Heroes on battlefield

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 9 2006, 22:31

Might heroes will still get more defense and attack then magic ones, and they will still opt for the more might oriented skills and abilities then mage heroes so that will offset their inability to cast high level spells. Spells are just fine now, it's in Heroes 3 that Magic heroes were the weak link.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 9 2006, 23:52

They might, but are the skills worth it compared to spells? And as lvls go up they'll all become more alike. That's why the race-only-skills were added by Nival/Ubi. But that still doesn't change the fact that 2 heroes of the same race will be very alike at high lvls. Not to mention that magic heroes will still give Atk and Def bonuses to all creatures.
I noticed that now heroes have ranged attacks. At least there's that.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 10 2006, 1:47

I'm not sure if that ranged attack is intended to be there. And truth is that magic heroes will gain attack and defense to creatures, but it will be a lot smaller bonus in comparison to might heroes, thats the price for getting points into power/knowledge. If I fight a Haven guy he will most probably have higher attack and defense and couple it with defence and/or offence, his troops will be MUCH stronger then mine if I'm playing a Warlock/Wizard, as I will not have that high of an attack / defense and will probably not invest in defence and offense, unless I want to be a lot weaker at magic, which would be bad for me since I got lower att/def then the Haven hero.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 10 2006, 1:57

So you really think that those 10 extra in attack and defence are enough to cover for all those magic?One weakness,or curse,or slow,or enfeblement rey and those bonuses are nullified.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 10 2006, 1:58

@Infiltrator:
Most of the stats in H3 were gained from town and adv map structure bonuses. You only get 1 stat at each lvl up, and that's not really enough to make such a big difference. Also there comes a point when putting points into Knowledge is no longer needed, but Atk and Def are always good. And because you can learn lvl1&2 spells anyway might heroes will also need some points in Knowledge and Power.

And now with the small BF = faster battles and magic heroes also having race-only skills you'll prob need even less mana.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 10 2006, 2:12

Daemian, 10 extra in attack and defence, coupled with Defense and Offense, which will grant magic and phisical resistance as well as damage upgrade to your creatures WILL be enough to stand shoulder by shoulder with magic heroes whos troops are much weaker in stats.

ThunderTitan, Knowledge is needed even if you might think it isn't - Imps for example will make you pay very much if you put on a mithril helm instead of a crown of the magi. And frankly, Might heroes will be effective at casting level 1-2 spells even with 3-5 knowledge. They don't have to invest anything in their Power/Knowledge while Magic heroes have to put in att. and def. at some point because their troops wont live long enough for them to fully utilize their mana pool.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 10 2006, 2:26

Imps are Inferno only. And like i said, you don't really get to choose in what you put ur stats, the map does. 10 extra stats mean 10 levels, which prob won't go into the same stat anyway.
And magic heroes can learn Offence & Defense too. Especialy since they no longer need to learn Wisdom to get High lvl spells. And since when does Defense grant magical resistance?
Ur also forgeting that Magic heroes don't loose skill slots on spells, while might heroes loose them in order to get a certain ability. Magic heroes are still at an advantage. And might heroes aren't pure might heroes anyway.
Maybe it's better than in H3, but it's still not good enough IMO. But then again will have to see how it works in the final game.
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Feb 10 2006, 7:28

ThunderTitan wrote:They might, but are the skills worth it compared to spells? And as lvls go up they'll all become more alike. That's why the race-only-skills were added by Nival/Ubi. But that still doesn't change the fact that 2 heroes of the same race will be very alike at high lvls.

:lolu:

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Postby theGryphon » Feb 10 2006, 8:47

I think none of the heroes in HV are pure might or pure magic. There are magic oriented races and heroes which develop magic related skills easier, and there are might oriented ones that improve in might related skills better. It's true that some special abilities look like magic with no mana cost, but this kind of thinking just narrows "might" into only two stats: attack and defence. So I them as fancy might related abilities.
Still a magic hero can learn and develop defence and offence skills, such as a might hero can learn spells. So I think there is a pretty good blend of might AND magic. There is more magical skills (plus special abilities) and magician creatures that any of previous games, but thankfully the inherent might is still there: it is the creatures that fight and win with might! Now, we just have more attribute modifiers. (PS: IMO direct damage spells will again become obsolete in late game)
As for the heroes in battle, I don't know how much damage can a level say 30 hero can inflict on his foes. Do you think it would be worth to use a heroes turn for that? Save for Haven (absolute charge) or maybe Sylvan (multishot, snipe dead), I guess not. Other than that, I find this system more manageable from balancing perspective, and I think it is closer to HIII rather than HIV, which is good. HIV system is very challenging to balance, which failed. Comparing to HIII, heroes now have their own turn, they are more like commanders that fight along their army, not spellcasting-statues.
Heroes in a stack? I don't think so! I agree it may feel even more fighting-along-the-army, but give a thought on its implementation. What happens is that stack is destroyed but there are still others? How would the stack look like on the battle field? Who's turn is it? Answer these questions and you should see it wouldn't be much different from what is now, maybe except for visualization.
Overall, I think the game has a huge potential. Secondary skills are awesome, and contrary to some of you may think no two heroes in the late game will be similar. Finally, don't worry, "might" is still there, and it is still the final determinant. It's just that there are more fancy modifiers and abilities then ever. It's a HOMM meal with new spices on it, and cooked a little different (well, the chef has changed), but some are whining before eating the whole dish...

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 10 2006, 10:35

gryphonheart wrote:Heroes in a stack? I don't think so! I agree it may feel even more fighting-along-the-army, but give a thought on its implementation. What happens is that stack is destroyed but there are still others? How would the stack look like on the battle field? Who's turn is it? Answer these questions and you should see it wouldn't be much different from what is now, maybe except for visualization.


The stack could have an extra baner over it,simple as that.The main difference between it and HV system would be that not ever y heroes stats would improve its creatures(Im talking about attack and defense mostly),and that casting a spell would require you to sacrifice one stacks action completely.So do you shoot with your titans and kill 10 succubi,or do you bless your gremlins so they could kill 20 of them,but risk taking fire from succubi.

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 10 2006, 11:34

ThunderTitan wrote:Imps are Inferno only. And like i said, you don't really get to choose in what you put ur stats, the map does. 10 extra stats mean 10 levels, which prob won't go into the same stat anyway.
And magic heroes can learn Offence & Defense too. Especialy since they no longer need to learn Wisdom to get High lvl spells. And since when does Defense grant magical resistance?
Ur also forgeting that Magic heroes don't loose skill slots on spells, while might heroes loose them in order to get a certain ability. Magic heroes are still at an advantage. And might heroes aren't pure might heroes anyway.
Maybe it's better than in H3, but it's still not good enough IMO. But then again will have to see how it works in the final game.


So what if Imps are inferno only, there are several abilities which force the enemy hero to spend more mana. Offense and Defense for Magic? Unlikely, 1 slot for racial, 1 or 2 for magic shool, 1 logistics, 1 sorcery and 1 and that's about it, the 6th can be diffense or offense but, in my case, I pick luck. Defense has also got an ability which makes your creatures take less magic damage from attacks.

Magic Heroes don't lose skill slots on spells - I don't understand that one, they need skills and ablities as much as might, which, don't have to build mage guilds and thus have a faster town development.

Like Gaidal Cain said, you need to have some practice before you start forming your opinions, right now you are trying to convince me in something, but I'm almost sure that you haven't even finished one game. So come back when you've played 15 or more 6-hour games with a human opponent to the end and then we can talk facts.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 10 2006, 11:50

You could always pick one magic school and both offense and defense(which isnt a briliant choice though).And by "Magic Heroes don't lose skill slots on spells" he meant that you need to pick special abilities like holy charge,or prayer,while spells you get just for money.

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 10 2006, 11:54

I meant to say that I don't understand his point, He gets a "spell" from an ability, so? In most of my games even though I'm a warlock I fill out my abilities first, because if I don't my spells that I "get just for the money" would be useless. That argument just doesn't hold any water.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 10 2006, 11:56

Gaidal Cain wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:They might, but are the skills worth it compared to spells? And as lvls go up they'll all become more alike. That's why the race-only-skills were added by Nival/Ubi. But that still doesn't change the fact that 2 heroes of the same race will be very alike at high lvls.

:lolu:

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OK so would 2 heroes that have the same special skills but one has generic magic skills and the other some generic might ones are actualy that different? I agree that it better that in H3 but i'm not sure it's that different.
I'll try to play to higher lvls to see if ur right but the 3D graphs are annoying the living hell outta me so i don't guarantee anything.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 10 2006, 12:01

Yes they would be very different.Unless you level them to have completely the same skills,including the race special.And infiltrator is right.Except for the very begining,your spells are useless unles you take those skills.

But the point is,that in that most of those so called might skills,are actually spells with a diferent name,and there isnt a single pure might hero.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 10 2006, 12:05

Infiltrator wrote:I meant to say that I don't understand his point, He gets a "spell" from an ability, so? In most of my games even though I'm a warlock I fill out my abilities first, because if I don't my spells that I "get just for the money" would be useless. That argument just doesn't hold any water.


I meant that you use a skill slot on the ability while a magic hero doesn't use any skill slots for spells, so they can invest in other skills that help them be better at magic. It has nothing to do with what you get first, skills or spells.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 10 2006, 12:11

DaemianLucifer wrote:Yes they would be very different.Unless you level them to have completely the same skills,including the race special.And infiltrator is right.Except for the very begining,your spells are useless unles you take those skills.


As different as two H4 heroes when one has only Might skills and the other only magic skills? Sure they would be different in what stat bonuses the creatures get and what spells they have, but as their special is the same the main difference is what spells they can cast.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 10 2006, 12:12

Magic should work similar to HIV.Without magic skills you have no magic at all.With basic,you get level 1.Advanced 2 and 3.Expert 4 and 5.

Or:basic gives you levels 1 and 2.Advanced 3 and 4,but you can also learn level 1 in other schools.Expert gives you 5,but also the ability to learn levels 2 and 3 in other schools.

Or some combination of the above.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Feb 10 2006, 12:16

ThunderTitan wrote: I meant that you use a skill slot on the ability while a magic hero doesn't use any skill slots for spells, so they can invest in other skills that help them be better at magic. It has nothing to do with what you get first, skills or spells.


As I said, do yourself a favor and try playing the game first. There are no slots lost on abilities, only skills. And magic heroes needs to pick abilities that enhance their spells if the spells are going to have much effect.

Oh, and with the amount of skills and abilities out there, building up two carbon copies of a hero type is bound to be very hard. The skills and abilities system actually makes heroes more diverse than they've ever been.
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Postby theGryphon » Feb 10 2006, 15:36

DaemianLucifer wrote:The stack could have an extra baner over it,simple as that.The main difference between it and HV system would be that not ever y heroes stats would improve its creatures(Im talking about attack and defense mostly),and that casting a spell would require you to sacrifice one stacks action completely.So do you shoot with your titans and kill 10 succubi,or do you bless your gremlins so they could kill 20 of them,but risk taking fire from succubi.


Still I don't see much of a difference. There are already lots of strategical decisions (long- and short-term). Btw, what do you mean by "not every stats", or what's your idea about it? Finally, just an extra banner??! What about the glorious commander that has a figure of its own? And, you were talking about displaying equipped artifacts on heroes, right (I'd really like that too)? So, trust me, if they did what you say, you would probably hate it more than any of us! :)


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