So what's the final verdict on Heroes V?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby tb5841 » Dec 11 2007, 11:48

To gaspi2:

Coming with 20 peasants and simply run away unless AI itself engages? Not even battling? Fleeing with 1st stack that has the chance?
AI will still lose the units so why not enjoy the battle?


The AI still flees a lot in TotE, but I think this is pretty sensible - if it's going to lose all its units without killing much, why should it let you have all that experience? And I think sometimes when it tells you they've fled they may actually have surrendered and kept their troops.

And how can AI know what army I have? I was testing it - going Haven, didn't built any dwelling and watch - it came RIGHT on day 7 so precisely that AI engaged town at day 7.
When I had enough troops - AI didn't come.


They always attack towns on exactly day 7 - which again is a good idea - they often come near my town early when I have far more troops than them and they then run away again. So I think there may be an element of randomness in this, rather than the AI knowing what troops you have. I could be wrong.

Oh, and does AI has some creeping loses? I don't thing so, beating pack of imperial griffins in week 1 with 60 skeletons and 20 zombies when AI engaged my town...or had AI some of 100 skeletons or what? Don't thing so, before AI engaged grffins it had still 'horde' of griffins.


The AI definitely has creeping losses in TotE. In a game I played recently a hero owned by the AI lost nearly half its army on a Dragon Utopia, making him easy to finish off.

And using summon creature without wasting mana? Summnoing 150 peasants with 5 knowledge?


I haven't noticed this in TotE, I'll look out for it. But AI heros often don't have full mana at the start of a battle.

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Postby Mlai » Dec 11 2007, 13:40

Well they\d be hypocrits not to... (and it\s not from DoW, as all the units come from the tabletop game... they're getting "inspiration" from the source).

I was actually thinking of the way SC2 copied jetpack troops functionality from DOW.

Based on PC limitation at the time of H2 the art is brilliantly drawn... H3 and 4 did get worse.

I did like H2 so I agree with you there. I wouldn't call it brilliant, but it did have a classic European type of style which was fresh. You can only play so many Jpnese games in those days before everything becomes a blur (artwise).

And nostalgia is a stupid argument against the quality of art... as art is in the end all about evoking emotions from the watcher... if something made you feel good 10 years ago why wouldn't it also do it now

Oh yeah? Go watch a TV show cartoon you adored as a child, and tell me it's not nostalgia that's keeping you to the TV after 5 minutes. I'm not talking about shows with actual good art, of course.

Ubi's artist/s... but anyone can draw... the question is how well...

OK, then. Nival can draw *well.*

Art school... i bet you 10 to 1 that if i look i'll find that the artists that worked on the earlier HoMM's did go to art school.

It's an expression. The point is they suck and should "go back to school."

And you think i won't be able to find one famous artist saying another famous artist can't draw?

You know the saying that artists are snobby? It's true. That's the nature of being an artist; you can't be an artist if you're not independent and stubborn. Like you can't be a scientist if you're not a perfectionist. We sometimes concede things if we're talking to other artists of equal/higher skill, no guarantees. And with non-artist, forget about it, we don't take the opinions of non-artists very seriously. Even nice artists will just politely refuse/ignore non-artists.

Now, seeing how you're studying art do tell, what exactly is wrong with this picture:

The H2 black dragon is a great picture and a poor example. You're using a stallion to prove a point on donkeys. I really like how it's patterned after heraldry, which is a perfect tone for a game like H2.

Next, as I have said before "3D virtual reality" approach sucks for strategy games.

I completely agree that a 2D adventure map would've been great for H5.

Town graphics are a good example of strange design IMO. Many dwellings do so little sense compared to H3 towns.

Town design is strictly a matter of opinion. I agree Nival should've researched spelunking first before finalizing Dungeon, but the point is that the technical skill is apparently there. Concept quality is too subjective to argue over. You can say Nival thought more about evoking DE magical atmosphere rather than worrying about practicality when designing Dungeon.

And finally, if nothing else, the graphics of user interface in H5 is IMO alien while in H2 it only adds to the spirit. + Look at the background of hero portraits!

This is what I'm talking about. Take someone who has never played HoMM, show him these 2 portraits and ask him which picture shows more technical skill in art. Take your avatar; it also shows more skill than the burly knight jpg. Both are H2 but the quality varies widely. It's not the only example. It's art inconsistency like that, that made HoMM appear homely and fan-made.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 11 2007, 16:20

*stuff



Oh, well i was really arguing for H2 (which you mentioned by name in your first post) ... i don't really care for the rest... never played H1 and 3&4 are way too "digital"...



I was actually thinking of the way SC2 copied jetpack troops functionality from DOW.


Except there's no jump function like in DoW... I think SC2 Reapers may be more akin in concept to how WH40k TT works (they can move over obstacles with impunity whenever). Of course the TableTop being turn based DoW's approach also stays close enough.

I did like H2 so I agree with you there. I wouldn't call it brilliant,


For the graphics at the time it was... i doubt anyone could do better with the same engine and resolution.

Go watch a TV show cartoon you adored as a child, and tell me it's not nostalgia that's keeping you to the TV after 5 minutes.


See, it's mostly the story that drives me away... then again as a kid there weren't many cartoons on TV and i watched most of them on video... so i never really got to adore any bad animation. The ones i did remember with fondness and could get my hands on i did watch again from the beginning to the end... and they held up well enough that even poor video quality didn't stop me from enjoying them. Of course there might be some i don't really recall that i was able to watch as a kid despite the bad art, but i guess that would be one reason why i don't really recall those...

But as i said, i disliked Ledroit's art when i was a kid from seeing it once in a preview... and i disliked it right away when i saw it for H5, so i guess my tastes have been constant for a while...


And with non-artist, forget about it, we don't take the opinions of non-artists very seriously.


And yet non-artists are the one that ensure that you're remembered as an artist and not just some pompous bastard that thought he can draw/act etc... :tongue:


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And this is what i dislike about H5... her face is shaded with photoshop (or equivalent program)... the H2 picture is better by virtue of not looking as fake alone.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 11 2007, 16:38

ThunderTitan wrote: And yet non-artists are the one that ensure that you're remembered as an artist and not just some pompous bastard that thought he can draw/act etc... :tongue:

Being REMEMBERED as an artist as opposed to being ACKNOWLEDGED as an artist often shows the dilemma: that non-artists will often appreciate something as art only after some time when it becomes clear, for example, how influential something was or how prophetic or ahead of the times. What is today considered crap may tomorrow be considered art. Evaluatiing art as such is extremely difficult. Evaluating CONTEMPORARY art is a lot more difficult.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 11 2007, 16:43

Crap is already art... since 1917: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_%28Duchamp%29
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 11 2007, 21:37

Well. To discuss this you have to DEFINE art first. Which isn't all so easy. I'd say that the task of art is to show that there are no rules for art and consequently no definition possible.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 11 2007, 23:49

Art - mostly everything intended to stir emotion in the audience... anything not done for purely practical reasons... of course now there's good art, bad art and just crap art...


But i don't require a definition... my point was that who's an artist is a matter of opinion, that of the buyers/collectors/etc. usually... and they usually aren't artists. Adn yet artists only respect other artists apparently... which is funny.
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Postby Mlai » Dec 12 2007, 1:22

It's not funny you just take it for granted until someone comes out and says it. How many times have you heard them say "This may not sell as well as the latest trend/fad/fashion, but I gotta stick to my vision etc."

That's very admirable and all, but isn't that the same as saying "I don't care what the consumer thinks"? And yet we all applaud the artist/writer/director/musician for it? ;)

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Postby Muszka » Dec 12 2007, 3:27

Jolly Joker wrote:Well. To discuss this you have to DEFINE art first. Which isn't all so easy. I'd say that the task of art is to show that there are no rules for art and consequently no definition possible.

Good point. I agree that art cannot be defined exactly. But there must be a definiton for everything, and the best for art is:
Art - mostly everything intended to stir emotion in the audience...

But still "defining art perfectly" is just as big task as "guessing what women exactly want".
of course now there's good art, bad art and just crap art...

How can be that possible? What is a marvelous gem for one, can be a worthless piece of junk for the other. And if somebody doesn't likes Bethoween's 5th Symphony, it doesn't necesarily means that it has a bad taste. If somebody thinks that he's an artist because he makes special toilets, and he can find at least one more guy to support that opinion, than he certainly is an artist. And his work is art. Now I may find it garbage, but that won't change the fact that he is artist and art is what he had done.

Now PC and console artworks have another part, the evolution of programs and edge technology. Like in H2 dragon's case, a good picture in his time, but the technology is way too old. Now I would be really curious if the same artist/programmer would make another dragon with today's edge programming, what would be the result.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 12 2007, 5:53

ThunderTitan wrote:Art - mostly everything intended to stir emotion in the audience... anything not done for purely practical reasons... of course now there's good art, bad art and just crap art...


But i don't require a definition... my point was that who's an artist is a matter of opinion, that of the buyers/collectors/etc. usually... and they usually aren't artists. Adn yet artists only respect other artists apparently... which is funny.


Ah, you are in trouble with that definition (not that I want to discuss this): A pile of crap on the breakfast table would be art then - especially if it was arranged "in an artistic fashion". You might say it was virtually "crap art" and create a new style with a view on easy availability of the working material and based on the theory that everyone can be an artist... but chances are it would be either a case of extremely bad taste or a satire...
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Postby Pol » Dec 12 2007, 6:22

Is that an established term - a 'crap art'?
Cause I'm seeing it very often todays.
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Postby Humakt » Dec 12 2007, 7:16

Pol wrote:Is that an established term - a 'crap art'?
Cause I'm seeing it very often todays.


You may know that term better as a modern art. ;)
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 12 2007, 8:43

That's another thing: a style or direction can never be good or bad as a whole. No matter how strange or odd or whatever a "style" is, it may always produce a pice of art (and no matter how "good" a style as such is, you'll always find "poor" examples).
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Postby Muszka » Dec 12 2007, 11:06

Jolly Joker wrote:A pile of crap on the breakfast table would be art then - especially if it was arranged "in an artistic fashion". You might say it was virtually "crap art" and create a new style with a view on easy availability of the working material and based on the theory that everyone can be an artist...

Sadly, YES. Everyone can be artist, and everything can be art. You can take a pile of sh|t and make a castle of if, and that can be art. You can paint a painting with sh|t and there will always be someone who finds that beautyful, and eventually he'll pay for it, thus it's art.
Jolly Joker wrote:but chances are it would be either a case of extremely bad taste or a satire...

That's almost a whole different thing. Bad and Good were always only point of views.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 12 2007, 21:00

Mlai wrote:It's not funny you just take it for granted until someone comes out and says it. How many times have you heard them say "This may not sell as well as the latest trend/fad/fashion, but I gotta stick to my vision etc."

That's very admirable and all, but isn't that the same as saying "I don't care what the consumer thinks"? And yet we all applaud the artist/writer/director/musician for it? ;)


Not always... just look up Uwe Boll if you don't believe me...

Plus, not following the latest trend/fad/etc. isn't only about not listening to non-artists, one can also not follow other artists.


JJ wrote:A pile of crap on the breakfast table would be art then - especially if it was arranged "in an artistic fashion"


To some...
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Postby MistWeaver » Dec 13 2007, 2:19

Akul wrote:
MistWeaver wrote:*cough* AI *cough*


AI in HOMM was pathetic always. Thats why I mostly give bonuses to him to make him more entertaining. Or I don't play so serious.



No it was not. Its about "not too good, but playable" in H1-3, and "realy lame" in H4-5.
In H2 or H3, AI can give entertaining game at least to beginners, while playing without bonuses & cheats.
H5 AI, that you've put on the same level of lameness, can do something like a threat only on level with HUGE cheats. Furthermore, on large maps it goes offline in several weeks after game starts.

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Postby Mlai » Dec 13 2007, 4:44

I don't understand. You guys must be some type of genius players. I mean, in H5 I don't see examples of stupid AI. Unless you're talking about obviously-set script routines in campaign maps (such as an enemy with 10,000 dragons not coming to wipe you out because he's scripted to wait in his castle for you).

Every time I make a mistake on the map or in battle, and I say to myself "Oh **** I really screwed myself this time," sure enough, on its turn the AI comes to take maximum advantage of it.

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Postby MistWeaver » Dec 13 2007, 6:15

Mlai wrote:Every time I make a mistake on the map or in battle, and I say to myself "Oh **** I really screwed myself this time," sure enough, on its turn the AI comes to take maximum advantage of it.


Im not talking about battles right now. They are fine. But as for strategic map, I always play on "hard" (because on "Heroic" AI gets ridiculously low prices and gets to me on 2nd week with 7th tier creatures) and I can say AI is very weak there.

It can have uncaptured mines/not gathered resources near it's hometown after few weeks of the game. It doesnt really know when it should to strike at my towns and when its better to defend it's own. Often it fails to give his most powerful army to stronger hero. And it just does a lot of stupid moves, like board the ship instead of killing my hero that is 1 turn away. And as if its not enough, sometimes it becomes completly passive after month or so of the game. Oh yes, and it can block it's way out of the town with caravans :)

So its just the cheats that make it agressive, but not smart.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 13 2007, 7:26

Let's not start about the AI again. It has always cheated. In H2 at least it does get more troops out of its town and cheats like hell. AI-wise H 2 is probably the best game of the series. H 1 is probably even tougher in terms of sheer AI, but that's because the game is considerably simpler. For example, since there can only be one spell active on any given unit it's fairly easy to program decent spell-casting (either cast on the unit that is about to move, cast a spell with immediate damage effect or cast a negative spell on an opposing unit with a positive spell on it when you cannot hurt it until its turn). Compared with those H 3 has bad AI. It looks like it does most things right on the adventure map, but it's of no use. The AI just doesn't manage to be much of an opponent as soon as the game passes a certain early stage. H 4 AI is abysmal when left on its own. H 5 is providing at least interesting fights most of the time, and in general there will be something like a culmination. It feels, however, "alien" and has "holes" in its behaviour, which means it feels rough and unfinished on the map.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 13 2007, 22:23

But it was never this obvious... even H4's craptastic AI wasn't this obvious.
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