Proposals for next patch

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Metathron
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Unread postby Metathron » 10 Feb 2008, 21:34

Very thorough post, Mlai, lots of shrewd observations.:applause: I agree with most of your changes. A few comments:
Both Daughters =
Added Cleansing spell (10 mana cost, advanced level, same as Zealot). No change to their base mana (Sky has 12, Earth has 9).
I wouldn't want both daughters to have cleansing because I would prefer to keep the distinction of earth being the more battle-oriented and sky, with chain lightning and now cleansing, the more magic-oriented one. Plus, it seems the majority of players are picking the earth daughters as it is (and with good reason, IMHO), so cleansing only for sky would tilt this balance a bit.
Foul Wyvern =
Added Crippling Wound (what the dwarven spearmen have).
This sounds interesting, but why not simply increase the effect of poison?
Blood Fury vs Sister =
Fury DEF 3 -> 4
Sister DEF 4 -> 3
I don't know why this is necessary, the sisters have the advantage of hp and defense, whereas the furies have higher initiative and damage, so seems pretty balanced to me. I think that in the Dungeon creature choices most people chose the sisters, whereas I opted for the furies. I still can't see how the sisters are better (though I will choose them for diversity's sake), because with Dungeon I'm gonna wanna attack as fast and furious as possible, and will try to avoid my level 2 unit being hit at all costs, and the extra 5 or however many hp will not mean that much. So, with the added +1 defense, I would pick the furies even more gladly. Ah, well.
Grim vs Brisk Raiders =
Brisk wheeling attack 0.25x power -> 0.35x power.
Brisk Raider ATT 12->13, DEF 9->8
Still seems insufficient; wouldn't pick them over the Grims. Perhaps 50% power? Or how about increasing their speed by 1 so that :down: can come into play more easily?
BTW, ppl should already know this - by circling an enemy, a B.Raider can hit an enemy with a drive-by attack and then hit the same enemy for the proper attack.
I've actually never thought of it like that. :x

Thanks, will try it out!
Sprite =
(Wasp Swarm None->Basic)

Wasp Swarm with mastery of None means you just wasted your Sprite's turn. To prevent unstoppable Sprite Wasp Swarm rush, delay Sprite building upgrade by requiring some prerequisite(s).
Wait, first you say that a sprite wastes her turn by casting wasp swarm and then you go on by explaining how you would like to see the unstoppable wasp swarm rush be prevented?

The sprite is already arguably the best level 1 unit and, though certainly a considerable nuisance, the two wasp swarms each neutral stack casts are not uber-powerful. Giving them basic mastery of the spell would be giving them more power which they do not need, not by a long shot.

Unless you are concerned about mid to late game, where the dryad becomes a more desirable pick due to symbiosis with the treants and increasing the power of the sprites' wasp swarm efficiency would enable them to keep more of an edge? The mind does boggle.:creative:
War vs Wind Dancer =
War ATT 5 -> 6
Wind ATT 6 -> 5
War DMG 3-5 -> 4-6
Wind DMG 4-6 -> 3-5
Seems like the Wind Dancer is underpowered this way. The only thing he has going for him is the agility special, whereas the War Dancers have the better stats and combo.
Now, Crystal will be a situational strategy. Easy strategy, but at least it's a bit more situational.
Could you explain? I tend to favour the Emeralds as it is due to the (relative) reliability of Acid Breath as opposed to the unreliable Prismatic Breath. Why would I want to pick the Emeralds after they've been weakened?
Arch Mage vs Battle Mage =
Switch DEF 10<->9
Switch HP 30<->29
Battle Mage DMG 7-7 -> 7-8
First of all, let me say that the way Nival has changed some alternative creatures' statistics by taking away 1 HP really gets on my nerves for some reason. :bugsquash:

Secondly, I would not pick even your improved Battle Mages. Like I said earlier in this thread, Archmages have Fireball, Righteous Might and a stronger Fist of Wrath AND they decrease your hero's spell cost by 25%. I'd want a bit more damage out of the Battle Mages for them to become a viable choice. Perhaps 7-10 damage and +1 to attack?

I'm not sure about your Storm Titans, I'd have to see them in battle to make up my mind, but I almost welcome any change to this non-dynamic duo and yours would certainly bring a breath of fresh air.

Some other changes I think might be unnecessary, e.g. Mountain Guards and Whitebear Riders. Even though a lot of people prefer the Shieldguards and Blackbears (see the "Fortress creature choices" thread), good points have been raised in favour of the "whitebeards", so again, if they got bonuses to their stats, I would pick them all the more gladly.
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Unread postby Mlai » 11 Feb 2008, 01:52

I wouldn't want both daughters to have cleansing because I would prefer to keep the distinction of earth being the more battle-oriented and sky, with chain lightning and now cleansing, the more magic-oriented one. Plus, it seems the majority of players are picking the earth daughters as it is (and with good reason, IMHO), so cleansing only for sky would tilt this balance a bit.
Earth Daughters have base mana of 9. So in order to use Cleansing, first it must kill a Gob. This means an enemy Dark Hero who casts Frenzy on 1st turn will have that ability work at least once. Sky Daughter is necessary for better vs-Dark protection.
2ndly, Stronghold's extremely susceptible to Dark. This means if only Sky has Cleansing, then Earth will never get used when fighting certain factions.
This sounds interesting, but why not simply increase the effect of poison?
Because it's not moddable. These are changes from my personal balance mod.
I don't know why this is necessary, the sisters have the advantage of hp and defense, whereas the furies have higher initiative and damage, so seems pretty balanced to me. I think that in the Dungeon creature choices most people chose the sisters, whereas I opted for the furies. I still can't see how the sisters are better (though I will choose them for diversity's sake), because with Dungeon I'm gonna wanna attack as fast and furious as possible, and will try to avoid my level 2 unit being hit at all costs, and the extra 5 or however many hp will not mean that much. So, with the added +1 defense, I would pick the furies even more gladly. Ah, well.
1 point of DEF is irrelevant in late game, so this only applies to early creeping. The tiny longevity buff makes Furies just a bit better for creeping with the low-birth-rate Dungeon creatures.
Still seems insufficient; wouldn't pick them over the Grims. Perhaps 50% power? Or how about increasing their speed by 1 so that :down: can come into play more easily?
I don't know. I try not to do overbuffs.
I've actually never thought of it like that. :x
Thanks, will try it out!
Unfortunately, unmodded Brisks are so lackluster even this little technique can't save it.
Wait, first you say that a sprite wastes her turn by casting wasp swarm and then you go on by explaining how you would like to see the unstoppable wasp swarm rush be prevented?
No, I mean I don't want an unstoppable wasp rush abuse birthed from buffing the spell mastery. Therefore in my personal mod, I made the sprite upgrade building require a higher town level, as well as that blooming trees add-on.
The sprite is already arguably the best level 1 unit and, though certainly a considerable nuisance, the two wasp swarms each neutral stack casts are not uber-powerful. Giving them basic mastery of the spell would be giving them more power which they do not need, not by a long shot.
However, mastery of None means the spell is a waste of turn.
Unless you are concerned about mid to late game, where the dryad becomes a more desirable pick due to symbiosis with the treants and increasing the power of the sprites' wasp swarm efficiency would enable them to keep more of an edge? The mind does boggle.:creative:
Parity between alternates is my biggest concern for my personal mod.
Seems like the Wind Dancer is underpowered this way. The only thing he has going for him is the agility special, whereas the War Dancers have the better stats and combo.
The Agility special is godly.
Could you explain? I tend to favour the Emeralds as it is due to the (relative) reliability of Acid Breath as opposed to the unreliable Prismatic Breath. Why would I want to pick the Emeralds after they've been weakened?
I'm of the camp who feel Prismatics are much better.
Secondly, I would not pick even your improved Battle Mages. Like I said earlier in this thread, Archmages have Fireball, Righteous Might and a stronger Fist of Wrath AND they decrease your hero's spell cost by 25%. I'd want a bit more damage out of the Battle Mages for them to become a viable choice. Perhaps 7-10 damage and +1 to attack?
Battle Mages become pretty good with Artificer. I try not to overbuff.
I'm not sure about your Storm Titans, I'd have to see them in battle to make up my mind, but I almost welcome any change to this non-dynamic duo and yours would certainly bring a breath of fresh air.
It's pretty wicked. Admittedly I just like the hilarity of the Big Electric Foot.
Some other changes I think might be unnecessary, e.g. Mountain Guards and Whitebear Riders. Even though a lot of people prefer the Shieldguards and Blackbears (see the "Fortress creature choices" thread), good points have been raised in favour of the "whitebeards", so again, if they got bonuses to their stats, I would pick them all the more gladly.
Common opinion appears to be that Shieldguards and Blackbears are better.

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Unread postby parcaleste » 11 Feb 2008, 05:14

Mlai wrote:... Because it's not moddable. These are changes from my personal balance mod...
You have made that Cripple Wound mod? Can you post it somewhere, please?

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Unread postby Mlai » 11 Feb 2008, 05:46

I can post my personal balance mod. But the changelog consists of everything I wrote in that big post above.

I don't have a mod where the only change is giving Foul Wyvern the Crippling Wound ability, if that's what you're asking for.

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Unread postby magnomagus » 11 Feb 2008, 09:31

I think the fleeing and the performance of the Ai are top priorities.
For balance i would like to see the invisibililty changed, Although I haven't got a good idea how. Also the jump distance from the horned leapers could be a little shorter (if the horned demons are unchanged)

I don't understand why you people are whining so much about the battle mages because magic damper is a very useful ability and in late game battle mages are definately a better choice.

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Unread postby Metathron » 11 Feb 2008, 10:52

magnomagus wrote:I don't understand why you people are whining so much about the battle mages because magic damper is a very useful ability and in late game battle mages are definately a better choice.
I don't see how it is useful except in battles against mages, which is extremely limited. It's inferior to the Energy Channel of the Archmage, too. The +2 attack may make them slightly preferable in late game when you don't have the room to split your Archmagi anymore, but you lose 1 defense, 1 hp and Righteous Might which can really improve the attack of, say, your Titans. The Archmage can also cast Cleansing at Expert level, whereas the Battle Mage only at advanced.
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Unread postby tb5841 » 11 Feb 2008, 11:23

Energy Channel is pretty useless for a Wizard, to be honest. Being able to place units around Battle Mages is very useful once shooting becomes more powerful than spellcasting.

For me, the most important change would be to fix the bug where TotE spells don't appear in half the maps.

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Unread postby magnomagus » 11 Feb 2008, 12:40

I don't see how it is useful except in battles against mages, which is extremely limited. It's inferior to the Energy Channel of the Archmage, too.
It is now clear to me that you don't understand how the damper ability works. It doesn't protect against spelldamage or any damage done by enemy heroes or creatures. It protects against the NORMAL attack damage from the battle mage itself. This means: you can place golems or gargoyles in front of them to protect them against melee attackers. With archmages you always have the problem it damages it's own friendly creatures when using it's normal attack. The magic damper prevents this from happening. So in late game battle mages are 100% better. Energy channel is no longer usefull because wizards have tons of knowledge and the spelldamage will be inferior to the normal attack damage.
For me, the most important change would be to fix the bug where TotE spells don't appear in half the maps.
The problem is I think the download, that will weight at least 100MB. They should have fixed it in the initial release.

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Unread postby Metathron » 11 Feb 2008, 13:06

This creature completely defends all neighbouring friendly stacks from distant mage attacks.
Distant mage attacks? Eh?

Coupled with the fact that the creature still has the Magic Attack ability aka
Creature hits all creatures in the line of attack with its shot, including friendly ones
Can you really blame me for misunderstanding?

So all Magic Dampen does is negate the bolded part, right? This would not be half bad were it not for the 'neighbouring' bit, which means you can't send your genies or gargoyles forth to attack for fear of getting into the Battle Mages' line of fire, which is the same thing as with the Archmage. Hardly worth it.

For me, the Archmage is still the obviously better choice in early & mid game, and just as good as the Battle Mage in late game.
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Unread postby magnomagus » 11 Feb 2008, 13:44

Can you really blame me for misunderstanding?
I surely cannot blame you, and that was not what I said. Some ingame descriptions have never been correct (like swift striker for example) and a lot are not sufficient. It is true it only protects the neighboring creatures and in a lot of occassions I would pick the archmages in early game too.
But I think both choices are equally interesting, so no rebalance is needed.
Gargoyles for example do hardly any damage so in some occasions it can be a better decision to let them block the way to the mages.

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Unread postby Mlai » 11 Feb 2008, 15:21

While I agree with Magno et al regarding the Battle Mage, I still feel he needed a token rebalance.

As said, Archmage is better in early/mid game, Battle Mage in late game (provided you have a huge stack).

So, why the heck does Battle Mage have less HP and less DEF??? He's gonna need those things in late game. Considering that the Arch has substantially better magic, Battle should not be at parity with Arch physically, with 1 point more here and 1 point less there. Battle should be superior physically overall.

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Unread postby Warmonger » 11 Feb 2008, 16:51

Change the animation of the Hive as now it tooks ages for it to cast the spell.
Last edited by Warmonger on 11 Feb 2008, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Metathron » 11 Feb 2008, 16:56

Nest? Do you mean Summon Hive?

If so, I agree, the wait is too long.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Feb 2008, 12:07

* Make town defensive towers animation transpire faster... waiting for them to shoot is the most annoying part of any siege... they made me foam at the mouth during all those failed Biara fights in TotE... where less annoying once i had Expert LM and Mass Cleansing.

* Change Cleansing from having a lower chance to work if your hero is low lvl to reducing the time the negative effects last by the same % it currently has to succeed.

* Let caravans be able to transport already purchased units as long as they are in town... and patch caravans into H5 vanilla already.


Storm Titans: make them able to summon the thunderstorm again after it expires or somewhere new canceling the old one and change some stats (lower max dmg, more init and life).
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Unread postby okrane » 12 Feb 2008, 13:46

Storm Titans: make them able to summon the thunderstorm again after it expires or somewhere new canceling the old one and change some stats (lower max dmg, more init and life).
Also rename them Thunder Titans ... :D

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Feb 2008, 14:36

Sure, if they want to pay me royalties let them... :devil:
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Unread postby desmod » 12 Feb 2008, 15:42

hey, what about Pandora's boxes? and better imbued maps too.

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Unread postby Ya5MieL » 12 Feb 2008, 18:30

ThunderTitan wrote:
* Let caravans be able to transport already purchased units as long as they are in town... and patch caravans into H5 vanilla already.
Caravans were a HoF feature, so it was never intended to be retrospectively implemented in vanilla.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Feb 2008, 20:24

It's still annoying when you want to play the original campaigns...


Oh, and the Orcs need more Shouts... maybe even one with a 50% chance of dispelling enemy spells (limit it in that if it works on one creature the next creature fails it).
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Unread postby Ohma » 12 Feb 2008, 22:15

I think something needs to be changed with the rage ability, maybe it's just me but I've yet to win against a barbarian opponent, and it seems partially due to their ability to 1. boost their stats waaaay up via rage 2. absorb damage without losing an appreciable amount of rage 3. gain just as many spell points as any other hero and use them to cast war cries.

I think that just changing rage so that creatures lose a more significant amount of it when taking damage would help a lot. As it is whenever I've fought a barbarian army of comparable size to mine (I've played several different sides against barbs) I find that their rage levels just keep rising no matter how much damage I do, or spells I cast (and it doesn't help that barbs already get skills to lower the effectiveness of spells, nor that creatures can absorb damage with rage).
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