Heroes on battlefield

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Bandobras Took
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Postby Bandobras Took » Feb 5 2006, 21:22

DaemianLucifer wrote:So,having immortal heroes that can attack anything,cast spells and boost their creatures is balanced,while having heroes that can attack and cast spells,but are also vulnerable,and have to have a special skill in order to boost their creatures is imbalanced?Hmmm...I think Ive learned some faulty logic then.


Not precisely, but you may have missed my point. Heroes aren't immortal. Their life is directly linked to their army's survivability. If your creatures get destroyed, it doesn't matter whether your hero can sling around chain lightning or not. By making heroes vulnerable, you turn the entire army into support for your hero rather than making your hero be support for your army. I never really found it unbalanced in Heroes 1-3 that you had to target a hero's creatures instead of the hero themselves. I'm hard-pressed to understand what the grievance is in reverting to that system rather than Heroes IV.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 5 2006, 21:31

Bandobras Took wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:So,having immortal heroes that can attack anything,cast spells and boost their creatures is balanced,while having heroes that can attack and cast spells,but are also vulnerable,and have to have a special skill in order to boost their creatures is imbalanced?Hmmm...I think Ive learned some faulty logic then.


Not precisely, but you may have missed my point. Heroes aren't immortal. Their life is directly linked to their army's survivability. If your creatures get destroyed, it doesn't matter whether your hero can sling around chain lightning or not. By making heroes vulnerable, you turn the entire army into support for your hero rather than making your hero be support for your army. I never really found it unbalanced in Heroes 1-3 that you had to target a hero's creatures instead of the hero themselves. I'm hard-pressed to understand what the grievance is in reverting to that system rather than Heroes IV.


Well my point is that both systems are flawed.This way you cannot win without creatures,but neither can you prevent the enemy hero from harming you when his turn comes,while if hero would be vulnerable he could be hampered(morale decreases,confusion,wasp swarm,etc),but he could outlive his units.Id prefer it if your hero would be quite weak and vulnerable alone,but therefore he could be added to a stack.This would mean that adding a magician that has just DD spells to a huge lvl 7 stack would make him almost invulnerable,but he would also become useless since the damage that stack would do would be much greater than anything he could cast.While doing this with a tactician would benefit your army greatly.

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 5 2006, 22:56

Not precisely, but you may have missed my point. Heroes aren't immortal. Their life is directly linked to their army's survivability. If your creatures get destroyed, it doesn't matter whether your hero can sling around chain lightning or not. By making heroes vulnerable, you turn the entire army into support for your hero rather than making your hero be support for your army. I never really found it unbalanced in Heroes 1-3 that you had to target a hero's creatures instead of the hero themselves. I'm hard-pressed to understand what the grievance is in reverting to that system rather than Heroes IV.


I agree, the system is balanced the way it is, and it brings back the old spirit of heroes, which is essential, in my opinion.

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Postby Fyl » Feb 7 2006, 22:59

before H4 there was no possible compairson between having the hero on the BF or not because only one option had been implemented in H1-3

they wanted to change something in H4 which more than half didn't like, now they (other 'they' :) ) are going back a few steps to get between H3 and H4 (or so they hope) but I also find this compromise to be worse than any of the other two options, I would have rather spent time to balance better the H4 implementation

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Postby grumpy_dwarf » Feb 8 2006, 0:10

I may only be an average player, but the might class prior to IV was either tough or boring since non-magical heroes had nothing to do once battles started. I liked the idea in IV to bring the heroes (especially those ones) into battles, but alas they were too weak initially and too strong at the end. It sure was fun having the mixture of Life, Death, Nature, Chaos, and Order all casting different spells all within the same battle....

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Postby val-gaav » Feb 8 2006, 2:18

Heroes in combat are a reason for me not to buy this game ... simple
(so it's good that h4 horror is not part og h5:) )

When I heard that in h4 heroes will be active I wasn't happy ... Yes I wasn't happy even before I played it.


I like the initiative and the fact that hero has it's own speed in h5 .... but I do not like the fact that he has this mana costless attack (holy charge etc.) ...
I agree, the system is balanced the way it is, and it brings back the old spirit of heroes, which is essential, in my opinion.

I agree ... hero off combat are the spirit of HoMM series ... for me at least.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 8 2006, 12:00

val-gaav wrote:I agree ... hero off combat are the spirit of HoMM series ... for me at least.


It's good to see that heroes outside of combat is all that represents the "spirit" of HoMM! :rolleyes:
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Postby val-gaav » Feb 8 2006, 13:13

Not all, there are some other things too :) (like creature stacks for egzample) ... but .. it's just that without it HoMM is no longer HoMM ... SO yes it's important not to change it ...

And there is a lot TBS that has active hero (disciples, AoW)... here HoMM was special with this aspect .

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 8 2006, 14:03

Agreed with val-gaal, there is a point where you have to stop with the new features and think how to improve which is already there.

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Re: Heroes on battlefield

Postby Thelonious » Feb 8 2006, 14:33

DaemianLucifer wrote:Well lots of people suggested it even before they started to work on HV.But did anybody listen?Noo,they have their own smart ideas.Why listen to the fans?Theyre here just to buy the game,and nothing more!


Well I don't see why a publisher would care abou tanything else. Why would a publisher put loads of energy in a game whilst a crappier game will give the same sales?
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Re: Heroes on battlefield

Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 8 2006, 14:40

Thelonious wrote:Well I don't see why a publisher would care abou tanything else. Why would a publisher put loads of energy in a game whilst a crappier game will give the same sales?


Well its not like a crappier game will give them more money.If HI was bad,how many people wouldve bought the second part?And the third?And the fourth?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 8 2006, 15:00

Infiltrator wrote:Agreed with val-gaal, there is a point where you have to stop with the new features and think how to improve which is already there.


Well heroes on the BF did lead to ignoring creatures, which is why personaly I wouldn't want them back on it. But I don't want to go back to the H3 way where spells where a must and Magic heroes gave almost the same Atk/Def as Might heroes of the same lvl while having way better spell capabilities.
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Postby chaosgorgon » Feb 9 2006, 6:47

actually there are resources, ideas and ways to put heroes in battlefield and finish with a funny and balanced feature, but the ppl that cant imagine such solutions just say "no that isnt the heroes feeling" ;|

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Postby val-gaav » Feb 9 2006, 10:25

chaosgorgon wrote: but the ppl that cant imagine such solutions just say "no that isnt the heroes feeling" ;|

Actually I can imagine many solutions, and many of them could work.
I just don't want them in this game. As I said I hated the idea from the very begining.

And it's not that i hate active heros . I enjoyed them in AoW , but NOT in heroes.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 9 2006, 12:28

val-gaav wrote:
chaosgorgon wrote:
And it's not that i hate active heros . I enjoyed them in AoW , but NOT in heroes.


But as it stands now it's more Heroes of Magic and less Might. I wish they would do something that would make it worth having a hero that has NO spells.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 9 2006, 15:35

They did. Haven has Holy Charge, Prayer, Inferno has Consume(Explode) Corpse, Demonic Strike, Demonic Fire and the Ranger has Imbue arrow, Multishot and Snipe dead, all of which are their racial abilities and require no mage guild to be built.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 9 2006, 15:45

Which are basicaly Spells that require no mana. And you can learn lvl 1&2 spells anyway. And 40 spells are still better that 2 abilities.
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Postby chaosgorgon » Feb 9 2006, 16:43

agree, that stuff is basically skills with nice animations

anyway i thing that the best solution would have been to make an balanced option, i mean tho chose if u want ur heroes in the battlefield of if u want to keep them casting out of the battle, but not to make such heroes as complete meleers (but also could die in the battlefield if u dont take out before they actually die in the field , wow, im confused, lol), but most a support unit (increase of moral, luck, auras and other skills) and a unit with very special attacks (fear, entagle, mass hits, etc), with nice hp and defence, but poor attack, the victory condition could be if all the creatures -not including heroes- die u lose

but the devs never analyse a mid solution they went to the H3 system with speciall spells -no mana spells- to each hero

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Feb 9 2006, 16:54

Like Ive already suggested,asigning heroes to stacks would be a perfect solution.Then we could have a caster(uses spells),a tactician(boosts the whole army,or just stacks in his radius),and a warior(boost just the stack hes in,but considerably).And whats with everyone being able to learn spells again?And with every town having lvl 5 mage guild?Wheres the might from the title?Why dont they rename the game to Heroes of Speed and Magic?Or better yet:Heroes of Insanely Fast Battles On Ridiculously Small Battlefields and Magic That Even The Mostly Magically Untalented Hero Can Lear In Any Town No Matter How Much Might Oriented It Is(Or HoIFBORSB&MTETMMUHCLIATNMHMMOII for short)? :disagree: :disagree: :disagree:

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Re: Heroes on battlefield

Postby Thelonious » Feb 9 2006, 18:31

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Thelonious wrote:Well I don't see why a publisher would care abou tanything else. Why would a publisher put loads of energy in a game whilst a crappier game will give the same sales?


Well its not like a crappier game will give them more money.If HI was bad,how many people wouldve bought the second part?And the third?And the fourth?


Sure it will, if then game would be perfect, who'd buy a sequel? You'd have enough with the original game...

But really, if a gaming company can make the game with less features, and still price it the same, they will do it.

DaemianLucifer wrote:Why dont they rename the game to Heroes of Speed and Magic?Or better yet:Heroes of Insanely Fast Battles On Ridiculously Small Battlefields and Magic That Even The Mostly Magically Untalented Hero Can Lear In Any Town No Matter How Much Might Oriented It Is(Or HoIFBORSB&MTETMMUHCLIATNMHMMOII for short)? :disagree: :disagree: :disagree:


Or even shorter: HoMM V - Heroes of Movement and Magic Very-fast
Grah!


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