Hi all.
I didn't put this in the mods section because I'm interested in balance discussion, not how to make the mod.
I'm no expert player. Thru perusing forums and playing single-player, I try to balance out some of the alternates so that it's not such a no-brainer for me every time I upgrade. Please comment on my private balance changes and tell me if I'm making my own game imba.
Necropolis
Banshee =
Increased Death Wail damage by factor of 2.
Lich Master =
Dmg upped from 17-21 to 18-21.
Mana upped from 19 to 24.
Vamp Prince =
Dmg changed from 5-13 to 4-14.
Hp upped from 40 to 43.
Init upped from 11 to 13.
Stronghold
Centaur Nomad =
Init upped from 10 to 11 (same as normal Centaur's).
Both Daughters =
Added Cleansing spell (10 mana cost, advanced level, same as Zealot). No change to their base mana (Sky has 12, Earth has 9).
Foul Wyvern =
Added Crippling Wound (what the dwarven spearmen have).
Chieftain =
Hps upped from 48 to 50.
Added Immune To Weakness.
[Crit] Please evaluate the balance in my personal ToE mod.
Death Wail definitely needed improving, and the changes to the Lich Master and Centaur Nomad are good.
Foul Wyverns seem to be universally hated, but I'm not sure why - I don't think they're that bad, they do more damage than paokai and survive longer. Why does nobody like them?
Giving Stronghold a cleansing spell - even though it's quite a small change - removes stronghold's only weakness, making them by far the best team in my opinion. I'd make it a bit less powerful...
Foul Wyverns seem to be universally hated, but I'm not sure why - I don't think they're that bad, they do more damage than paokai and survive longer. Why does nobody like them?
Giving Stronghold a cleansing spell - even though it's quite a small change - removes stronghold's only weakness, making them by far the best team in my opinion. I'd make it a bit less powerful...
Right now I'm still playing thru the Campaign. If anyone knows any other faction creatures that need modding, please bring it to my attention thnx.
@ TB5841:
Probably because Paokai can resurrect themselves and can damage strong stacks by attacking weak ones. Venom damage is 5x stack size for 3 turns... how many lvl 6 creatures could you possibly have in a MP game?
I think the Cleansing is pretty weak as I have it. The mana cost is 10, and Sky has base 12, Earth has base 9. Pretty much restricts these girls to doing nothing but eat gobbos for the first turn if they even smell a dark magician. A dark magician doesn't have to worry about Slow, Haste, and Chain Lightning from them, and he doesn't even have to do anything yet.
Also the cast level is Advance, which means at lvl 20 dark magician enemy hero, the Cleanse only has 35% chance to succeed.
Might Over Magic and Shatter Dark only affect dark magician spell power and spell level. It doesn't affect hero level which is what determines Cleanse success %.
@ TB5841:
Probably because Paokai can resurrect themselves and can damage strong stacks by attacking weak ones. Venom damage is 5x stack size for 3 turns... how many lvl 6 creatures could you possibly have in a MP game?
I think the Cleansing is pretty weak as I have it. The mana cost is 10, and Sky has base 12, Earth has base 9. Pretty much restricts these girls to doing nothing but eat gobbos for the first turn if they even smell a dark magician. A dark magician doesn't have to worry about Slow, Haste, and Chain Lightning from them, and he doesn't even have to do anything yet.
Also the cast level is Advance, which means at lvl 20 dark magician enemy hero, the Cleanse only has 35% chance to succeed.
Might Over Magic and Shatter Dark only affect dark magician spell power and spell level. It doesn't affect hero level which is what determines Cleanse success %.
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parcaleste
- Pit Lord
- Posts: 1207
- Joined: 06 Nov 2007
- Location: Sofia - Vulgaria
Actually I never use Paokai... it seays it can "regenerate and even add some creature(s) to the stack while feeding" (or smt.), but I never manage to do that. Wyverns are awesome with their regenerationtb5841 wrote:... Foul Wyverns seem to be universally hated, but I'm not sure why - I don't think they're that bad, they do more damage than paokai and survive longer. Why does nobody like them?...
Paokai are always the first stack your opponent will kill, unless you are playing someone stupid (or the AI). So often scavenger does not help much. And as Lightning Breath usually splits damage between 2 or 3 targets, the damage is never that high... Though I agree it's still more useful than Venom, which doesn't really do anything. But higher damage/attack/regeneration for Foul Wyverns makes it pretty close, in my opinion.Probably because Paokai can resurrect themselves and can damage strong stacks by attacking weak ones. Venom damage is 5x stack size for 3 turns... how many lvl 6 creatures could you possibly have in a MP game?
Stronghold currently are very vulnerable to Dark Magic, but ridiculously resistant to Destructive Magic. A cleansing spell as you've suggested it does actually make sense... but I think destructive magic needs to hurt them a bit more to compensate.
The Vampire Prince did need some improvement, but I think +2 Initiative is too much along with the damage and HP boost.
So for the purposes of playing SP, I'll leave Crippling Strike with the Fouls. Cuz yeah, AI's dumb and so Scavenge has a field day.
Basically, the Daughter Cleanse is yet another small band-aid, which when taken together with 1st Aid Tent, Witchdoctor, M over M, and Shatter Dark, finally mounts a reasonable anti-dark defense.
Vs Destructive Magicians... I can't help with that MU thru modding, because modding Shatter stats affects all 4 Shatter skills simultaneously.
IMO, Torpor doesn't remotely make up for loss of No-Retal, which is the reason for the +3 hps and +2 init.
But wouldn't that only be when the orc doesn't have Shatter Destructive? There shouldn't be too many orcs with both Shatter Dest and Shatter Dark, and Shatter Dark would be the one they all take 1st.tb5841 wrote:Stronghold currently are very vulnerable to Dark Magic, but ridiculously resistant to Destructive Magic. A cleansing spell as you've suggested it does actually make sense... but I think destructive magic needs to hurt them a bit more to compensate.
Basically, the Daughter Cleanse is yet another small band-aid, which when taken together with 1st Aid Tent, Witchdoctor, M over M, and Shatter Dark, finally mounts a reasonable anti-dark defense.
Vs Destructive Magicians... I can't help with that MU thru modding, because modding Shatter stats affects all 4 Shatter skills simultaneously.
Dmg isn't boosted. It fluctuates more widely than before. This benefits from Divine Strength but suffers from Weakness, and there aren't many Necromancers with Expert Light Magic.The Vampire Prince did need some improvement, but I think +2 Initiative is too much along with the damage and HP boost.
IMO, Torpor doesn't remotely make up for loss of No-Retal, which is the reason for the +3 hps and +2 init.
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Wulfstan8182
- Conscript
- Posts: 220
- Joined: 27 Oct 2007
- Location: The Heroes Round Table
<--- You're the guy hanged if you ever dare to touch my blacksmith!
Since I'm only playing campaign atm, I'll only mod a creature if it's a clear consensus that it's imba compared to its alternate.
Also I wouldn't mod the unit unless it's internally imba (too weak/strong compared to its alternate). Imba-ness in faction MU's is too complex for the purposes of this mod.
If there is interest, I'll upload this mod after this thread has gone on for a bit.
So right now, I'll take a look at:
-Cerberus upgrades
-Blood sister upgrades
-Hunter upgrades
-Raider upgrades
If you have suggestions for them, go ahead and post. I'll need ideas to start with since I'm not using them atm.
Also I wouldn't mod the unit unless it's internally imba (too weak/strong compared to its alternate). Imba-ness in faction MU's is too complex for the purposes of this mod.
If there is interest, I'll upload this mod after this thread has gone on for a bit.
So right now, I'll take a look at:
-Cerberus upgrades
-Blood sister upgrades
-Hunter upgrades
-Raider upgrades
If you have suggestions for them, go ahead and post. I'll need ideas to start with since I'm not using them atm.
Here are some suggestions of balancing:
Cerberus: receives weakening strike. Would be cool to weaken 3 units at a time.
Blood Sister: give her 25% incorporeality(like a dodge chance) - too much I guess
Arcane Archer: Decrease the damage from 8-9 to 7-7
Raider: they're ok
Other suggestions:
Pit Lords should be buffed imo. They are weaker than their counterparts: give them giant slayer and 29 mana
Wind Dancer : -1 speed
anyway this is just for fun... because the majority of players will still play multiplayer in the original form
Cerberus: receives weakening strike. Would be cool to weaken 3 units at a time.
Blood Sister: give her 25% incorporeality(like a dodge chance) - too much I guess
Arcane Archer: Decrease the damage from 8-9 to 7-7
Raider: they're ok
Other suggestions:
Pit Lords should be buffed imo. They are weaker than their counterparts: give them giant slayer and 29 mana
Wind Dancer : -1 speed
anyway this is just for fun... because the majority of players will still play multiplayer in the original form
When Okrane said Blood Fury/Sister, I assumed the Fury was too weak - I never choose it now. The Blood Sister is the better unit in my opinion - 21 HP as a pose to 16HP is a lot when they're always targetted first. Don't improve the Blood Sister. And I still use the Pit Lords.
Other balance suggestions are pretty good - Wind Dancers are too good compared to War Dancers.
Other balance suggestions are pretty good - Wind Dancers are too good compared to War Dancers.
the fury is marvelous when it comes to creeping and it is their only use, because in a hero fight they will die in one hit. The -2 init of the sister makes her not as viable for neutral creeping.
The HP boost of the sister is insignificant and they will still die in one blow. If ever, I think furies are better even in hero fights because with their high init they will go first and dish out some damage before dying.
Keep in mind, we are talking multiplayer here. I mean... the whole point of balance is relevant when regarding multiplayer. Owning the AI with overpowered strategies is fun and there's no need to change anything in order to "balance" it...
The HP boost of the sister is insignificant and they will still die in one blow. If ever, I think furies are better even in hero fights because with their high init they will go first and dish out some damage before dying.
Keep in mind, we are talking multiplayer here. I mean... the whole point of balance is relevant when regarding multiplayer. Owning the AI with overpowered strategies is fun and there's no need to change anything in order to "balance" it...
A 30% HP bonus (with +1 defence) is a significant boost - if they can last 2 hits instead of one, they will deal significantly more damage. In battles against enemy heros in the first few weeks, sisters are so much better.
Later on in the game, everyone has large numbers of high-speed units and admittedly either will die in one hit. But my first battle against an enemy hero usually happens within the first 2-4 weeks, and sisters soak up shots from master gremlins/skeleton warriors etc so much better than furies do.
As for neutral creeping, 14 initiative still makes sisters quite effective - not that warlock's ever struggle with creeping anyway.
Later on in the game, everyone has large numbers of high-speed units and admittedly either will die in one hit. But my first battle against an enemy hero usually happens within the first 2-4 weeks, and sisters soak up shots from master gremlins/skeleton warriors etc so much better than furies do.
As for neutral creeping, 14 initiative still makes sisters quite effective - not that warlock's ever struggle with creeping anyway.
OK, so my current thinking is:
Cerberus vs Firehound
Cerberus DEF 2 -> 3
Firehound DEF 3 -> 2
Hellhound speed 7 -> 8
Firehound speed 8 -> 7
Unless you guys feel that this tier has always been way too weak internally (like, you never use them when playing Inferno), and Firehound should stay at current power, with Cerberus receiving a straight buff.
Blood Fury vs Sister
Fury DEF 3 -> 4
Sister DEF 4 -> 3
This would reinforce the early creep utility of Furies, while the Sisters would still shine later in hero battles where 1 point of DEF is irrelevant to survival.
Or maybe it's the other way around. When picking Sisters, you're giving up that crucial 1st strike which I think is important when you have a stack of 300.
Master vs Arcane Archers
Master ATT 5 -> 6
Arcane ATT 6 -> 5
Master DEF 4 -> 5
Arcane DEF 5 -> 4
Master INI 10 -> 11
Arcane INI 11 -> 10
I don't want to give a tier straight nerfs. Basically having the new Arcanes is Nival's way to further buff Sylvan ranged power. I dunno why, but they feel it's necessary so it is. So instead of straight nerf on 1 unit, I distribute their stats so one doesn't completely outshine the other.
Arcane's power is in his no range penalty and in his force arrow, so he shouldn't have higher stats, amirite?
Grim vs Brisk Raiders
Brisk wheeling attack 0.25x power -> 0.35x power. (Yes it's moddable.)
Pit Lord vs Spawn
Mana 20 -> 24
I think the Lord is useful when you have fire-boosting or mana-boosting artifacts. Gives Inferno another ranged in sieges, in which the Spawn is useless (well, he could gate... after archers/casters have shot 3 turns, what with his init of 9). The mana buff is not because the Lord is weak; it's because his spellbook lacks internal balance. Why waste all mana on 1 (DMG 12x12) meteor shower when you can cast 2 (DMG 14x14) fireballs? The ones you're targeting are the range stacks anyways; you don't need to cover the whole battlefield with one weaker spell. IMO, his MS sucks. So now, if you do cast MS, you can at least fire off a vulnerability afterwards, which you can't if you fireball x2.
War vs Wind Dancer
War ATT 5 -> 6
Wind ATT 6 -> 5
War DMG 3-5 -> 4-6
Wind DMG 4-6 -> 3-5
What's the opinion on these changes?
Cerberus vs Firehound
Cerberus DEF 2 -> 3
Firehound DEF 3 -> 2
Hellhound speed 7 -> 8
Firehound speed 8 -> 7
Unless you guys feel that this tier has always been way too weak internally (like, you never use them when playing Inferno), and Firehound should stay at current power, with Cerberus receiving a straight buff.
Blood Fury vs Sister
Fury DEF 3 -> 4
Sister DEF 4 -> 3
This would reinforce the early creep utility of Furies, while the Sisters would still shine later in hero battles where 1 point of DEF is irrelevant to survival.
Or maybe it's the other way around. When picking Sisters, you're giving up that crucial 1st strike which I think is important when you have a stack of 300.
Master vs Arcane Archers
Master ATT 5 -> 6
Arcane ATT 6 -> 5
Master DEF 4 -> 5
Arcane DEF 5 -> 4
Master INI 10 -> 11
Arcane INI 11 -> 10
I don't want to give a tier straight nerfs. Basically having the new Arcanes is Nival's way to further buff Sylvan ranged power. I dunno why, but they feel it's necessary so it is. So instead of straight nerf on 1 unit, I distribute their stats so one doesn't completely outshine the other.
Arcane's power is in his no range penalty and in his force arrow, so he shouldn't have higher stats, amirite?
Grim vs Brisk Raiders
Brisk wheeling attack 0.25x power -> 0.35x power. (Yes it's moddable.)
Pit Lord vs Spawn
Mana 20 -> 24
I think the Lord is useful when you have fire-boosting or mana-boosting artifacts. Gives Inferno another ranged in sieges, in which the Spawn is useless (well, he could gate... after archers/casters have shot 3 turns, what with his init of 9). The mana buff is not because the Lord is weak; it's because his spellbook lacks internal balance. Why waste all mana on 1 (DMG 12x12) meteor shower when you can cast 2 (DMG 14x14) fireballs? The ones you're targeting are the range stacks anyways; you don't need to cover the whole battlefield with one weaker spell. IMO, his MS sucks. So now, if you do cast MS, you can at least fire off a vulnerability afterwards, which you can't if you fireball x2.
War vs Wind Dancer
War ATT 5 -> 6
Wind ATT 6 -> 5
War DMG 3-5 -> 4-6
Wind DMG 4-6 -> 3-5
What's the opinion on these changes?
1 in defense is nothing and 1 in speed is not significantCerberus vs Firehound
Cerberus DEF 2 -> 3
Firehound DEF 3 -> 2
Hellhound speed 7 -> 8
Firehound speed 8 -> 7
I would have loved the weakening strike...
So basically no change you say...Blood Fury vs Sister
Fury DEF 3 -> 4
Sister DEF 4 -> 3
As I said... if furies get hit at all it means you're doing something wrong.
+2 init sounds delicious...I love fast units.. although imba maybe... dungeon haters will start screaming that it's OP
The only problem of arcane archers is that in average they deal much more damage than the master hunters. So just lowering the base damage will do the trick. Init was ok, and defense it's kinda irelevant since they still die from 1 hit/spellMaster vs Arcane Archers
Master ATT 5 -> 6
Arcane ATT 6 -> 5
Master DEF 4 -> 5
Arcane DEF 5 -> 4
Master INI 10 -> 11
Arcane INI 11 -> 10
ooook...Grim vs Brisk Raiders
Brisk wheeling attack 0.25x power -> 0.35x power. (Yes it's moddable.)
What use will 24 mana do?Pit Lord vs Spawn
Mana 20 -> 24
You mean 1 Meteor and one vulnerability... hmmm... 29 was better... I never thought of them as strong before TOE. I suggested Giant Slayer to make them even more the bane of lvl 7's. With their poor init it won't be such a big difference.
The key here is that wind dancers can hit in one turn, whereas the other can't. The rest are just details... [/quote]War vs Wind Dancer
War ATT 5 -> 6
Wind ATT 6 -> 5
War DMG 3-5 -> 4-6
Wind DMG 4-6 -> 3-5
1 in speed is very significant when it's the difference between 7 and 8 (hitting in 1 turn).okrane wrote:1 in defense is nothing and 1 in speed is not significantCerberus vs Firehound
Cerberus DEF 2 -> 3
Firehound DEF 3 -> 2
Hellhound speed 7 -> 8
Firehound speed 8 -> 7
I would have loved the weakening strike...
Very small change because there's no consensus (at least in this little thread) that Furies are crap. At init 16, Furies are already the fastest things in the game, second only to Phoenix.So basically no change you say...Blood Fury vs Sister
Fury DEF 3 -> 4
Sister DEF 4 -> 3
As I said... if furies get hit at all it means you're doing something wrong.
+2 init sounds delicious...I love fast units.. although imba maybe... dungeon haters will start screaming that it's OP
Big changes are generally not good ideas. The stat changes are to soften the blow. Aren't Masters still better for elves with high luck skill?The only problem of arcane archers is that in average they deal much more damage than the master hunters. So just lowering the base damage will do the trick. Init was ok, and defense it's kinda irelevant since they still die from 1 hit/spellMaster vs Arcane Archers
Master ATT 5 -> 6
Arcane ATT 6 -> 5
Master DEF 4 -> 5
Arcane DEF 5 -> 4
Master INI 10 -> 11
Arcane INI 11 -> 10
[/quote]The key here is that wind dancers can hit in one turn, whereas the other can't. The rest are just details...War vs Wind Dancer
War ATT 5 -> 6
Wind ATT 6 -> 5
War DMG 3-5 -> 4-6
Wind DMG 4-6 -> 3-5
If that's something Wind can do, then that's something he's supposed to do. Different roles. For example, do you bring Wind to a siege?
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