Academy creature choices

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Metathron
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Academy creature choices

Postby Metathron » Jan 12 2008, 17:19

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1. Repair is better than Sabotage, but I choose Saboteurs about 85% of the time due to their much greater stats. I might appreciate the Masters more when I actually decide to include golems in my army.

2. Both are solid in their own ways (i.e. as non-attacking creatures), so about 50 - 50. Usually Obsidians against casters and Marble against others, though I tend to stick with my upgrade.

3. Steel Golem 55%. Haven't experienced the wonders of the enchanted armour and magnetism yet.

4. Archmage 85%. I can see a use for Battle Mages in late game where you're likely to have only one stack and the arcmages spell damage would be too small anyway, but with only +2 Attack over the Archmages, the Battle Mages are a feeble choice. And what about Magic Dampen? That's supposed to protect nearby allies from distant Mage attack? If 'Mage' was replaced by 'casters' this might have some use, but like this? Pretty bland. If the Battle Mages are to be a viable choice to the Archmages' Fireball and Righteous Might, the former need to have their damage increased, I should think (perhaps 7 - 9/10?) and maybe their attack by +1/2 more?

5. Djinn Sultan 60%

6. Rakshasa Raja 60% due to no retal. Almost always I will build their dwelling last (even after titans) and will not have enough of them to be able to afford attacking with the Kshatras and suffering the enemy's retaliation.

7. Nival should enter the Guinness Book of World Records for the least amount of time and effort invested into making interesting and viable alternatives. Congratulations, you lazy bunch of slackers!
Choose either 50% of the time.
Their specials are really lackluster. The Titan's Call Lightning only does 30 damage per unit, but Storm Caller seems even worse to me. It does 10 damage per Storm Titan per turn and lasts for 3 turns, so in the end it does the same damage as Call Lightning but is worse because it is divided between 3 turns, and the shooting penalty is 1% per Storm Titan. Oh dear lord, appallingly bad!
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Postby aaelgr » Jan 12 2008, 18:01

I often go for the Saboteurs for the better stats. If you could use Repair more than once then Masters would possibly be preferable (using Sabotage continually on a neutral stack of Golems is fun!).
I always use Obsidian Gargoyles, as the Immunities it has are much more useful than having a small number of spells do extra damage to units around it.
I've never used Magnetic Golems for some reason, probably the fact that you lose Attack and Defence to get a boost to Initiative (God I love March of the Golems! Artificial Glory can be handy too).
Archmages without question. If, like you suggested, the Battle Mage either reduced spell damage to nearby units or had an Aura of Magic Resistance like Unicorns do then they'd be much more useful.
One of the few hard choices I feel. Random spellcasting can come in useful at times, though it does depend on what spells are cast. Wheel of Fortune is something I've never used, as when I do choose them it's for the extra health and higher Magic Proof %age (I think they're Immune To Air too?).
What is Whirlwind? I've always gone for Rajas (when I eventually get around to getting Rakshasas), though the Kshatra is faster and a little stronger.
I completely agree with you about the Titan/Stormcaller choice. Neither special is particularly great, so it usually ends up depending on what mood I'm in (and which one looks better at the time).

The Academy alternates are (in my opinion) the worse ones. With the other towns I usually end up with a mix of original and new upgrades, but with this town I find that hardly any of the new ones are (much) better than the poor original. I found it hard to play as Academy in H5 and HOF, and these alternate upgrades haven't made it any easier...

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Postby Mirez » Jan 13 2008, 12:35

aaelgr wrote:I always use Obsidian Gargoyles, as the Immunities it has are much more useful than having a small number of spells do extra damage to units around it.

try elemental gargoyle + circel of winter ;)

I go master gremlins once my golems actually start dieing in fights (and like you said sabotage is fun vs neutral golems)
If my heroew knows Circel of winter I go elemental, otherwise obsidian
I only go magnetic golems vs dungeon, sylvan can deal some hardcore destructive-magic damage aswell but that's why I use sabotage on their ballista
I pretty much always go archmage (though I might make 2 or 2 battle mages when I'm gunna fight neutral mages)
Djinn Vizier, if it were only for the 5 more hp, random blessing isn't that good while wheel of fortune can be quite handy
Rakshasa, depends on what I'm fighting against, I'd rather have no retaliation when I have to defend against dragons and I'd rather have whirlwind attack against the turtling haven
Storm Titan always, call storm can cripple his archers for a few turns while call lightning is pretty useless
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Re: Academy creature choices

Postby Titanus » Jan 13 2008, 12:49

Metathron wrote:1. Repair is better than Sabotage, but I choose Saboteurs about 85% of the time due to their much greater stats. I might appreciate the Masters more when I actually decide to include golems in my army.

Masters all the way! Saboteurs' +3 attack and +1 defence compared to Masters is a trivial substitute for the usefulness of Repair ability over Sabotage.

Metathron wrote:2. Both are solid in their own ways (i.e. as non-attacking creatures), so about 50 - 50. Usually Obsidians against casters and Marble against others, though I tend to stick with my upgrade.

Agreed here! By the way have you seen Marbles' Aura of Vulnerability work on themselves too (not only their neigbouring stacks)?

Metathron wrote:3. Steel Golem 55%. Haven't experienced the wonders of the enchanted armour and magnetism yet.

Steel Giolems 75%. Unlimited retaliation is too good to pass, unless you face Dungeon or the improved Sylvan with the addition of High Druids.

Metathron wrote:4. Archmage 85%. I can see a use for Battle Mages in late game where you're likely to have only one stack and the arcmages spell damage would be too small anyway, but with only +2 Attack over the Archmages, the Battle Mages are a feeble choice. And what about Magic Dampen? That's supposed to protect nearby allies from distant Mage attack? If 'Mage' was replaced by 'casters' this might have some use, but like this? Pretty bland. If the Battle Mages are to be a viable choice to the Archmages' Fireball and Righteous Might, the former need to have their damage increased, I should think (perhaps 7 - 9/10?) and maybe their attack by +1/2 more?

Almost totally agreed! In my mod I've changed Battle Mages so that they have 10 damage (my Archmages having 8, among other modifications); this way I have a hard time choosing between the 2 of them, while Battle Mages' role is more distinct.

Metathron wrote:5. Djinn Sultan 60%

Djin Vizier 65%. The fact that Djin Sultans are likely to cast the same spell twice on the same creature render their special unreliable. Better HP more spell protection and a decent and more reliable special ensure their better survivability and usefulness (as they are now). Djin Sultans could become a more viable alternative if they were more attack oriented, keeping their HoF damage (16-22).

Metathron wrote:6. Rakshasa Raja 60% due to no retal. Almost always I will build their dwelling last (even after titans) and will not have enough of them to be able to afford attacking with the Kshatras and suffering the enemy's retaliation.

50% each! When I upgrade them they are already enough. Whirlwind may become a trmendous asset if you choose whom you attack (in conjunction with neigboring stacks) wisely.

Metathron wrote:7. Nival should enter the Guinness Book of World Records for the least amount of time and effort invested into making interesting and viable alternatives. Congratulations, you lazy bunch of slackers!

Too true!

Metathron wrote:Choose either 50% of the time! Their specials are really lackluster. The Titan's Call Lightning only does 30 damage per unit, but Storm Caller seems even worse to me. It does 10 damage per Storm Titan per turn and lasts for 3 turns, so in the end it does the same damage as Call Lightning but is worse because it is divided between 3 turns, and the shooting penalty is 1% per Storm Titan. Oh dear lord, appallingly bad!

Give Call Lightning and Call Storm 10 extra damage and you have 2 nice specials, particularly useful against high defence armies. In my mode I've followed a totally different approach regarding Storm Titans. I've made them an analogue of Thunder Thanes and no shooting ability, by zeroing their shots.

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Postby Dacarnix_ » Jan 13 2008, 23:40

1. Saboteur 90%. The +3 attack is great, but the +1 Initiative is what really pushes them over the top for me. Since Gremlins are typically targeted long before golems, Masters don't really impress me.

2. 50/50. I prefer the Obsidians for low-level heroes and the Elementals for high-level heroes.

3. 50/50. Unlimited Retaliation is great, but 9 Initiative versus a mere 7 is pretty significant.

4. Archmage 99%. The increased versatility, decreased hero spell cost, and +1 hp almost always beats out the minimal benefits of the Battle Mage for me.

5. Djinn Vizier 75%. I like the better hp and Magic Proof more than the better Atk/Def.

6. Rakshasa Kshatra 85%. The loss of No Enemy Retal is the kiss of death for the Vamp Princes for me, but it doesn't matter quite so much for the Kshatras due to Whirlwind. Just pick the "primary target" as something they can kill, and the secondary targets won't retaliate anyway.

7. 50/50. These are so similar it doesn't really matter. 10 damage in a 3x3 or 30 damage in a single square are quite comparable.

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Postby Mirez » Jan 14 2008, 15:34

man call storm >>>>>> call lightning
it makes a world of difference if the opponent has to walk their shooters to a different spot before they can attack
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby Metathron » Jan 14 2008, 16:13

It's that much better because of 1% range penalty per Storm Titan? I find that hard to believe. Unless, of course, if the AI is so silly as to waste turns to move the units out of the storm every time, regardless of its power.
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Postby Baduum » Jan 15 2008, 14:44

I havent seem any of you mention that the battle mages dont only protect your troops around them from other mages shots, but also their own - meaning you can turtle em up. Im sure most are aware of this.

(I still use archmages more.)
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Postby tb5841 » Jan 16 2008, 10:26

My favourite town :)

1) Saboteurs early on, Masters later

2) Elemental gargoyles every time (unless using Armageddon). I always get destructive magic with Academy now, which makes these my most useful units, their ability inflics so much damage! And they are still hard to kill. Aura of Elemental Vulnerability also works with Word of Light, which can be very useful.

3) Magnetic Golems. Use Mark of the Wizard well and you can constantly heal them while still hitting enemies. Archmagi can heal them as well - stand them next to Elemental Gargoyles and this is even more effective.

4) Archmagi, they do far more damage (and damage is not reliant on a wizard's poor attack skill) making them far better. Once your army reached a certain size, casting spells would always do less damage than shooting and so Battle Mages would be better, but I've never reached this point.

5) Djinn Viziers, for their survivability. Not an upgrade priority, or a purchasing one. In small numbers they are a good addition to an army, in large numbers they're a terrible waste of money

6) Rakshasha Rajas, I love the no-enemy-retaliation, and I think survivability is much more important than damage dealing here. Though the map is usually finished before I get to upgrade these.

7) Storm Titans are better, but there is so little in it that I usually still use the original Titans, just because I prefer the way they look.

I think Academy are the most powerful team (though my experience is biased because I mainly play small maps) and I think that some of their upgrades are phenomenal. They give Academy lots more playing-style options, and give a huge boost to destructive wizards. The main let-down is the new Titan, which isn't really any different - they should have put a powerful melee-unit here instead.

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Re: Academy creature choices

Postby Mlai » Jan 20 2008, 15:48

Titanus wrote:In my mod I've followed a totally different approach regarding Storm Titans. I've made them an analogue of Thunder Thanes and no shooting ability, by zeroing their shots.

I did the same thing but not as drastic as you.
I gave them 3 shots so that they have some freedom when targets of opportunity present themselves. But in addition to giving them Thunder Thanes' Stormstrike, I also gave them the Range Penalty so that they'll always do 1/2 damage max when shooting (and 1/4 damage at long range). This encourages them to stop shooting and start kicking.

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Postby Silpion » Jan 20 2008, 22:23

1. Gremlin Saboteur - Better damage
2. None - Don't like them
3. Depends on enemy hero
4. Archmage early, Battle Mage later
5. Djinn Vizier
6. Rakshasa Kshatra - More damage
7. No preference

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Postby tb5841 » Jan 21 2008, 15:25

Forgoing Gargoyle upgrades is a big mistake, they are by far the most useful Academy unit.

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Postby Silpion » Jan 21 2008, 16:15

Until now I nearly always skipped Gargoyles completely. But I haven't used destructive magic with Academy either... maybe I'll try it next time.

Are the elemental Gargoyles affected by their own aura?

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Postby Mirez » Jan 21 2008, 18:18

Silpion wrote:Until now I nearly always skipped Gargoyles completely. But I haven't used destructive magic with Academy either... maybe I'll try it next time.

Are the elemental Gargoyles affected by their own aura?

I think so, but you should use circle of winter anyways, last game I played with academy there was no circle of winter in my mageguild (even with library) so I was like G*ddamit but then I found book of destructive magic (or something) and the evercold icile = raw pwnage I killed 17 hydras in 1 shot with it ;)
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby tb5841 » Jan 21 2008, 21:34

Sadly their own aura does affect them, making them a poor choice against Warlocks. It also works on other units you own, meaning that Magnetic Golems near them are healed even more by destructive spells.

Destructive Magic was a poor choice for Academy before TotE, but the new units and the changes to Mark of the Wizard make it a brilliant choice now.

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Postby Silpion » Jan 21 2008, 21:51

Changes to Mark of the Wizard? I seem to have missed this, can you please write them down or post a link to where the changes are listed?

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Postby tb5841 » Jan 22 2008, 0:19

Area of Effect spells (e.g. Fireball, Circle of Winter, Fire Trap and others) work with Mark of the Wizard now, whereas before TotE they did not. So you can cast Circle of Winter or Fireball twice at once, making them far more useful than they were previously.

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Postby Silpion » Jan 22 2008, 11:38

Thanks! That's amazing news. On my next hot-seat game I'll definitely choose academy + destruction magic. Sounds like a lot of fun. :D

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Postby Mirez » Jan 22 2008, 15:23

Silpion wrote:Thanks! That's amazing news. On my next hot-seat game I'll definitely choose academy + destruction magic. Sounds like a lot of fun. :D

and thank god you can do mark of the wizard on your gargoyles and when you cast circel of winter it'll be cast around him ;)
treants are dendrosexual 0_o


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