Factions Balance

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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RustedSorrow
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Postby RustedSorrow » Mar 17 2008, 11:37

Ok, I accept that example was according to a situation that would be very rare. There are thousands of possibilities: I agree with you on that as well.

When I observe carefully, I do agree that demons are weaker. If a demon hero and a sylvan one go head to head having nearly the same stats and a fully built army, then the elf hero has more chances of winning as the Avenger ability tips the balance in his favor. And that insanely powerful luck is nasty as well.

Demons racial ability isn't that impressive. Creatures waste at least one turn in gating giving the opponent's creatures one turn advantage and can deal massive amounts of damage(unless you have Urgash's Call but then you'll have to assume that the elf hero has Nature's Luck as well). So how will you resolve this problem? Do your altered stats really improve their overall performance on the battlefield? We can only tell once you make a mod.

One thing: I don't agree with you that you are reducing the power of Elves while increasing the power of demons. I don't think elves are really that great when the fight Haven, dark elves and necro. One mass confusion, then what can elves do eh? Rush with emerald dragons. If the units are nicely arranged, it won't be able to attack multiple stacks at once. It gives liches and skelly's a straight shot. Bye, bye dragons. Puppet master or frenzy now rule and his hero will be busy cleansing.

But what I am trying to emphasize is that Haven, Sylvan, Dark Elves(perhaps: depends too much on luck) and Necro are on equal footings. Academy and demons are definitely weaker. So instead of reducing the stats of elves, increase the power of Academy and Inferno.

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Factions Balance

Postby Titanus » Mar 19 2008, 10:10

okrane wrote:I never said you don't have experience. However, I think in order to do a patch of this type, the input of many more players is needed. A community of pro players must all give their opinions about what works and doesn't work in a faction.
And I am not saying that all changes are bad. There are some good things you did. However more players need to think about these before saying it's a good mod.


And that's what I've been wishing from day one! But all I want is well-constructed and supported arguments, not bursts of undocumented protestation (generally speaking). Now, let's comment on your case studies.

okrane wrote:About weakening strike:

So it weakens the enemy attack and defense by 4 and it's not cleansable. So, I'm thinking about a mid-game fight (week 4 for example.). You have, say 12 Green Dragons, some unicorns, no Treants more likely.

All you have to do is split your stack into 2 stacks of 6 green dragons and hit the enemy damage dealer (their level 7 mostly) with these two stacks. Due to high init and speed you are more likely to pull this off before even the enemy has a chance of retaliating. And basically their level 7 unit will now have the stats of a level 5...

This is just an example about what might happen. It can also bring weird strategies involving 4 stacks of dragons and one stack of unicorns in order to weaken the enemy and finish him with the unicorns. etc...


First of all, how on earth are you going to have 12 Green Dragons on week 4, because maths proves you wrong. Even if you built their building on day 1 (impossible) and you had already had a castle (impossible) your Dragons couldn't be more than 1+2+2+2=7. Of course there is the Diplomacy skill (IF you are offered Leadership and then IF you're offered Diplomacy), IF 1 out of 4 weeks was week of the Green Dragon, but how many would they join you with your petty 1-to-4-week-army? Possibly none! You could also argue that you took control of a high level dwelling that it actually produced and/or/only Green Dragons, hence increase your Dragons weekly production, but these are almost certainly guarded by high level neutrals. How do you find your chances? Because, I personally, find them non-existent!
If you talk about week 8 it's a closer deal, but again improbable, because how are you going to gather 12 Dragons and be able to buy them when you need money and resources (gold, wood, gems and crystals mainly) for so many other buildings (imperative to build Fort, Citadel and Castle, in order to reach these (I repeat) excessive numbers of Dragons (and I'm assuming you play on Heroic and nothing less), dwellings and creatures (obliged to buy them if you want to level up properly).
Then again, let's say that you manage to meet all those conditions and you face an enemy of equal power, controlled say by me. For starters, when I battle an enemy hero equal or superior to my hero I almost always use 6 or 7 stacks. How can you go up against 6-7 stacks when you have 3? Ok your initial attack with your first stack of Green Dragons may reduce the number of a 2-3 (and no more, given that a Sylvan's hero even by that week could very well have an attack rating of 5 or even less) of my level 7 units (let's be fair and say) out of 10-12, most probably in one stack, and drop their attack/defence by 4. It's the second assault with the second stack of 6 Green Dragons that will deal increased (unretaliated) damage, but is this damage enough to fell a whole stack of my tier 7 unit? Then what?
Your Unicorns won't be able to participate in the initial assault, due to their 7 speed, therefore they'll have to wait for the second turn. But what about the first turn of my 6-7 stacks? What do you think I'll do, am I going to sit around and watch you? With careful selection (to avoid as much as possible great losses) of my 2 stacks that will steal from your 2 stacks of Green Dragons the retaliations, I'll start pounding on you till your Dragons cease to constitute a serious threat by the time they will have (IF they have) the opportunity to play for the second time. Then your Unicorns would be alone, at the mercy of probably 5-6 of my stacks. Needless to say that my hero will have a lot less targets to focus on than your hero will.
What I want to say is that choosing to attack someone with substantially less stacks than usual isn't always a solution, unless that someone or something is considerably less powerful than you. Tier 7 creatures aren't the only important damage dealers in an army, as you obviously know.

okrane wrote:So the thing is, when thinking about balance you should consider all possible situations, early-game rushes, mid-game fights, end-game big battles, with different types of builds, because most likely you will not have your whole alignment when fighting your opponent.


That's exactly my goal, every faction to develop on more or less equal grounds, in every stage of the game. I don't have delusions of grandeur that only I have found the perfect balance and what everybody else says is crap; of course not. I repeat, any suggestion is very welcomed, as long as it's well documented! My belief though is that I have reached a much better (to the degree that is in my power of modification) balance than the producers of the game have, keeping in mind all the presuppositions that I've mentioned in previous posts. Don't get me wrong, I want to expand the prospects of the game (because, honestly, it has very solid foundations), not narrow them.

okrane wrote:I have seen all your posts and read them carefully. For example you haven't even thought about Stalkers. Right now they are the essential unit for Dungeon and you even boosted their growth. If you had really played the game as you imply, you would have clearly known what a skilled Dungeon player can do with just a handful of these. And you still improve them. I would have expected at least an initiative nerf in order to make it harder for dungeon to hit and run, etc....


The first part of your protestation, regarding their numbers, is (sorry to say it in such a way) out of the question! On one hand, 7 Stalkers aren't even close in power to 15, 20 or 25 upgraded level 1 creatures of any other faction (note also that half races are assisted by dwellings that further boost their level 1 units), while on the other hand, I've also enhanced quite many of them, for reasons I've already explained in each one's entry, so that they help their army better or/and make other tiers of their army help less than they used to.
However, a nerf of Stalkers' initiative (probably 11) isn't such a bad idea. The bane of each faction's expansion and development is when an important area is guarded by ranged units and most importantly, by casters. Dungeon has little problem with either of them, since only twice have I seen Stalkers to play second (on one occasion, after a stack of Archmages and on a separate occasion, after a stack of Arcane Archers). I'll test it and get back to you, along with some minor revisions and omissions I've neglected to mention in all factions I've analysed so far.

okrane wrote:Again, looking lower down, I see you made deep hydras regenerate 125hp per turn. I say, you don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever gotten 3 Deep Hydras from a mercenary camp? If you did, you know that with only these 3 hydras you can creep almost any low tier unit, with a SECONDARY Hero. Now, if you up their init and boost their regen, all I will have to do is keep on pressing "wait" to instantly win any battle..


Now you're overreacting! Let's take your points one by one.
1) What are the chances to find a mercenary camp unguarded by a high level creature? Because an experienced map-maker wouldn't make such a mistake as to let this building unprotected or put low tier creatures on their guard.
2) How much priority would you give to a mercenary camp...
a) early-game, when your army is still weak and you have loads of much more important stuff to do and you don't need to lose creatures just for fun (if we talk about a mild guard, because if they are heavily guarded you wouldn't even consider it)?
b) mid-game, when indeed it would become short of a 'priority' (because it never really is) and would be much easier to deal with their keepers, but another problem arises then... What are the chances that you bump into Deep Hydras and only? Simple maths will give us the answer: 3 (normal creatures, upgrades, alternate upgrades)*3 (tier4 - tier6)*8 (factions)=72 and 1/72=1.39%.............. and if I want to be generous I'll increase this percentage to 1.39*3=4.17% (in case you have already built Rattling Cavern, but then again you would already have been able to have Deep Hydras in your second hero). Tell me how do you find your chances?
But let's proceed with this way of thinking...
How much area around your town will you have cleared with your main hero early-game? Not much.
How much area around your town will you have cleared with your main hero mid-game? Probably all, but certainly all spots guarded by low level creatures.
Suppose we stick to the first case. In my second post I hinted that in my mode, neutrals on Heroic increase their weekly growth by 20%, instead of 10%, which is the case now. Do you now how much difference even week 2 makes? Even if you were unbelievably lucky to come across 3 Deep Hydras in an unguarded or mildly guarded refugee camp during say week 2 (and on condition you could afford buying them, because on top of that they're quite expensive), you would stand little chances with either hero against level 2 (or better, that depends) neutrals, having only 3 Deep Hydras in your army.
3) Warlocks are unlikely to get offered Light Magic as they level up (unlike Academy, Heaven, Fortress and Sylvan), whereas the Regeneration spell has reduced chances to appear in Dungeon's mage guild either.
4) Foul Hydras are clearly better upgrades than Deep Hydras, if the latter regenerate 30-50 hp each turn.
5) Pao Kais are tremendously better than Foul Wyverns (another creature that regenerates), given that the former with their Scavenger skill may resurrect dozens of creatures, while Foul Wyverns struggle to raise even a third of a creature.
I hope I have covered you.

okrane wrote:And you make Seraphs have Life Drain, which I won't even start on commenting.


Oh come on now! You are acting like you have never cast Vampirism on your level 7 unit in your life! Is it balanced then? How much different is Seraphs' life drain to Archangels' Resurrection? Aren't both 5th level spells? Can you envisage how much more vulnerable and prone to huge damage fluctuations Seraphs are? Bless them and they shine; curse them and they mean almost nothing! In the end, is life drain more imbalanced than the abomination called Divine Guidance?

okrane wrote:Anyway, the bottom line is you should be working on a crazy mod, because, by all means this is not balance. I mean, you changed all creatures by so much that it would be a miracle that the game would remain remotely balanced.


Then a miracle it is...! :D

okrane wrote:What I meant by that is simply that stats are not the only think to take into account. But obviously you haven't put any thought into what I was saying and started flaming all the way.


You know, we play the same game...

okrane wrote:As the game is right now, i.e. with the current building costs, Dungeon will almost NEVER get Black Dragons before the final fight (provided one plays the usual ToH multiplayer maps, for example). So no matter what you will do to the BD stats, it will be more than irrelevant. Emeralds however are really easy to get, and a skilled player will get the building week2 and the upgrade soon after. So basically, buffing both BD and Emeralds will lead to a relative buff to Sylvan over Dungeon in the mid game: which is crap, because we already know how strong Sylvan is late-game, and we don't want to make their lives even easier getting there.


Never? NEVER? Are you serious? For starters, I disagree with your playstyle, but that's just a different town building approach and as long as you are satisfied with it, be my guest and use it.
However, I find it highly doubtful that you can build Green Dragons' dwelling in week 2 ON HEROIC! Even if you succeed in it when are you going to build your Capitol, your other dwellings, your Castle? Doesn't your building strategy hamper your overall power? What if your Green Dragons outnumber by 2-3 (because you certainly won't have more) Shadow Dragons (whose dwelling I build on week 4, but I've built every other base dwelling, the first two upgraded dwellings, Capitol and Castle in the meantime), while you are significantly short on every other tier and money?
And by the way, I consider Dungeon probably the best mid-game (along with Necropolis), since its racial has already been up and running by then, whereas Sylvan's racial is always restrained by the kind of creatures that have been previously killed and on condition its hero has returned to his town to adapt to the enemy. Has he been lucky and/or powerful enough to fight Dungeon's most powerful creatures during the previous days, so that he adds them to his Avenger list? How many of them will he be able to add, 1, 2, 3? Lots of parameters. So don't get disappointed; Dungeon has absolutely no reason to fear Sylvan up to mid-game.

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Factions Balance

Postby Titanus » Mar 19 2008, 11:43

RustedSorrow wrote:When I observe carefully, I do agree that demons are weaker. If a demon hero and a sylvan one go head to head having nearly the same stats and a fully built army, then the elf hero has more chances of winning as the Avenger ability tips the balance in his favor. And that insanely powerful luck is nasty as well.

Demons racial ability isn't that impressive. Creatures waste at least one turn in gating giving the opponent's creatures one turn advantage and can deal massive amounts of damage(unless you have Urgash's Call but then you'll have to assume that the elf hero has Nature's Luck as well). So how will you resolve this problem? Do your altered stats really improve their overall performance on the battlefield? We can only tell once you make a mod.


Don't underestimate Demons! Sylvan's tremendous asset against any other faction (which is initiative) is neutralised or even surpassed only by Demons. Add in the equation that they can reach the enemy with 3-4 creatures (depending on whether they use Horned Grunts and/or Arch Devils) in their first assault and you have a fearsome faction. However, when Sylvan's racial starts to kick in against the low defence Demon troops....be ware!
Then again, what if Demons choose to gate with a couple out of those 3-4 fast units? surely they lose their advantage of their excellent initial assault but on the other hand they get strengthened as the battle goes on. How much damage is Sylvan going to deal before gated creatures start acting? Again myriads of possibilities!

RustedSorrow wrote:One thing: I don't agree with you that you are reducing the power of Elves while increasing the power of demons. I don't think elves are really that great when the fight Haven, dark elves and necro. One mass confusion, then what can elves do eh? Rush with emerald dragons. If the units are nicely arranged, it won't be able to attack multiple stacks at once. It gives liches and skelly's a straight shot. Bye, bye dragons. Puppet master or frenzy now rule and his hero will be busy cleansing..


NOBODY is safe when they go up against Heaven and Necropolis! Training has to be limiting as to how many Paladins/Champions are trained each week, while Shrine of the Netherworld must have a cap as to how many creatures it can transform.
In addition, Sylvan has a trait that no other faction has; abundant Magic Resistance, courtesy of Silver Unicorns. If you place carefully your ranged units, you'll see how difficult it is to cast a Mass Dark spell on ALL of them. In the event they get confused, just Mass cleanse them and your turn may come faster than your enemy's turn (which by the way is unacceptable, as long as you don't have Sorcery skill, but that's another issue). All is a matter of priorities; do you want a crucial unit of yours Puppet Mastered, so that you cleanse the confused creatures first or the other way around? Do you have time for both of them, due to Puppet Master's characteristic to delay a controlled creature's turn? Do you have Magic Immunity so that you are done with the perpetual Frenzies and Puppet Masters and you can settle for a delay of cleansing? Do you have a healing tent? But those questions apply to almost all factions, not only Sylvan.

RustedSorrow wrote:But what I am trying to emphasize is that Haven, Sylvan, Dark Elves(perhaps: depends too much on luck) and Necro are on equal footings. Academy and demons are definitely weaker. So instead of reducing the stats of elves, increase the power of Academy and Inferno.


Inferno is quite well now and boy....wait till you see what I have prepared for the Mages :D


parcaleste wrote:I still think you should do something about the Dwarfs Dragons, cause right now they are truly the weakest of the lvl 7 units...


The most physically durable creatures of the game need help? Do you think I need to furher assist 2 out of 3 creatures with the most pestering characteristic, that is Fire/Magma Shield? Because, honestly, I' don't! The only creature that possibly needs even further improvement is Lava Dragons' little firewalls, by increasing their intensity to 25-30 for each Lava Dragon, that's all!

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Postby okrane » Mar 19 2008, 12:07

Here's a last battle of mine which I won with basically only 5 stacks in my army:

http://www.speedyshare.com/263953987.html

Imps and cerberi were there just to die. Hellchargers died with no imput mainly. Notice the numbers on my devils and the battle itself...

The fight took place on the map Day of Collossus, week 4 day 3 or something.

Usually you can find the played multiplayer maps on ToH: http://www.toheroes.com
And skilled players who play the game online at http://www.heroescommunity.com

You'll see that the maps I am talking about contradict some of your affirmations and still they are among the most balanced maps as they are made by experienced players(150+ multiplayer games)

So stop by and join the discussions.

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Postby Titanus » Mar 19 2008, 12:34

okrane wrote:Here's a last battle of mine which I won with basically only 5 stacks in my army:

http://www.speedyshare.com/263953987.html

Imps and cerberi were there just to die. Hellchargers died with no imput mainly. Notice the numbers on my devils and the battle itself...

The fight took place on the map Day of Collossus, week 4 day 3 or something.

Usually you can find the played multiplayer maps on ToH: http://www.toheroes.com
And skilled players who play the game online at http://www.heroescommunity.com

You'll see that the maps I am talking about contradict some of your affirmations and still they are among the most balanced maps as they are made by experienced players(150+ multiplayer games)

So stop by and join the discussions.


Please, help me with what I do because I've never been there and the file doesn't seem to open. Do I have to have the game installed in order to watch it, because I'm not at my place today, where I have the game on my PC. Do I have to log in?

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Postby okrane » Mar 19 2008, 16:16

You have to put the replay file .sav into the folder

My Documents/My Games/ Heroes of Might and magic Tribes of the East/Profiles/Your Profile/Replays

If there's no such folder you create it.

And then you watch it under options->replays->combat replays

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Postby RustedSorrow » Mar 19 2008, 17:35

I see the point Orkane is trying to make. A well balanced map negates the disadvantages faced by factions or rather I should say that 'certain factions face disadvantages because of unbalanced maps as they favor certain abilities and discourage novel builds.'

But in the battle you provided the link to, I would like to highlight certain things:

1. Your hero was certainly superior to his in stats. Come on dude, you had +4 luck while he had -2. A wizard based on might is far weaker than a wizard based on magic. The opposing hero seemed a Jack-of-all-trades. He had triple ballista without those nasty fiery shots. I never ever use Mass Decay. There are always better things to cast. You are casting divine vengeance while he is casting rubbish spells. For it to be fair battle, I at least expect a phoenix or frenzy from the wizard. It was basically:

Superior demon hero+ Superior stats+ Superior abilities vs. a crap wizard

2. The battle is based on possibilities. Good luck on the right occasions can turn the tide of battle. What if his titan had hit with good luck on your seducer on the first occasion?


So what I want to say is that:
There many innumerable if's and but's in a battle. Once in a while, a weaker hero may just do everything right and have luck in his favor. While on most occasions, he will be overwhelmed by a superior hero. So IMO, the best way to check the balance of factions is by fighting a battle with heroes of two different factions built up to the best of their capabilities and with similar number of troops repeatedly and then see the outcomes. If the wins and losses of each faction are in a 1:1 ratio(approximately) then the factions are balanced. Otherwise they are not.

Plus, those Nival programmers must have worked very diligently to balance the various abilities that different factions have. And IMO they have done a good job. Sometimes, while trying to balance things even more we end up with something even more unbalanced.

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Postby okrane » Mar 19 2008, 17:42

I shown the battle not to show a good fight or anything, just to make you all see how the battles are fought. He lost because he had dark with no high level dark spells to cast.

I had no upgraded devils, no nightmares, no pit lords, light magic and he had dark and corrupted soil, Upgraded Titans, and Raksassas

So in a multiplayer game strange things can happen. And my superior stats were the cause of me playing the game, rushing through the map and creeping everything for experience and skills.

So you see, when talking about balance, not only the final battle counts, but also the road getting there...
Last edited by okrane on Mar 19 2008, 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Factions Balance

Postby Titanus » Mar 22 2008, 12:59

What's not to like about the most versatile faction of the game? What's not to like about the faction you have to put the most effort in, in order to be competitive? whose excellent (but not in an overpowered way) racial is the sole one into which you'll have to really delve, so that you get the most out of it each time you face a different faction? and when you do so, you get compensated for your efforts, leading an army that is tremendously difficult to dispose of... It's the faction that NEVER (AND I MEAN NEVER) shines in the hands of the AI, because the AI is stupid enough to treat it like any other faction! Put it in experienced human hands though and there is no race which it can't confront effectively, either might and especially magic.
However, its initial line-up has some significant disadvantages; either they suck (meaning they aren’t just average) offensively (Gargoyles family) or they suck defensively (Djins and Colossi families), while its building costs cripple their development and their resource-demanding special even more. Enough with further introductions though... may I present you ACADEMY!

Gremlin
Attack:2
Defence:2
Damage:1-2
HP:5
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:3
Shots:7 (5)

Master Gremlin
Attack:3 (2)
Defence:2
Damage:1-2
HP:6
Initative:11
Speed:4 (5)
Shots:9 (7)

Gremlin Saboteur
Attack:4 (5)
Defence:3
Damage:1-2
HP:6
Initative:12
Speed:5
Shots:9 (7)

Master Gremlin: Repair 2 times with 3 hp repaired per Master Gremlin (instead of 1 time with 5 hp repaired per Master Gremlin).
Gremlin Saboteur: Sabotage 2 times with 3 hp sabotaged per Gremlin Saboteur (instead of 1 time with 5 hp sabotaged per Gremlin Saboteur).
Gremlin Saboteur:No melee penalty

Comments: Gremlins have only received the usual +1 in initiative, also benefiting from my personal rule that creatures with 7 initiative move to 8, whereas their shots have increased by 2.
Master Gremlins have retained the attack rating they had up to Hammers of Fate (+1), while their speed has lowered by 1 in light of Gremlin Saboteurs' new role. However, I've modified their Repair special, now being able to use it 2 times instead of 1 (this statistic is found in Spellpoints1 of Master Gremlin folder, replacing value 1 with 2), but with reduced efficiency (3 instead of 5, in RPG folder). The reasoning behind such a change is that of all the creatures of the game that have the ability to resurrect their allies, Master Gremlins’ ability is the most restraining, since Dryads and Savage Treants resurrect each other, while Archangels may resurrect ANY living creature (needless to say that 1 Archangel's resurrecting capability of ANY living creature is 2.5 times better than 20 Master Gremlins' repair ability of Golems alone). Keeping in mind that the Repair special applies to War Machines also, this modification is rendered more versatile (since you may use it more than once now), but less powerful for each repair.
Honestly, I can't understand how a Gremlin Saboteurs' ability to stall an enemy war machine or a stack of enemy Golems or a tower in a siege hopes to make even an adequate substitute for repairing the Golems of their own army, even if their offensive characteristics and initiative are slightly better. Sabotage is hands down terribly inferior to Master Gremlins' Repair! The fact that Repair is always useful, fighting against neutrals and enemy heroes, whereas Sabotage is useful only when an enemy hero has War Machines skill and 1-3 subskills that augment each war machine, or when you go up against an enemy Wizard or neutral Golems (big deal, as if they are the hardest tier 3 creatures to overcome) calls for the addition of another special for Gremlin Saboteurs, that is No Melee Penalty. This way, their offensive nature is promoted substantially and you'll have to think twice before you upgrade Gremlins into Master Gremlins. In line with the Repair special modifications, the duration of Sabotage also activates 2 times now (this stat is found in Game Mechanics/Spell/Creature_Abilities/Academy/Sabotage folder), while their power is reduced to 3 War Machine or Golem hp per Gremlin Saboteur (in RPG stat folder).
Finally, I've decreased their attack by 1, because I wanted Stalkers to be the best in this department, whereas both upgraded Gremlins have also gained 2 shots.


Stone Gargoyle
Attack:3
Defence:5 (4)
Damage:2-3 (1-1)
HP:15
Initative:9
Speed:6

Obsydian Gargoyle
Attack:3
Defence:6 (5)
Damage:2-3 (1-2)
HP:20
Initative:10
Speed:7

Elemental Gargoyle
Attack:2
Defence:7 (6)
Damage:2-3 (1-2)
HP:20
Initative:11
Speed:7

Comments: I really don't understand how a Stone Gargoyle can ever deal equal damage to a Peasant or Goblin, that is the lowest damage of all creatures, while having half their growth... I don't expect them to be the epitome of offence, but stealing retaliations, blocking ranged units and providing the turtle formation for Gremlins (essentially being a punching bag) isn't my idea of a useful creature! They desperately need a boost in their damage (+1 minimum and +2 maximum), so that they contribute to the confining Academy's absolute dependency on its hero, till now. Moreover, they've gained +1 defence, because I wanted them to be the best of their tier in this department, due to their being made of stone.
Finally, Obsydian and Elemental Gargoyles have also benefited from the damage and defence changes Stone Gargoyles have received.
While revising Academy, I noticed that along with Fortress it has the most serious problems building its town. It is expensive, but its most grave disadvantage is its dire need of miscellaneous resources quite early and in great numbers each, for building certain crucial dwellings. Therefore, the redistribution the building costs of some of them was imperative. Stone Parapet now costs 10 Ore and 1200 Gold (instead of 5 Ore and 1200 Gold), while Obsydian Parapet costs 5 Ore and 2400 Gold (instead of 2400 Gold), because if a dwelling produces a creature made of stone it ought to have increased demands of ore to be built.


Iron Golem
Attack:5
Defence:7 (5)
Damage:3-5
HP:24 (18)
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:4

Steel Golem
Attack:5 (6)
Defence:8 (6)
Damage:3-5 (5-7)
HP:30 (24)
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:4

Magnet Golem
Attack:6
Defence:6 (4)
Damage:5-7
HP:26 (20)
Initative:10 (9)
Speed:4

Comments: If Gargoyles shouldn't be offence personified (although they are certainly entitled to some share) Iron Golems cry out loud defence! However their stats are far from this notion. Hence +2 defence and +6 hp, being the second most durable tier 3 creature behind Minotaurs, while their initiative moves to 8 as usual.
Since Steel Golems are the more defence oriented of the two upgrades, given their special is more passive than Magnet Golems' one (and to tell you the truth dealt damage stemming from unlimited retaliations is quite excessive), they've lost some offensive capabilities, whereas they've gained some defensive traits. Consequently, I've lowered their attack by 1 and minimum and maximum damage by 2 respectively, but on the other hand I've increased their defence by 2 and their hp by 6. Of course, initiative moves in this case also to 8.
Magnet Golems have received exactly the same modifications of Iron Golems, gaining +2 in defence, +6 hp and +1 in initiative.
Regarding Golem Forge, it costs now 5 Mercury, 5 Gems and 1500 Gold (instead of 5 Ore, 5 Mercury, 5 Gems and 1500 Gold), to make amends for the ore rise of Stone Parapet.


Mage
Attack:10
Defence:6 (10)
Damage:7
HP:22 (18)
Initative:10
Speed:4
Shots:5 (3)
Mana:20 (10)

Archmage
Attack:11 (10)
Defence:7 (10)
Damage:7
HP:32 (30)
Initative:10
Speed:4
Shots:6 (4)
Mana:36 (25)

Battle Mage
Attack:12
Defence:5 (9)
Damage:9 (7)
HP:31 (29)
Initative:10
Speed:4
Shots:8 (6)
Mana:20 (10)

Comments: Call me awkward, but can you digest that a grandpa may be twice more durable than a creature made of iron (Iron Golem) or better than several warrior units of the same level of other factions? That's why I've decreased Mages' defence by 4 and increased their hp by 4, so that the latter is more in line with their level and both of them less than those of my version of Iron Golems. However, mana is doubled and shots are +2, while regarding their spells, Fist of Wrath is now cast on Advanced level.
Respectively, Archmages have +1 attack so that they deal slightly better damage than Mages, -3 defence, +2 hp, +11 spellpoints and +2 shots. Additionally, Fist of Wrath is cast on Expert level and Fireball on Advanced.
Although Battle Mages are clearly less versatile than Archmages, they are pretty much the same creatures offensively. To provide someone with an extra reason to pick them I've raised their damage by 2, while defence has been lowered by 4 and they 've gained +2 hp, +2 shots and +10 spellpoints. Note that Fist of Wrath remains on Advanced level.
Despite being able to build Mage Tower when your town has reached level 4, 10 Ore and 10 Sulfur render its building difficult even on week 3, let alone week 2. Hence, Mage Tower now costs 5 Wood, 5 Ore, 10 Sulfur and 5 Gems (instead of 10 Ore, 10 Sulfur and 5 Gems) and Archmage Tower costs 5 Wood, 5 Ore, 10 Crytals and 5 Gems (instead of 10 Wood, 10 Crytals and 5 Gems)


Djin
Attack:12 (11)
Defence:16 (10)
Damage:12-16 (12-14)
HP:40
Initative:12
Speed:7

Djin Sultan
Attack:14
Defence:18 (14)
Damage:16-22 (16-19)
HP:45
Initative:12
Speed:8

Djin Vizier
Attack:13
Defence:19 (13)
Damage:16-19
HP:50
Initative:12
Speed:8

Comments: Each faction has its fly, like which certain units drop, but Academy takes the gold medal without breaking a sweat! I don't want Djins to be the most valuable creature or a tank troop, but if they die in my hands by dozens, while their special is totally unpredictable, what's the point in carrying them with me? hence +1 attack, so that they are at least on a par with the best upgraded level 4 units, +6 defence (because if I need to find a reason they scream semi-ethereal) and +2 maximum damage (I've kept their HoF damage, since I found ridiculous the decrease on account of their gaining 7 hp [from God forbid 33 to 40, while they lost 2 defence] and some magic proof! Should we punish them offensively because we've made them plainly below average defensively?). Furthermore, I've changed the number of times they cast a spell from 3 to 4 (this value is found in Djin's folder under spellpoints1), an increase that .
I've boosted Djin Sultans' offensive characteristics, since they are the less defence oriented between the two upgrades, without being better offensively. Thusly, they've gained +4 defence (for the same reason mentioned above) and +3 maximum damage (bringing it again to HoF levels), while they are also able to cast their spells 4 times instead of 3.
On the other hand, Djin Viziers have now +6 defence and they may cast their good or bad luck 4 times.
What's strange about Academy building costs is the fact that both Mage Tower and Pinnacle of Wishes are exceptionally difficult to build and cripple its development substantially, due to high demands of ore, sulfur and Mercury (especially the last one, which has already been used in the Golem Forge construction). Therefore I've reversed Pinnacle of Wishes and Altar of Wishes costs (5 Wood, 5 Mercury and 2500 Gold / 10 Wood, 5 Ore, 10 Mercury and 6000 Gold respectively).


Colossus
Attack:27
Defence:27
Damage:40-70
HP:205 (175)
Initative:10
Speed:6
Price:2800 (2700)

Titan
Attack:30
Defence:30
Damage:40-70
HP:280 (190)
Initative:10
Speed:6
Shots:10 (5)
Price:3800 (3300)

Storm Titan
Attack:24 (30)
Defence:33 (30)
Damage:20-35 (40-70)
HP:295 (190)
Initative:9 (10)
Speed:7 (6)
Shots: 0 (5)
Price:3800 (3300)

Colossus: Call Lightning (it deals 30 damage per Colossus)
Titan: Call Lightning (it deals 40 damage per Titan instead of 30)
Storm Titan: Stormstrike, Range Penalty, Call Storm (it deals 20 damage per Storm Titan, instead of 10)

Comments: Colossi are huge units but their hp are far from complying with their size. Moreover, they are slow walkers, therefore they are certainly entitled to some significant boost in durability. +30 hp corrects this deficiency, whereas to bring them to the standards of other unupgraded tier 7 creatures regarding their specials, Colossi now possess an extra special stemming from their upgraded counterparts, that is Call Lightning. Its intensity reaches the levels of the version Titans carry currently (30 damage for each Colossus) and you may find it in GameMechanics/Spell/Creature_Abilities/Academy/CallLightning folder.
The lack of durability is accentuated in Titans' case, because as of now they have essentially the worst hp of all upgraded creatures (even exceeded by Spectral and Ghost Dragons, keeping in mind that their growth is 50% better). Therefore, they've gained a whopping +90 hp, while Call Lightning is now cast on Expert level, dealing 40 damage per Titan, instead of 30. Finally I've given Titans 5 more shots, since I can't accept the most powerful ranged unit to be this limited in its self-reliance on ammo.
Studying Storm Titans I reached to the conclusion so many other players have reached to, so far; they are practically the same creatures with Titans and only their special singles them out a bit (veery bit). As their name indicates they should have a knack for anything that has to do with a storm, consequently, I decided to change them into a totally different unit, by adding to them the Stormstrike special and cancelling their ranged attack. Making Storm Titans an analogue to Thunder Thanes, significant modifications were required so that they don't become overpowered. First of all I've halved their minimum and maximum damage, because their other half is dealt through their new special. However, I've decreased their attack by 6, given that now they are able to attack even 8 enemies if circumstances allow it and I didn't want to make this half damage to multiple enemies that powerful. Defence rises by 3 and hp by 105, clearly becoming more defensive than Titans, since they've lost the latter's shooting ability. Being walkers now, Storm Titans have gained +1 speed (preventing them from wrecking havoc to the enemy from their first assault, unless they use up one of their mini artifacts for boosting their speed or unless they have tactics subskill), but have lowered initiative by 1. Regarding their Call Storm ability, it's improved by 10 points, dealing in total 20 points of damage per Storm Titan, while I've added the restricting Range Penalty, in the distant case the Wizard dons the Treeborn Quiver (the artifact that permits an army to have unlimited ammo).
To conclude, Cloud Coliseum now costs 5 Wood, 5 Ore and 15 Gems (instead of 10 Wood, 10 Ore and 5 Gems), whereas Thundercloud Coliseum costs 5 Wood, 5 Ore and 20 Gems (instead of 10 Wood, 10 Ore and 10 Gems). I would like to make special reference to the Colossi family prices, escalating to 2800 Gold for each Colossus and 3800 for each Titan/Stom Tiitan.

P.S. Among other things, I've also modified certain heroes' specials power, the most important of them being Jora's. When a hero raises the intensity of his/her special ability for each level attained, he/she does so always by 1% (Raelag, Sinitar, Shadya, Duncan, Freyda, Klaus, Grok, Agrael, Marbas and the list goes on) or even by 2% in some cases. Jora is the sole hero whose Feather Mage special increases by 0.5%... I wonder, is this fair? Change this value into 1% (RPGStats folder) and you will find out how she really shines even on 15 level (on 30 level and Expert Sorcery she acts as fast as a creature with 16 initiative).

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parcaleste
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Postby parcaleste » Mar 22 2008, 13:17

I think now, with 15 gems needed to built Titans I'll have them in week 4 8| (if lucky). Did you ever thought that some are in rush to built Titans even before Golems? ;|

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 22 2008, 13:19

zomfg titans with 280hp imba rofl uninstall the game please :D

On a more serious note, have you checked my replay. Mind that he had 10 titans pretty early in that battle...

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Titanus
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Postby Titanus » Mar 22 2008, 16:01

parcaleste wrote:I think now, with 15 gems needed to built Titans I'll have them in week 4 8| (if lucky). Did you ever thought that some are in rush to built Titans even before Golems? ;|


For starters, 20 gems for Titans not 15. BUT, 5 gems for Golems, 10 gems for both Mage dwellings, 10 gems for Raksashas, 15 gems for Colossi, 2 gems each Titan, 11 gems for mage guilds, 2 gems for library, 1 gem for arcane forge, loads of gems for mini artifacts... Do you think that gems will ever be enough?? Do you find Titans that easy to acquire? Don't rush so much!

okrane wrote:zomfg titans with 280hp imba rofl uninstall the game please :D


Not a chance! B-) In any event, Black Dragons with 300 hp, Red Dragons with 290 hp, Magma Dragons with 320 hp, Lava Dragons with 310 hp, Seraphs with 250... Big deal! Since everybody complains about my 7 level creatures, I'm on the right way! In the end, everybody has played HOMM III and nobody seemed to complain about 300 hp Black Dragons and Titans, Archangels' tremendous overall power etc. And now in HOMM V, that all other tiers have grown in power significantly, whereas tier 7 creatures have become shadows of their old selves simultaneously, most of you keep firing at me? I really can't understand you!

okrane wrote:On a more serious note, have you checked my replay. Mind that he had 10 titans pretty early in that battle...


If you managed to have Titans early enough in that battle (which I've failed to check till today, since I haven't got back home yet, but when I do I'll certainly let you know), then you may have any upgraded tier 7 unit of the game. I've made both Colossus and Titan dwellings quite expensive you know!

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Metathron
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Postby Metathron » Mar 22 2008, 16:02

I appreciate your efforts, Titanus, it's obvious you've put a whole lot of time and thought into these refurbishments, even if a lot of people seem to disagree partly or even wholly. I myself am unsure, I would have to test out such a mod thoroughly before making any decision, sheer numbers aren't enough for me I'm afraid.

As for your final contribution, I welcome most of the changes, because Academy creatures are indeed a tad too weak, even with the creature artifacts equipped. I only have problems with the Battle Magi and the level 7 lineup.

The Battle Magi I think have too low a defence rating. For me "battle" does not mean only attack but should also encompass defence, so I'd make it (at least) the same as the Archmagi's, that is 7.

As for the level 7s, they do seem grossly overpowered, though they may not appear so if compared with some of the changes you've made to other factions. Perhaps 210/220 for the Titans and 240/250 for the Storm Lords? (By the way, I've always disliked the name Storm Titan a bit, because it seemed like this is an improved version of the Titan.) There is a good argument for keeping the Titans' hit points on the average or below average side and that is that they are (the only) level 7 shooter: they don't have to spend their turns moving/flying over to attack their foes, but can attack right away.

I don't understand why Storm Titans have the range penalty seeing how they're non-shooters? Also, in addition to Call Storm doing more damage, you should also increase the penalty to shooters this ability does, perhaps to 4% per Storm Titan? (Or is this the range penalty you referred to?)
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

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Postby Titanus » Mar 22 2008, 16:48

Metathron wrote:I appreciate your efforts, Titanus, it's obvious you've put a whole lot of time and thought into these refurbishments, even if a lot of people seem to disagree partly or even wholly. I myself am unsure, I would have to test out such a mod thoroughly before making any decision, sheer numbers aren't enough for me I'm afraid.


HELL lot of time and testing, believe me! I like your spirit, because you say the obvious, ''I'll try them first and then I'll let you know''. I don't demand a decision out of any of you just by looking at sheer numbers... of course not!

Metathron wrote:As for your final contribution, I welcome most of the changes, because Academy creatures are indeed a tad too weak, even with the creature artifacts equipped. I only have problems with the Battle Magi and the level 7 lineup.

The Battle Magi I think have too low a defence rating. For me "battle" does not mean only attack but should also encompass defence, so I'd make it (at least) the same as the Archmagi's, that is 7.?)


Although I may sound crazy, I've tried to follow the pattern of what the initial stats had as much as possible. That's why I keep saying 'to keep the difference' in many entries. Regarding Battle Mages, beyond the fact that I wanted them to have inferior defence compared to Mages (because that was the case initially), I've made their damage exceptionally better than that of Mages / Archmages. Most importantly though is the fact that they're the only ones of the three that may be protected safely beside (and on the back row of) a large creature, without endangering it with their magical attack.

Metathron wrote:As for the level 7s, they do seem grossly overpowered, though they may not appear so if compared with some of the changes you've made to other factions. Perhaps 210/220 for the Titans and 240/250 for the Storm Lords? (By the way, I've always disliked the name Storm Titan a bit, because it seemed like this is an improved version of the Titan.) There is a good argument for keeping the Titans' hit points on the average or below average side and that is that they are (the only) level 7 shooter: they don't have to spend their turns moving/flying over to attack their foes, but can attack right away.


As I said in Liches' entry, large shooters are essentially half shooters; they fail to fulfil their purpose. In most battles with other heroes Titans are rendered mainly hand to hand warriors, not shooters. That's why they need a serious hp boost.

Metathron wrote:I don't understand why Storm Titans have the range penalty seeing how they're non-shooters? Also, in addition to Call Storm doing more damage, you should also increase the penalty to shooters this ability does, perhaps to 4% per Storm Titan? (Or is this the range penalty you referred to?)


They have the Range Ppenalty in the DISTANT case that the Wizard has the Treeborn Quiver on his person, hence even if Storm Titans have 0 shots they may be able to shoot, because they are written in the game as shooters, not just walkers. I wanted to limit this shooting ability (because I don't know how to remove it) by giving them the range penalty.
Regarding Call Storm, it reduces enemy shooters damage by 1%, with a cap at 90%, for each Storm Titan. I don't know, maybe you are right about an increase (but certainly not by 4%, it's too much. 2% is more like it). It's a matter, with which I have already occupied myself, but I'm still not so sure...

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Postby Night_Heaven » Mar 30 2008, 21:42

OOOokkkkk...no offense I am sure you love working at your mod and probably you will have many fans but I might aswell tell you this(good parts and bad parts)

1.After 1 hour or more spending comparing all the changes you have made to creatures,I can tell you from now that inferno and necropolis are very powerfull and neverless NOT BALANCED. Academy seems to have the worse amount of changes and will be absolutely riped put in pices by any of the necropolis on the map(and dungeon aswell). The new inferno can easely destroy academy in one battle with even half of the army.yes I am a fan of academy and i am not pleased with the new upgrades.

2.Fortress now are much more harder to beat.And you gave them more hp and more oportunities to stand against all. Nothing to comment here..I dont know the fortress well so...

3.Dungeon...mistress have icebolt and ..fly?wow..that would be something new.More creatures grow and some of the damange a little lowered for blood maidens but their grow rate incrase..hmm..lests say well done here thou the dragons are a bit to tough.

4.Haven...to few upgrades here...very little improvment and it will finnaly be conquered by inferno and necropolis.Not balanced.

5.Sylvans are very good now and a bit more balanced. no problems here.

6. I dont agree with inferno getting a super wooping upgrades and to be the most powerfull races from all. The extra attack,defense and hp...initiative and all are way to much. Even if you are a fan on inferno that is not a way to balance the game.

7. Necropolis can easly destroy half of the map with no loses.The creatures are way too powerfull and being unded to rezist most bad spells...IMBA.

8.And finnal remark.Academy seams to be until now the last of the races in your mod.Beside the fact that you will never have the chance of getting so much gems in a map,and the incrased cost O_O, the academy upgrades are very bad. The gremlins...still low on healt and attack(imps are way to good like..100% more better).Gargoiles upgrades arent noticeble when it comes to the fact that they are ussles even if you said you make them better.Golems arent that good either way the +6 hp is the only thing good you gave to them. You lowered the mages defense yay they are worse now than ever. The +healt is usless when they have the defence of a level 2 unit. The new and "balanced" dijns are quite in vain...the +6\+4 at defence isnt great neither game breaking. So...Titans and their upgrades will be meat for the great devils and arch devils. Nothing more to add here.Very bad changes I dont think I will play this mod lol.

Now is the time to give some rating to your new races based on the "balanced mod"
-Inferno -10\10
-Necropolis-9\10
-Sylvans- 8\10
-Fortress-10\10
-Heaven-3\10
-Academy-2\10
Anyway...good mod and I wish you best of luck in making the mod.And i suggest a really nice boosting at haven or academy otherwise this mod is not balanced mod is overpowering the inferno(your favourite) and necropolis races. Maybe you will name you mod "New powerfull aditions to inferno and necropolis".
See ya.


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