion 18 ;)

And Deep Freeze is also influenced by Master of Ice


Deep Freeze >>>>>>>>> Implosion
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Postby danhvo » Jul 31 2008, 18:32

Lord Lakely wrote:Irresistable Magic DOESN'T AFFECT Immunities. (like those of Black Dragons).


I'm surprised you said that. I thought it is well-known that Irresistible Magic treats immunities as 100% protection. Hence, a warlock with Expert Irresistible Magic will do 50% magic damage to black dragons. That's the complain people have about warlocks in Heroes V. They can no longer pull that Armageddon/black dragon trick with impunity. In fact, Armageddon works better for Runemages. They have some high tier creatures that are immune to fire, plus they have the Rune of Elemental Immunity that has a 50% chance of granting fire immunity.
Last edited by danhvo on Aug 1 2008, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Asheera » Jul 31 2008, 18:34

Yes, Immunity = 100% Magic Protection = 100% Magic Resistance
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Postby Borsuc » Jul 31 2008, 18:40

Lord Lakely wrote:Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Irresistable Magic only lowers RESISTANCES, that means Magic Proof 25% and stuff like that.
Seriously did you even tested that? Everyone seems to be making claims these days... :P
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Postby Asheera » Jul 31 2008, 19:02

Ok, to make things clear:

Irresistible Magic affects Immunities (like the Black Dragon), Magic Protections (like a Steel Golem with 75% Magic Proof, or every creature under the effect of the Protection perk) AND Magic Resistance (like a Unicorn or any creature under the effect of the Magic Resistance perk)

1) In the immunity case, Irresistible Magic simply affects the creature with a weakened effect (based on mastery - at expert, for example, it's 50%)

2) In the protection case, Irresistible Magic affects the amount of protection. That means, for expert mastery, the skill will lower the 75% protection by 50%, which means it will be halved: 37.5%

3) In the resistance case, Irresistible Magic works ONLY when the creature resists the spell. Otherwise, it's full damage as usual. When the creature resists, it's like it gained Immunity, and thus your spell under the effect of Irresistible Magic will work the same as in (1)


Hope that clears this :)
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