So what's the final verdict on Heroes V?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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ThunderTitan
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 8 2007, 19:23

Funny fact, SC had the same artist they're using now. And he's named after a hobbit...

And i've disliked Olivier Ledroit's art ever since i fist saw Chroniques de la Lune Noire when i was like 12... :vomit:
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 8 2007, 19:41

Well, I've disliked Lord of the Rings after I'd read the first couple of lines...
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Postby Muszka » Dec 9 2007, 5:54

Jolly Joker wrote:Well, I've disliked Lord of the Rings after I'd read the first couple of lines...

Yes, after the first 50 pages I thought it too that it will be boring book, but I kept reading, and when I got to the 500th page I was regretting that I have only 1000 left...
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 9 2007, 14:30

Jolly Joker wrote:Well, I've disliked Lord of the Rings after I'd read the first couple of lines...


Best reason to read the book... :tongue:


But that was more or less personal opinion, what was really important in my post was the fact that SC 1 and 2 have the same art director... so the differences only come from improved photoshop capabilities...

And what the heck happened to Mlai's second post?
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Postby Mlai » Dec 9 2007, 15:36

I got rid of it because it didn't contribute anything.

But in terms of HoMM, what changed was more than improved Photoshop capabilities. It includes improved artist capabilities. I don't see that as a point of contention IMO.

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Postby MistWeaver » Dec 9 2007, 20:28

Muszka wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:
Muszka wrote:The graphics will fade in time.


Not if they're done well....


Even if a game comes out with the double of the wonderfulest graphics, in 10 years it will be a crap for everybody who's not a fan.


Example #1 (5 years old)
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3500/h4ny8.jpg

To me this graphics looks wonderful, just like 5 years ago. And I don't see how it could look diffrent in next 5 or whatever years. So I think you are telling nonsense.

And the reason why it looks so, is because artist who drew it, was not really limited by current video technologies. Like heroes5, where quality of all models was artificialy limited to number of polygons that most of PC can show at acceptable FPS nowadays.
Or like heroes 2 where artists had to show a lot of game info in just 640x480. (still looks much cooler than most of H5)

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Postby Mlai » Dec 9 2007, 20:40

I actually agree that the overworld map could've stayed as 2D just like the example you've shown here. I find that I pretty much stick with 1 view anyways, and only rotate the camera to make sure I didn't miss treasures, and then pop the camera back to exactly how I had it. Otherwise it's easy to get disorientated on big maps.

But battle arena maps and models should still be 3D, so we get the dynamic camera focusing, and because I do rotate the camera around all the time when fighting. It's fun to watch armies fight from different angles.

I do not agree that H5 concept art isn't as good as H2. That's pure nostalgia talking IMO.

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Postby Metathron » Dec 9 2007, 21:20

Mlai wrote:I actually agree that the overworld map could've stayed as 2D just like the example you've shown here. I find that I pretty much stick with 1 view anyways, and only rotate the camera to make sure I didn't miss treasures, and then pop the camera back to exactly how I had it. Otherwise it's easy to get disorientated on big maps.

But battle arena maps and models should still be 3D, so we get the dynamic camera focusing, and because I do rotate the camera around all the time when fighting. It's fun to watch armies fight from different angles.


Spot on! :)
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Postby Muszka » Dec 10 2007, 3:25

MistWeaver wrote:
Muszka wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:
Muszka wrote:The graphics will fade in time.


Not if they're done well....


Even if a game comes out with the double of the wonderfulest graphics, in 10 years it will be a crap for everybody who's not a fan.


Example #1 (5 years old)
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3500/h4ny8.jpg

To me this graphics looks wonderful, just like 5 years ago. And I don't see how it could look diffrent in next 5 or whatever years. So I think you are telling nonsense.

And the reason why it looks so, is because artist who drew it, was not really limited by current video technologies. Like heroes5, where quality of all models was artificialy limited to number of polygons that most of PC can show at acceptable FPS nowadays.
Or like heroes 2 where artists had to show a lot of game info in just 640x480. (still looks much cooler than most of H5)

I know H4's graphics very well. And I like it, I'll like it even after 10 more years, and if won't be drastical changes in my life, than I'll like it till the end of my days. And it is so with H3 and H2. One may say that H1's graphics are awful, but I like those big dumb monsters. It's simply enough for me.
But I knew it all along, and I'm knowing it now too, that the main reason is that I like the fantasyworld that this game had given to me.
Just in brackets...
Muszka wrote:I think this is true for almost everything: "something stays beautyful for a long time only if you are emotionally connected with it."

You see? Emotions guide our decizions, opinions. If you show that pic. to an outsider, he won't have such great opinion about it. He'll likely say, that it's detaliated, and it has some beautyful points, but in general it's aged. If I look at the pic. I say that it's wonderful, because I'm thinking of its whole world, when I make my opinion.
I have a friend who is a Disciples fan, and I was argueing with the guy entire hours about which one has better graphics Heroes (be it 3 or 4), or Discibles 2. And We could argue thousands of hours more, and even after that he'll find H3's and H4's graphics a crap. He's not the onlyone who thinks it's so.

Also I think that saying that H2 has better graphics than H5 it's a bit though, if not the emotions are telling it.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Dec 10 2007, 7:21

Right, we could argue a lot.
I, for example, find the H 4 graphics too glaring, bright, sharp and colorful - it's a bit like the opposite of Disciples 2 which is blurry, grainy and pale in comparison. You may like one of those (and not the other), both in their own way or none at all because you like something down the middle, like H 3 or so.
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Postby Akul » Dec 10 2007, 10:07

My opinion on graphics:
I coudn't care less about the graphics. I play beautiful TES4: Oblivion and pixeled TES1: Arena at the same time and at the same level of enjojment.

Art:
While I did dislike H5 art first time I saw it, it has kinda grown on me. Still, they are too cartoonish for my taste.

Gameplay:
IMO, H5 is much, much, much better then H3 ever was. It has all that H1-H3 had, little of H4 and it gave many new unique features from which some will probably come in H6 (alternative upgrades). Since I am talking purely about gameplay here, I would say that H5 is the best in series.

Storyline:
Unlike most people from this forum, I love H5 storyline and lore. While I liked old HoMM stories, they were kinds dull... I don't say that Ashan storyline is great, but I do say that it has a soul and potential.

Editor:
Editor sucks, I admit. Hopefuly someday an fan-made editor shall appear.

Mapmaking:
H4 was and still is the best game map-wise, IMO.
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Postby MistWeaver » Dec 10 2007, 11:03

Akul wrote:IMO, H5 is much, much, much better then H3 ever was. It has all that H1-H3 had

*cough* AI *cough*


Akul wrote: Hopefuly someday an fan-made editor shall appear.

Yeah.. good luck with that.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 10 2007, 16:41

Mlai wrote:But in terms of HoMM, what changed was more than improved Photoshop capabilities. It includes improved artist capabilities. I don't see that as a point of contention IMO.


That's only your opinion, which is rather shaky based on the fact that you compared it to SC, which has the same artist, thus bringing into question your ability to judge.

Of course my judgment is also impaired as i have always disliked the artist's style... (IMO he plays Warhammer and thinks he can draw :tongue: )
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Postby MistWeaver » Dec 10 2007, 20:36

But I knew it all along, and I'm knowing it now too, that the main reason is that I like the fantasyworld that this game had given to me.


So graphics on screenshots(trailers) you could see before actually playing the game - means nothing to you ? Sounds like another nonsense to me.

Back to heroes - I liked H4 adventure map graphics long before game release. And I *would* like it even if I did not played any Heroes games before.

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Postby Mlai » Dec 10 2007, 21:56

ThunderTitan wrote:That's only your opinion, which is rather shaky based on the fact that you compared it to SC, which has the same artist, thus bringing into question your ability to judge.

That's my opinion and I'm an artist.

I only compared to SC in terms of 2D->3D graphics + better display qualities of modern graphics cards. In terms of raw concept art on paper, SC stands the test of time no matter what. In fact the design may be better than SC2 with its Play-Dough siege tanks and blatant ripoff of more Warhammer 40K units (this time from W40K Dawn of War).

In contrast, early HOMM has bad paper art period.

Of course my judgment is also impaired as i have always disliked the artist's style... (IMO he plays Warhammer and thinks he can draw :tongue: )

Unless you're blind, Nival artists can draw. Whether or not you like Warhammer style characters, or whether you like some of his conceptual choices (Hulkish Archdevil for example) is your opinion. But they obviously went thru art school unlike early HoMM artists.

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Postby Muszka » Dec 11 2007, 0:51

MistWeaver wrote:So graphics on screenshots(trailers) you could see before actually playing the game - means nothing to you ? Sounds like another nonsense to me.

I think that you missunderstood me. I didn't said that the screenshots and trailers meant nothing to me. That would be nonsense indeed. But I could hardly imagine such kind of graphics what could had stopped me in liking the game. I mean when some years ago I'd spotted the first concept arts I was extremly happy, and not because those were the beautiest drawings I've ever seen, but because it were artworks of a new Heroes game. That's true for the first screenshot, trailers, demo, than for the game itself, than for expansions too.
MistWeaver wrote:Back to heroes - I liked H4 adventure map graphics long before game release. And I *would* like it even if I did not played any Heroes games before.

And what should that mean? I've never liked any Need for Speed before Underground I, nor I liked racing type games, but I liked the ones after.
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Postby gaspi2 » Dec 11 2007, 6:55

I have just finished HoF Campaign missions:-/
Well, I must say that they were quite enjoying but still I have seen much better story in strategic games(for example tiberium wars or warcraft 3).
But several things:
I had to go back to v. 2.0
Simple those runes... :disagree:
But WHAT THE HELL DID THEY DO TO THE AI????!!!!!
Coming with 20 peasants and simply run away unless AI itself engages? Not even battling? Fleeing with 1st stack that has the chance?
AI will still lose the units so why not enjoy the battle?
And how can AI know what army I have? I was testing it - going Haven, didn't built any dwelling and watch - it came RIGHT on day 7 so precisely that AI engaged town at day 7.
When I had enough troops - AI didn't come.
Oh, and does AI has some creeping loses? I don't thing so, beating pack of imperial griffins in week 1 with 60 skeletons and 20 zombies when AI engaged my town...or had AI some of 100 skeletons or what? Don't thing so, before AI engaged grffins it had still 'horde' of griffins.
And using summon creature without wasting mana? Summnoing 150 peasants with 5 knowledge?
:disagree:
Maaaaan I know that AI in warcraft 3 cheats quite nice but THIS??!!
Please tell me that it has been fixed in TotE :baby:

I agree with my brother that UBI don't know how to do these things :disagree:
He still hates Uru, in his eyes the worst myst he ever played.

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Postby Akul » Dec 11 2007, 8:25

MistWeaver wrote:*cough* AI *cough*


AI in HOMM was pathetic always. Thats why I mostly give bonuses to him to make him more entertaining. Or I don't play so serious.

Akul wrote:Yeah.. good luck with that.


Yeah, I know.
Still, it ain't so hard to make as it may look like.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 11 2007, 9:01

Mlai wrote:In fact the design may be better than SC2 with its Play-Dough siege tanks and blatant ripoff of more Warhammer 40K units (this time from W40K Dawn of War).


Well they\d be hypocrits not to... (and it\s not from DoW, as all the units come from the tabletop game... they're getting "inspiration" from the source).

In contrast, early HOMM has bad paper art period.


Based on PC limitation at the time of H2 the art is brilliantly drawn... H3 and 4 did get worse.

And nostalgia is a stupid argument against the quality of art... as art is in the end all about evoking emotions from the watcher... if something made you feel good 10 years ago why wouldn't it also do it now (except tehnical advancements - thus photoshop)?

Unless you're blind, Nival artists can draw.


Ubi's artist/s... but anyone can draw... the question is how well...

Mlai wrote:But they obviously went thru art school unlike early HoMM artists.


Art school... :loll: i bet you 10 to 1 that if i look i'll find that the artists that worked on the earlier HoMM's did go to art school.


That's my opinion and I'm an artist.


And you think i won't be able to find one famous artist saying another famous artist can't draw?



Now, seeing how you're studying art do tell, what exactly is wrong with this picture:

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Postby Pitsu » Dec 11 2007, 10:58

ThunderTitan wrote:
Now, seeing how you're studying art do tell, what exactly is wrong with this picture:

Image


And note that H2 graphics is made in pixel art, without models. H3-4 are of rendered images from models and due to 3D, the H5 is made of models not images. The used techniques are quite different. Perhaps like oil painting and graphite...

Additionally, for H5 the graphics was certainly among the main priorities, since the game was meant to sell by look. I do not think that JVC valued graphics to the level of gameplay and as the major attractor of new fans.

Next, as I have said before "3D virtual reality" approach sucks for strategy games. Strategy needs accumulation of information over the events going on on the map and a good overview. Unproportional 3D or particularly 2D are much more functional for displaying information. (For those who have not read my posts before - 2D is in fact n-dimensional space of independent 2D layers and the same dimensionality can hardly be achieved with 3D). In summary, I find the graphics of H5 working against the gameplay.

Face it, old HoMM art was homely at best, fugly-AD&D-basementbrew at worst. I'm not even talking about graphics quality; I'm talking about the skill of the artists. I can draw/design better than that when I was a teenager. Srsly. But Nival artists are professional grade.


Town graphics are a good example of strange design IMO. Many dwellings do so little sense compared to H3 towns. It does not take a teenager, but rather a teenager on drugs to design minotaurs and hydras who live on stalactites. Why do all dungeon inhabitants live on stalactites? The other towns look quite artificial around their central pillar or structure as well.

And finally, if nothing else, the graphics of user interface in H5 is IMO alien while in H2 it only adds to the spirit. + Look at the background of hero portraits!
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