Factions Balance

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Titanus
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Unread postby Titanus » 13 Jan 2008, 09:51

Tensho wrote:No shots bonus to archers and there upgrades?Or you just missed that one.And you shoud not nerfed them ...i love them :(
There is no bonus for the Archers family; they're fine with their ammunition at 10 for Archers and Crossbowmen and at 12 for Marksmen. I should have added them though.
2-8 damage for a tier 2 ranged unit with above average weekly population and very good chances to be blessed isn't fun, it's pawnage (particularly in Crossbowmen's case). A comparison among them and the Spearwielders family (same level, slightly more weekly generation, random specials) clearly illuminates how tremendously overpowered they are.
Tensho wrote:btw nice buffing with priests!They really needed it...
Indeed, their damage output is quite low.
Tensho wrote:And i guess to balance,u nerfed cavaliers and made angels imba :-D
No, I nerfed Cavaliers because as of now they are unbelievably strong. Their speed, initiative, damage, specials and total numbers (due to Heaven's racial skill and Archangels Resurrection ability) as a whole make for an overpowered killer unit. They simply don't need that much damage to preserve their position in Heaven's army.
Angels' modifications are in line with those I've made to other level 7 creatures.
Tensho wrote:Also,i dont agree u gave peasants more dmg...dont forget that they arent the best fighting units due to there taxpayer skill.
Taxpayer ability doesn't help Peasants in combat. If they drop like flies taxpayer means nothing!

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parcaleste
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Unread postby parcaleste » 13 Jan 2008, 10:32

Titanus wrote:
parcaleste wrote:I was wondering about the Lava and Magma Dragons... As Resurrection or Raise Death or whatever like these spells can't be casted on them, is it possible to "provide" them with ability like the one the Magnetic Golems have?
Indeed, Resurrection or Raise Dead can't be cast but Rune of Resurrection partially make amends for them.
Yeah, but to cast it with success you have to lose two Dragons so to resurrect one; whatever ;|

And I think that the meaning of the peasants was not to be great on the battlefield, but extremely helpful with the money for the Training...

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Titanus
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Unread postby Titanus » 13 Jan 2008, 11:30

parcaleste wrote:
Titanus wrote:
parcaleste wrote: I was wondering about the Lava and Magma Dragons... As Resurrection or Raise Death or whatever like these spells can't be casted on them, is it possible to "provide" them with ability like the one the Magnetic Golems have?
Indeed, Resurrection or Raise Dead can't be cast but Rune of Resurrection partially make amends for them.
Yeah, but to cast it with success you have to lose two Dragons so to resurrect one; whatever;|
That's why I said partially. The point is that even them can be resurrected whatsoever.
parcaleste wrote:And I think that the meaning of the peasants was not to be great on the battlefield, but extremely helpful with the money for the Training...
Other tier 1 units have specials too, but theirs help them on the battlefield. Taxpayer (especially early game) yields minimal gold for the needs of the expensive Heaven town, due to Peasants' low numbers; it's not extremely helpful! To leave them out of your army because you have enough of your other tier units to deal with neutrals and enemies takes many weeks. As long as you carry them, Peasants (and to a lesser extent their upgrades) are in constant danger of suffering major losses in many battles.

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Tensho
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Unread postby Tensho » 13 Jan 2008, 12:13

Well i usually carry them with me,intil i get squires and marskmans
(beging of second week)
Then there is just no use for them.Well i make stacks of 1 unit,so i might take 10 peasants.
Last edited by Tensho on 13 Jan 2008, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
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JudgeMan
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Unread postby JudgeMan » 19 Feb 2008, 00:08

Hey, did Titanus die or something? I was really looking forward to a release of his work cause it seemed really interesting. Soooo.. bump!

Titanus, if you're still around, are you planning on showing us the remaining factions and/or releasing your mod?

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 19 Feb 2008, 09:46

Ubival had him murdered so as not to expose how bad they are at game balance... (6 days is nothing on a forum, relax)
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JudgeMan
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Unread postby JudgeMan » 19 Feb 2008, 13:16

It's more like a month (his last post is jan 13th) but yeah, all I can do is wait. I was just wondering.

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Mlai
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Unread postby Mlai » 22 Feb 2008, 14:08

I disliked his general ideas on game balance.

1. His intention is to make the power gaps between tiers into power gulfs. I will always believe that decreases strategic options. I carry this opinion from participating in the balance mod of another game.

2. He's not so much making a balanced version of H5, as he is making his own game. I never liked that balancing philosophy.

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Unread postby danhvo » 23 Feb 2008, 01:52

Mlai wrote:I disliked his general ideas on game balance.

1. His intention is to make the power gaps between tiers into power gulfs. I will always believe that decreases strategic options. I carry this opinion from participating in the balance mod of another game.

2. He's not so much making a balanced version of H5, as he is making his own game. I never liked that balancing philosophy.
Very well said. I fully agree, on both points.

Titanus, this is not to say that I don't appreciate your effort. You must love the game a great deal to put in so much work. That can only be good for the HoMM fans. Don't let me discourage you.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 24 Feb 2008, 12:04

JudgeMan wrote:It's more like a month (his last post is jan 13th) but yeah, all I can do is wait. I was just wondering.
Damn months... i hate paying attention to them...

@Mlai

Meh, it's not like it's gonna be the official version...
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Unread postby Ya5MieL » 26 Feb 2008, 15:45

While time is passing we could make our editions and argue about which one is better, thus losing days to irrelevant things! :P

What are we waiting for? :)

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Mlai
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Unread postby Mlai » 27 Feb 2008, 02:05

Ya5MieL wrote:While time is passing we could make our editions and argue about which one is better, thus losing days to irrelevant things! :P

What are we waiting for? :)
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=8358

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Titanus
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Factions Balance

Unread postby Titanus » 13 Mar 2008, 04:14

Hallo community! To begin with, I would like to apologise for my long absence, but family health matters prevented me from joining the forum for almost 2 months now.

Until now I have thoroughly covered 5 factions, therefore 3 more call for an analysis, that is SYLVAN, ACADEMY and STRONGHOLD. Today I'll deal with the faction I love to hate :) ...
In every aspect of life the renowned x-factor plays, in most cases, a defining role in the achievement of goals. HOMM V couldn't be an exception, but... the ease with which every faction in general and Sylvan in particular reaches to victory due to high values of luck is staggering! There are two things I fear most when I go up against an enemy. Paladins'/Champions' charge and Emerald Dragons' first assault. While the former may be avoided with medium chances, either due to Paladins' very good but not excellent initiative or due to their being walkers (therefore there is a chance that a creature of mine may be faster and as a result move in their way, preventing them from covering 8 tiles and consequently, attacking with full force), in Emerald Dragons' case the chances are infinitesimal! Their excellent initiative, along with a lucky strike to one or two favoured enemies simultaneously (due to acid breath) may very well predetermine the outcome of a battle before it even begins!
Although I can't interfere with Sylvan's racial skill, because on one hand I don't know where to find it and on the other, even if I find it, it will possibly be hard-coded, Luck skill is another matter. Go to RPG stats folder, change the luck value from dealing 100% more damage to dealing 50% more damage and all of a sudden battles become much smoother, more competitive and in the end much fairer. Luckily, you may also change Elven Luck subskill from 2.25 to 1.75 so that it's in line with the previous modification. Finally, to further enhance my argument I will stress that Leadership works exactly the same way, bringing a creature's turn 50% faster, not 100% faster.

Having these in mind...

Pixie
Attack:2 (1)
Defence:1
Damage:2 (1-2)
HP:6 (5)
Initative:12
Speed:7

Sprite
Attack:2
Defence:1
Damage:2
HP:7 (6)
Initative:14 (15)
Speed:7
Mana:10

Dryad
Attack:2
Defence:1
Damage:2-3
HP:7 (6)
Initative:13 (14)
Speed:7

Weekly growth: 12 (instead of 10)

Comments: Sylvan suffers from the same limited tier1-tier3 weekly growth that Dungeon does (to a relatively lesser degree though), consequently having an impact to its early game development. In light of Scouts family weekly growth increase, I've given Pixies family 2 extra units per week.
Along with the boost in numbers, Pixies need a little something to their offensive characteristics so that they don't falter that much compared to their upgraded counterparts. +1 attack and a standard 2 damage make them a more trustworthy unit early game, equivalent in this department to Sprites, but lacking their superior initiative and spellcasting ability.
Since I mention Sprites' spellcasting ability, I'd like to comment on Wasp Swarm spell. I disagree with the fact that on none level, Wasp Swarm merely deals some minimal damage and only on basic level does it start moving a target backwards on the ATB bar. The game is full of destructive spells and it doesn't need another exceptionally weak one. That's why I've modified it so that even on none level it moves an enemy 15% backwards, on basic 30%, on advanced 45% and on expert 60% as it currently is.
This modification serves two purposes in Sylvan's case; firstly, it augments its early game tremendously (by splitting Sprites into several stacks) due to the constant movement of enemy neutrals backwards on the ATB bar every time they cast multiple Wasp Swarms; secondly, Sprites become a very good substitute for Dryads even late game, because on one hand the Dryad-Savage Treant combo is too good to pass and on the other hand they might deter the most dangerous, at any given moment, enemy units from acting first. To make amends for their new trait, I've reduced their initiative by 1, as I've done to Dryads' initiative to keep the difference with that of Sprites.
Moreover, all tree members of the Pixie family have gained +1 HP, because I wanted them to be a bit more durable than most other tier1 creatures with more weekly growth.


Blade Dancer
Attack:4 (3)
Defence:3 (2)
Damage:3-5 (2-5)
HP:11 (12)
Initative:13 (11)
Speed:6

Wind Dancer
Attack:6
Defence:5 (6)
Damage:4-6
HP:12
Initative:14 (15)
Speed:7

Weekly growth: 11 (instead of 9)

Comments: Blade Dancers family (especially the upgrades) is lightning-fast, strong and vulnerable units, but I still find their numbers lacking, while they aren't more powerful than other tier 2 creatures. Thus, I've also given them an increase in their weekly population by 2.
Blade Dancers find themselves with absolutely no specials (along with Hell Hounds), therefore almost all their stats should receive certain improvements. Hence, +1 in attack, defence and minimum damage and most importantly +2 initiative, because, otherwise they are too slow compared to their upgrades (which is further accentuated by the absence of specials). I've only reduced their HP by 1 bringing it back to the value it had been given before the game was released.
Wind Dancers on the other hand is an opposite case; they are quite better than War Dancer by a good margin, displaying relatively better offensive capabilities (but not so situationally versatile), much better defensive capabilities and better speed. Consequently, I've lowered their initial defence by 1, because among other things I can't accept its being superior to that of the stony hide of the Gargoyles family; they gain enough defence already by their movement. Finally, because it’s the more defence oriented unit of the two upgrades, I've also decreased their initiative by 1.


Hunter
Attack:5 (4)
Defence:2 (1)
Damage:3-6 (4-7)
HP:12 (10)
Initative:10
Speed:5
Shots:12

Master Hunter
Attack:6 (5)
Defence:4
Damage:4-7 (5-8)
HP:16 (14)
Initative:10
Speed:5
Shots:16

Arcane Archer
Attack:7 (6)
Defence:4 (5)
Damage:5-6 (8-9)
HP:14
Initative:11
Speed:5
Shots:16

Comments: Hunters' damage is a bit too much, keeping into consideration their double shot special and the high chance at least one of their shots has to be a lucky one, that's why I've lowered their minimum and maximum damage by 1. +1 in attack and defence and +2 HP so that they are more in line with their level (especially their HP, which is the average for a level 2 shooter, while their defence is below average even for a tier 1 shooter).
Master Hunters receive the same reduction of their minimum/maximum damage by 1, while they've gained +1 in attack and +2 HP, basically for the same reasons mentioned above and for the extra reason that I wanted their HP to be superior to that of the more attack oriented Arcane Archers.
If Hunters and Master Hunters are excessive offensively, Arcane Archers are pawnage incarnate! Even without the Force Arrow special, their damage is easily the best of their level (save Minotaur Guards’ Double Attack) and essentially unretaliated, since we have to do with a ranged unit; if their ability comes into play they become probably the most distorting element of the game. A few days ago I pitted Sylvan (Anwen) against Dungeon (Eruina); in the ensuing final battle (which was a hell of a battle by the way, with an edge to Dungeon after about 20 replays), MY version of 483 Arcane Archers shot at 42 Black Dragons; favoured enemy kicked in, my modified luck kicked in and the result was…15.009 damage…bye bye 300 HP-Black Dragons! Keep in mind that on one hand my 34-level Anwen didn’t have Attack skill (therefore Arcane Archers didn’t have Archery subskill) but on the other hand Anwen’s specialty increased damage inflicted upon favoured enemies by 34*2%=68%. I can’t begin to imagine what damage they would have inflicted if their damage rating was 8-9 and luck at 100%. Having these in mind, I’ve reduced it by 3. Furthermore, to keep the difference between Master Hunters’ and Arcane Archers’ attack I’ve increased it by 1, but I find no reason why its defence should be equal to the initial defence of Iron Golems for example.


Druid
Attack:11 (7)
Defence:7
Damage:8-11 (7-9)
HP:34
Initative:10
Speed:5
Shots:7 (5)
Mana:17 (12)

Druid Elder
Attack:12
Defence:8 (9)
Damage:9-13 (9-14)
HP:41 (33)
Initative:10
Speed:4
Shots:9 (7)
Mana:22 (15)

High Druid
Attack:12
Defence:9 (8)
Damage:11-14 (10-14)
HP:44 (34)
Initative:10
Speed:4
Shots:9 (7)
Mana:18 (15)

Comments: Druids are good spellcasters but their offensive characteristics, compared to Druid Elders and High Druids are substantially weaker. Therefore, I've brought them closer to their upgraded counterparts by increasing their minimum damage by 1 and their maximum damage by 2, whereas their attack has risen by 4. Given their lower weekly population among other level 4 creatures, the highest attack rating of their tier is justifiable, as is the case with Druid Elders and High Druids. Number of shots and spellpoints have also increased accordingly, for the already mentioned reasons in previous entries.
Being far better spellcasters than their alternate upgrades, Druid Elders should have clearly worse physical traits than those of High Druids, hence, -1 defence and -1 maximum damage, while High Druids gain +1 minimum damage and +1 defence. However, both their HP are inexplicably low for their growth, being on a par with that of Druids and most other upgraded level 4 creatures; therefore, Druid Elders have become more durable by 8 HP and High Druids by 10 HP. Again, shots and spellpoints are improved, but as regards Druid Elders' spellcasting ability, they carry a far better version of Stone Spikes, being able to cast it on Expert level now.


Uinicorn
Attack:13 (12)
Defence:13 (12)
Damage:10-20
HP:57
Initative:12
Speed:7

Comments: Very well thought stats for the Unicorns family and the only modification that was needed is an increase of Unicorns’ attack and defence by 1 to keep the difference with those of Hell Chargers.


Treant
Attack:19
Defence:27
Damage:8-18 (7-17)
HP:175
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:6

Ancient Treant
Attack:19
Defence:29
Damage:11-21 (10-20)
HP:181
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:6

Savage Treant
Attack:21
Defence:27
Damage:13-21 (12-20)
HP:175
Initative:8 (7)
Speed:6

Comments: More for differentiation reasons (currently Ancient Treants have the same damage as Unicorns and Silver Unicorns) rather, than great substance, I've given the Treants family 1 extra point of minimum and maximum damage, while their initiative has risen to 8, because as I've said multiple tmes now, all creatures with initiative 7 move to 8. In RPG stats folder though, Savage Treants' initiative increase by 5, due to their Rage of the Forrest special, should change to 4, so that their total initiative still remains at 12.


Green Dragon
Attack:29 (27)
Defence:26 (25)
Damage:30-50
HP:190 (200)
Initative:12
Speed:9

Emerald Dragon
Attack:31
Defence:27
Damage:30-57 (33-57)
HP:225 (200)
Initative:14
Speed:10 (9)

Crystal Dragon
Attack:33 (30)
Defence:26
Damage:33-60 (30-60)
HP:225 (200)
Initative:15 (14)
Speed:9

Green Dragon, Emerald Dragon: Weakening Strike
Crystal Dragon: Magic Proof 50%

Comments: +2 attack for Green Dragons, because I wanted them to be the second best unupgraded unit in that department, after Devils and to partially make up for their low average damage, +1 defence to keep the difference with my version of Shadow Dragons, but -10 HP, because I didn't want them to be equal to the latter. However, they've gained a new ability, which is perfectly fitting to their standard ability, that is Acid Breath. Wishing to differentiate Acid Breath from Fire Breath and because acid generally tends to eat away flesh or any other substance, that is weaken them every passing moment, what's better choice for a supplement than Weakening Strike? Bear in mind that my version of Weakening Strike reduces attack and defence by 4, not by 2. If in Plague Zombies it just becomes an ok special, in Green and Emerald Dragons' case (with their very good to excellent initiative respectively) it's particularly potent!
Due to the effectiveness of Weakening Strike and for a reason that I'm going to analyse in Crystal Dragons comment, I've reduced Emerald Dragons minimum damage by 3, while their HP has risen by 25, in line with other upgraded tier 7 creatures, but much closer to the bottom of their level by dint of their fastness.
Crystal Dragons confront a serious problem with their Prismatic Breath skill; it hardly ever kicks in! I've played with them quite many times and honestly, I've seen Prismatic Breath in action no more than 5-6 times (it's fun when it does so though). Conseqently, I had to modify them so that they are a worthy alternate upgrade to the Emerald Dragons. +3 attack, +3 minimum damage and most importantly and +1 initiative, however their speed remains at 9. This way they act quicker, deal better average damage to one target but they don't have the Emerald Dragons' speed (and to tell you the truth, they don't need it, because their special doesn't need a specific angle as Acid Breath does). Emerald Dragons on the other hand, with 10 speed are bound to (depending on the obstacles of the battlefield) attack two enemy creatures simultaneously at the beginning of combat (Hero vs Hero situation). Finally, since Crystal Dragons have no Acid Breath and Immunity to Earth Magic, Emerald Dragons' Weakening Strike is replaced by partial resistance to Destructive magic at 50%.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 13 Mar 2008, 14:58

There's a reason why weakening strike is on low initiative zombies.

This way it's just : IMBAAA!

Anyway, your mod is fun, but only for "for fun" purposes. When talking about real balance lots of hours of multiplay must be in order to get an idea about what's wrong with certain factions.

As an example about how this plays out, think about that not only creature stuff count in a game. It's all about resources and about what the hero alone can do. That's why lots of experience is needed.

As an exageration think about making Black Dragons have 1000HP and 100-200 damage. This might seem strong, but how about making their building cost 150 sulfur. This way, you will never get them in time for the final battle and thus their stats won't count. See what I mean?

By all means have fun with your mod. I would love to see more wild stuff going on, which will make the game totally fun to play. But it will count as a fun mod and not a balance one:

What I mean is that I would like to see wild stuff like:
Furies with Hexing Attack
Angels with Life Drain
Champions with Rider Charge
Matriarchs with Implosion
Sprites with 25 initiative

well, you get my drift...

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RustedSorrow
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Unread postby RustedSorrow » 14 Mar 2008, 10:43

You say demon troops are weak. I really don't think so. Three of there troops: Cereberus, Hell charger and Arch Devil can reach the enemy in one turn. If they inflict high damage(thanks to your boosted stats) what will happen? They will devastate the enemy in one turn and not to forget the mana draining ability of imps and fireballs of Pit lords and ranged retalliation and bouncing fire attack of succubus mistresses. Really, I don't think they need boosts.

I think the main reason behind, some factions having better 1st, 2nd or 3rd tier troops is to either make them good rushing or bad at rushing factions.

Have you ever tried rushing with a dwarf???

Similarly, you can't make demons, a rushing faction.

As for sylvan, you have reduced the stats of master hunters. For me they are most awesome creatures in the game. For some they are the most unbalanced ones. I don't think so. If you block their ranged attack, they are totally useless. Teleport spell can be pretty useful here.

The current balance of factions is quite good. A player has to know the strengths and weaknesses of each faction. You can't make one faction good in everything. It's fun to different factions because they are really different. This difference makes the game interesting.

And by the way, Sylvan creatures are not insanely powerful. One time, I gave a warlock three black dragons and managed to drop two empowered
Armageddon's with warlock's luck. The enemy did not have emerald dragons but large numbers of other creatures. It was fun to see the obliteration. Then it was piece of cake to destroy his remaining army with my main hero.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 14 Mar 2008, 13:21

One time, I gave a warlock three black dragons and managed to drop two empowered
Armageddon's with warlock's luck. The enemy did not have emerald dragons but large numbers of other creatures. It was fun to see the obliteration. Then it was piece of cake to destroy his remaining army with my main hero.
Hmmm, is this heroes 5? As you know Armageddon affects black dragons, so I wonder how you pulled that off.

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Unread postby RustedSorrow » 16 Mar 2008, 08:20

The first armageddon killed 2 of the 3 black dragons and the the third survived I think with 3-4 HP. The hero had expert sorcery so he managed to cast one more. It was suicide but an effective one.

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Titanus
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Factions Balance

Unread postby Titanus » 17 Mar 2008, 04:58

okrane wrote:There's a reason why weakening strike is on low initiative zombies.

This way it's just : IMBAAA!

Anyway, your mod is fun, but only for "for fun" purposes. When talking about real balance lots of hours of multiplay must be in order to get an idea about what's wrong with certain factions.

As an example about how this plays out, think about that not only creature stuff count in a game. It's all about resources and about what the hero alone can do. That's why lots of experience is needed.
Tell me something... Have you read any of my previous posts? If so, you would have known that I've been processing these stats for the last 2.5 years, even before the game was launched! You would have known that I have had plenty of time to test and retest all these changes in dozens (if not hundreds) of games, before I come here and share them with all of you! In the end, do I seem to know what I'm talking about or am I a new kid on the block? Because otherwise you can't just toss a mere' Weakening Strike in Emerald Dragons is IMBAA', without explaining to me why it's imbalanced! You can't toss it, without trying it first (and you obviously haven't) in conjunction with my other changes of level 7 creatures. Yes it is imbalanced if you add it to Emerald Dragons and leave the rest of their stats and other level 7 creature stats intact, but if you take into consideration that my Emerald Dragons are the second least durable upgraded tier 7 unit, by a good margin actually (after Arch Devil and excluding Necropolis Dragons due to their 50% greater weekly growth) and they deal less average damage, you would likely give it a second thought!
How many times an Emerald Dragon is going to act before their stack is eliminited in a big battle? 5, 6, 7 times? certainly no more! How many creatures will they attack? almost certainly more than two, because every time they act the iminent danger is possibly different! therefore, their reduction in attack and defence will be split in multiple creatures. How is this imbalanced, even by the looks of it? The only time you can see Weakening Strike having a great impact on you is when you confront dozens or hundreds of them with 2-3 units of your army. Then again the impact is grave, either they have it or not, when you deal with them in such great numbers.
okrane wrote:As an exageration think about making Black Dragons have 1000HP and 100-200 damage. This might seem strong, but how about making their building cost 150 sulfur. This way, you will never get them in time for the final battle and thus their stats won't count. See what I mean?
You are totally right! it is exaggeration and my changes have absolutely nothing to do with what you propose.
okrane wrote:By all means have fun with your mod. I would love to see more wild stuff going on, which will make the game totally fun to play. But it will count as a fun mod and not a balance one:

What I mean is that I would like to see wild stuff like:
Furies with Hexing Attack
Angels with Life Drain
Champions with Rider Charge
Matriarchs with Implosion
Sprites with 25 initiative

well, you get my drift...
I didn't put that much time and effort to have the kind of fun you mean! Fortunately, I like and respect the idea of the game 'a little more' than that; therefore, sorry but I don't get your drift at all!
RustedSorrow wrote:You say demon troops are weak. I really don't think so. Three of there troops: Cereberus, Hell charger and Arch Devil can reach the enemy in one turn. If they inflict high damage(thanks to your boosted stats) what will happen? They will devastate the enemy in one turn and not to forget the mana draining ability of imps and fireballs of Pit lords and ranged retalliation and bouncing fire attack of succubus mistresses. Really, I don't think they need boosts.
Especially the units you mention haven't received boosts in their damage(unless you think the +2 attack of Cerberi is that game-breaking...). And be sure that if they go up against an enemy of equal power they will certainly not devastate him! For instance, Demon units are considerably fragile creatures (and their Hero development doesn't provide any serious assist in that department either) and that they deal variable damage (due to their wide damage range). Factions ought to have their strengths and weaknesses, that's already known and commonly accepted! The only radical improvement I did is to boost and differentiate tier 7 creatures, since all other tiers have gained remarkable power, compared to previous Heroes instalments.
RustedSorrow wrote:I think the main reason behind, some factions having better 1st, 2nd or 3rd tier troops is to either make them good rushing or bad at rushing factions.

Have you ever tried rushing with a dwarf???

Similarly, you can't make demons, a rushing faction.
Sorry but I can't follow that logic! Every faction should have good chances to develop properly, Dwarves being clearly the worst in that department.
RustedSorrow wrote:As for sylvan, you have reduced the stats of master hunters. For me they are most awesome creatures in the game. For some they are the most unbalanced ones. I don't think so. If you block their ranged attack, they are totally useless. Teleport spell can be pretty useful here.
I've reduced Master Hunters' stats a little bit, but Arcane Archers have received the most radical changes and these probably are the ones whom you really mean. Awsome as they might be, they are probably the most imbalanced creature of the game right now! Yes they can be blocked, but I really want to see how easily you are going to do that when they are defended by the tank called Ancient or Savage Treant. I would like to see how you are going to block them when you face essentially the fastest faction of the game (4 out of 7 upgraded units equal or basically exceed 12 initiative, while Arcane Archers' initiative isn't bad at all either). Arcane Archers is only one of your worries, and their 'awsomeness' as you most eloquently say (stemming from the best damage of their tier and their fearsome special), along with the power of Sylvan's other units, the tremendous power of Sylvan's racial skill and the extremes at which luck skill may reach, are elements that render them overpowered.
RustedSorrow wrote:The current balance of factions is quite good. A player has to know the strengths and weaknesses of each faction. You can't make one faction good in everything.
Please elaborate with a comparative example where my version of a faction is good at everything.
RustedSorrow wrote:It's fun to different factions because they are really different. This difference makes the game interesting.


And that was another of my puprposes why I proceeded to the changes I propose... to have as much differantiation as possible, without making a unit overpowered compared to their alternate upgrade or the same tier of other factions, and considering the framework in which their race functions.
RustedSorrow wrote:And by the way, Sylvan creatures are not insanely powerful. One time, I gave a warlock three black dragons and managed to drop two empowered Armageddon's with warlock's luck. The enemy did not have emerald dragons but large numbers of other creatures. It was fun to see the obliteration. Then it was piece of cake to destroy his remaining army with my main hero.
And this is proof that Warlocks are superior or Sylvan creatures aren' t that good? What was your hero's level and what was your enemy hero's level? You got lucky with those empowered Armageddons (situational) and most importantly Sylvan didn't have the only creature that could reach your Blacks with their first move. What if your enemy had Emeralds? Wouldn't he certainly attack you first, even before your hero could act (unless you had morale or an awful lot of initiative artifacts)? What if he got lucky and on top of that had the Shadow Dragons family in his favoured enemy list and favoured enemy kicked in? Wouldn't you be toast? You might refute that if he had Emeralds you would attack him with all your army, but then again you wouldn't have used Armageddon spell because you would have suffered serious losses yourself! Would all your army be enough for his forces and power, while you would use less radical spells? The possibilities are infinite...and objectively, Sylvan's creatures are very powerful!

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parcaleste
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Unread postby parcaleste » 17 Mar 2008, 06:40

I still think you should do something about the Dwarfs Dragons, cause right now they are truly the weakest of the lvl 7 units...

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 17 Mar 2008, 11:18

Tell me something... Have you read any of my previous posts? If so, you would have known that I've been processing these stats for the last 2.5 years, even before the game was launched! You would have known that I have had plenty of time to test and retest all these changes in dozens (if not hundreds) of games, before I come here and share them with all of you! In the end, do I seem to know what I'm talking about or am I a new kid on the block?
Never said you don't have experience. However, I think in order to do a patch of this type, the imput of many more players is needed. A community of pro players must all give their opinions about what works and doesn't work in a faction.
And I am not saying that all changes are bad. There are some good things you did. However more players need to think about these before saying it's a good mod.

I suggest you post your changes in the ToH section of the Heroes Community forum. There are many skilled players who will sincerely tell you what they think.

About weakening strike:

So it weakens the enemy attack and defense by 4 and it's not cleasible. So, I'm thinking about a mid-game fight(week 4 for example.). You have, say 12 Green Dragons, some unicorns, no Treants more likely.

All you have to do is split your stack into 2 stacks of 6 green dragons and hit the enemy damage dealer (their level 7 mostly) with these two stacks. Due to high init and speed you are more likely to pull this off before even the enemy has a chance of retaliating. And basically their level 7 unit will now have the stats of a level 5...

This is just an example about what might happen. It can also bring weird strategies involving 4 stacks of dragons and one stack of unicorns in order to weaken the enemy and finish him with the unicorns. etc...

So the thing is, when thinking about balance you should consider all possible situations, early-game rushes, mid-game fights, end-game big battles, with different types of builds, because most likely you will not have your whole alignment when fighting your oponent.

I have seen all your posts and read them carefully. For example you haven't even thought about Stalkers. Right now they are the essential unit for Dungeon and you even boosted their growth. If you had really played the game as you imply, you would have clearly known what a skilled Dungeon player can do with just a handful of these. And you still improve them. I would have expected at least an initiative nerf in order to make it harder for dungeon to hit and run, etc...

Again, looking lower down, I see you made deep hydras regenerate 125hp per turn. I say, you don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever gotten 3 Deep Hydras from a mercenary camp? If you did, you know that with only these 3 hydras you can creep almost any low tier unit, with a SECONDARY Hero. Now, if you up their init and boost their regen, all I will have to do is keep on pressing "wait" to instantly win any battle.

And you make Seraphs have Life Drain, which I won't even start on commenting.

Anyway, the bottom line is you should be working on a crazy mod, because, by all means this is not balance. I mean, you changed all creatures by so much that it would be a miracle that the game would remain remotely balanced.

There is a Tournament Edition Mod, made by russian players at HeroesLeague.ru which addresses slight imbalances. If you have the time to check it out by all means do, and you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, as I said, have your fun, but it's a shame nobody will ever use this mod in a serious multiplayer game (like ToH for example). I would have surely prefered a "Wild Heroes" mod, which would spice up a little my singleplayer fun.

I hope this helped.
You are totally right! it is exaggeration and my changes have absolutely nothing to do with what you propose.
What I meant by that is simply that stats are not the only think to take into account. But obviously you haven't put any thought into what I was saying and started flaming all the way. As the game is right now, i.e. with the current building costs, Dungeon will almost NEVER get Black Dragons before the final fight(provided one plays the usual ToH multiplayer maps, for example). So no matter what you will do to the BD stats, it will be more than irrelevant.
Emeralds however are really easy to get, and a skilled player will get the building week2 and the upgrade soon after. So basically, buffing both BD and Emeralds will lead to a relative buff to Sylvan over Dungeon in the mid game: which is crap, because we already know how strong Sylvan is late-game, and we don't want to make their lives even easier getting there.
Last edited by okrane on 17 Mar 2008, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.


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